Ask Me Help Desk - Curioser and Curioser

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When A father or Mother has their Baby Baptized, It might be they are pledging themselves and their loved ones to God...Just as Jesus did for himself, or us.

I'm not sure I can pledge someone else to God. I can certainly pledge myself to God, and pledge myself to be a blessing to my children and raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And if infant baptism is done in that regard, then that's a much more sensible idea.

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And it fits in with the NT command to baptize the entire household (babies and small children included).

A command, it should be noted, that is found nowhere in the NT at all. As has been said dozens of times, infant baptism is mentioned absolutely nowhere in the Bible. There is no NT "command" to baptize the entire household.

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the idea that infant baptism results in being born again.

The idea of anybody's baptism being born again is also a misnomer.

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The idea of anybody's baptism being born again is also a misnomer.

I would agree with that.

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The idea of anybody's baptism being born again is also a misnomer.
I would agree with that.

So why belittle somebody's faith by discrediting Baptism? Should (can) a person be baptized twice (I don't know why they would)? It sounds like you believe they should

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So why belittle somebody's faith by discrediting Baptism?

You just discredited baptism, didn't you, saying it is not connected to being born again? My objection has been the exact same objection. I have belittled no one's faith, but I have advocated for the truth of the Gospel, as I would think you would do as well. The suggestion that infant baptism results in a baby becoming a Christian at three weeks or days of age is simply not a biblical idea.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is no NT "command" to baptize the entire household.

Here are two reports:
In Acts 16, when Luke reports on the conversion of two locals (a wealthy merchant named Lydia and a jailer), he tells us that Paul baptized their entire households.

I Cor. 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas.

And if a baby or small child is baptized, what's the harm? If anything, it will put the adults' rears in gear to teach that child about God.

There's no command not to baptize -- plus it is, for infant baptism, also a naming ceremony.

Those two passages are NOT commands. They are simply historical observations, and there is no reason to believe that Paul was including infants, who are not yet able to believe, as part of the "household". In fact, this passage would seem to indicate that they were not included since they had not believed. "And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God."

So you are still looking for even one reference to infant baptism. It's not there.

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And if a baby or small child is baptized, what's the harm? If anything, it will put the adults' rears in gear to teach that child about God.

I have no great objection to it so long as the people are not led to believe that the infant has become a Christian by virtue of being baptized. There is no biblical reason to advocate for that.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The suggestion that infant baptism results in a baby becoming a Christian at three weeks or days of age is simply not a biblical idea.

No one has said that!!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Those two passages are NOT commands.

I said they are reports!!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have no great objection to it so long as the people are not led to believe that the infant has become a Christian by virtue of being baptized. There is no biblical reason to advocate for that.

No one does. Being Christianized hasn't happened yet!!!

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No one has said that!!!

To be born again is to become a Christian. You are confused.

You claimed earlier, "And it fits in with the NT command to baptize the entire household (babies and small children included)." You are now backing away from that, so good for you, for there is certainly no such command. There are, as you said, "reports", but no commands as you had incorrectly tried to assert.

What do you mean by "being Christianized"?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

To be born again is to become a Christian. You are confused.

You are mixing up posts and comments. Take a nap!

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You are mixing up posts and comments.

It's what you like to say when you know you are out answers and basically whipped. Better luck next time!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's what you like to say when you know you are out answers and basically whipped. Better luck next time!!

At least wait until I've had a chance to post my entire response!!!

I am NOT out of answers!!!

I am waiting eagerly!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I am waiting eagerly!!

If there are no parents, family members, friends, etc. to support the child in its growing in grace and knowledge, then baptism is unnecessary.

It's unnecessary in any case. The parents, etc. can pledge to support the child completely aside from a baptism which, in that case, is a baptism with no meaning to the child.

You are entitled to your own views. If you want to believe that you were born again when you were baptized at three weeks, then go for it.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's unnecessary in any case. The parents, etc. can pledge to support the child completely aside from a baptism which, in that case, is a baptism with no meaning to the child.

You are entitled to your own views. If you want to believe that you were born again when you were baptized at three weeks, then go for it.

This was supposed to be a discussion, not a rock-throwing contest.

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Baptism with no meaning to the child

A child has a soul that “is truly a part of God above". Focus on this fundamental part of your child and see the good inherent in them. Moreover, just like when we hold a candle near a large flame it will be attracted to the larger flame, our souls are attracted to its Divine Source. When we train our children in the observance of a command (a good deed or religious precept),
we afford them the opportunity for their souls to shine overtly. Baptism isn't wrong at any age.

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When did you accept Christ as your Savior?
At 3 weeks of age. Baptism

Martin Luther was baptized at one day old and he used to walk around exclaiming "I'm a Baptized Man!" Why do you think he said that? Baptism first faith later?

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This was supposed to be a discussion, not a rock-throwing contest.

I don't recall rocks. There have been questions. That's what we do in discussions.

It is well known that Martin Luther became a Christian as an adult. Any infant baptism had nothing to do with it. His discovery of the meaning of Rom. 1:17 was key. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

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Baptism with no meaning to the child

A child has a soul that “is truly a part of God above". Focus on this fundamental part of your child and see the good inherent in them. Moreover, just like when we hold a candle near a large flame it will be attracted to the larger flame, our souls are attracted to its Divine Source. When we train our children in the observance of a command (a good deed or religious precept),
we afford them the opportunity for their souls to shine overtly. Baptism isn't wrong at any age.

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When did you accept Christ as your Savior?
At 3 weeks of age. Baptism

Martin Luther was baptized at one day old and he used to walk around exclaiming "I'm a Baptized Man!" Why do you think he said that? Baptism first faith later?

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infant baptism had nothing to do with it.

Says Who? I remember one of you saying that Jesus' Baptism had nothing to do with it either. If Martin Luther Babtism was irrelevant, then why did he proclaim it? I think Baptism has more to do with it than meets the eye. I would think of it as two Godly parents dedicating their child to God...which was a thing in the OT, why not the NT?

Says history books about Luther. He confessed a genuine faith in his twenties.

https://christianity.stackexchange.c...ation-by-faith

I doubt that Martin Luther went about proclaiming, "I'm a baptized man."

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I remember one of you saying that Jesus' Baptism had nothing to do with it either.

You don't recall me saying it.

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He confessed a genuine faith in his twenties.

Probably about the same time he confessed his being a Babtized man. Again, why would he exclaim that he was a Baptized man?

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I doubt that Martin Luther went about proclaiming, "I'm a baptized man."

That's the response I suspected.

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I doubt that Martin Luther went about proclaiming, "I'm a baptized man."

Well he did. You can look it up and get back to me.

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A child has a soul that “is truly a part of God above". Focus on this fundamental part of your child and see the good inherent in them. Moreover, just like when we hold a candle near a large flame it will be attracted to the larger flame, our souls are attracted to its Divine Source. When we train our children in the observance of a command (a good deed or religious precept),
we afford them the opportunity for their souls to shine overtly. Baptism isn't wrong at any age.

Does this resonate with you at all?

Look at the entire nation of Israel. They were circumcised on the 8th day. They had to recite scripture every day. They lived the life of a jew since the day they were Born. They had no say, they had no free will. Only until they were of Age were they allowed to walk out the back door.

I understood what you were getting at. But you turned the Corner when you doubted Luther ever exclaiming he was a Babtised man. At what age does one have to be baptized, before they can proclaim as being Baptized?

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You can look it up and get back to me.

You have a story you can't verify. It's your job to find support for it. I have no intention of going off on a wild goose chase for a story I doubt is true to begin with. But I'm sure you can find it with no problem.

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Baptism isn't wrong at any age.

I haven't said it is.

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I haven't said it is

I understood what you were getting at. But you turned the Corner when you doubted Luther ever proclaiming he was a Babtised man. At what age does one have to be baptized, before they can proclaim as being Baptized?

It wouldn't matter if Luther were here himself...you would simply go off as you always do...sticking to your guns.

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But you turned the Corner when you doubted Luther ever exclaiming he was a Babtised man.

I doubt it because you have a history of making wild claims that turn out to not be true. In this case, you have a claim you cannot verify.

Baptize them at any age you want, but don't pretend it amounts to Christian conversion or the new birth because it does not. And I'm sure you know that's true.

Earlier you mentioned baptism had nothing to do with it. I think that is going too far off left field.

When Luther was tempted by the devil, he would look at the words written in chalk on his desk: “baptizatus sum” (Latin for “I am baptized”). Do you think this might have helped him (at whatever age) overcome temptation?

I just looked it up. It's easy to find. You might not want to look it up being afraid you might learn something.

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Earlier you mentioned baptism had nothing to do with it.

This has been my contention from the word go. "The suggestion that infant baptism results in a baby becoming a Christian at three weeks or days of age is simply not a biblical idea." Do you have a problem with that?

Martin Luther aside, do you have a problem with the statement above, that infant baptism does not result in a baby being born again and becoming a Christian? Do you disagree with that?

I commend you for finding the ML story, but it's still all window dressing. Do you agree with the statement or not, because that's what this discussion is about.

The ML link. https://lutheranhuskerblog.wordpress...-for-1-7-2018/

A pretty good article on baptism, written by a good author, Sinclair Ferguson.

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/th...ing-of-baptism

baptism isn’t first of all a sign of what we do. It’s a sign that calls us to do something—to come to Christ, to live for Christ. And when we see that our baptism reflects Christ’s baptism—first in the river Jordan and then on the cross of Calvary—then every time we’re at a baptism, our own or others, the gospel is being preached to us in order that every day of our lives we might live as baptized Christians.

this is fromLegionare ministries.

I must have been reading the same thing

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It’s a sign that calls us to do something—to come to Christ, to live for Christ.

I think you have the order wrong. We first come to Christ, and then get baptized, but that's still close enough and it was a good paragraph. But I'd still like to know if you agree or disagree with this. "The suggestion that infant baptism results in a baby becoming a Christian at three weeks or days of age is simply not a biblical idea."

Skip it if you want to, but that's the core of this discussion, one which has been talked about pretty much enough.

Good night, all. Your ML story turned out to be a good one. Congratulations.

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not a biblical idea.

Isn't it...Biblical Theology?

(more of that same link)
You’ve probably seen that famous optical illusion where there’s either an old hag that you see or a beautiful young woman. And many people, if they see the old hag in the picture, seem to find it very difficult to find the beautiful woman. And you’ll forgive me for saying that sometimes I think it’s a little bit like that with baptism. Some of us look at it and see only ourselves and our faith decision. And forgive me for putting it this way, but if we think baptism is about ourselves then, well, we are more like the old hag. After all, we are sinners.

But baptism presupposes we are sinners and that we need to be cleansed, and that’s why it points us not to ourselves first, but to Christ. It points us, as sinners, to the promise of cleansing and renewal there is in Jesus Christ, and that’s why it gives us such daily reassurance. It’s not so much a message about our faith, but a sign that calls us to live by faith. So, we need to see something quite different in the picture that baptism portrays. Not ourselves—the old hags, the sinners—but the beautiful woman, or to put it in real life terms, the beautiful Savior.

Would it not point a child toward Christ too?

For a child to be told he or she has been baptized into a family? being told It's your Family...Much more than your biological family. I see similarities having to do with the nation of Israel and her offspring. I believe when a Gentile wanted to join with Israel, they went through a similar baptism.

As far as your question: I believe it has the potential.

Tired. headed for bed.

Edited.
P.S. Seems like we are on the same page. I didn't see the link you posted until after I posted. I also am headed for bed, didn't see your post stating that you were going nie, nie until after I posted. How crazy is that (posting the same link really blew me away)!

I'm all for baptism. I am entirely opposed to telling a person that infant baptism resulted in that person becoming born again. That is what I'm referring to when I say it is not biblical.

It's one thing to tell a Christian who thinks they know the love of God and is currently striving to walk in that love, That their baptism played no part in their salvation. Baptism is a Gift from God. It is a bit different when asking somebody "when they first became saved," and they say -"when I" did this or that. Salvation in no way depends on what the elect do or decide (Rom. 9:11).

Whether submerged or sprinkled or whatever. I've read somewhere (based on scripture) talking about Baptism being meditation.

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I've read somewhere (based on scripture) talking about Baptism being meditation.

Baptism equivalent to meditation? In what way?

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Salvation in no way depends on what the elect do or decide.

Depends on how you look at it. The Philippian jailor asked, "What must I DO to be saved?" The reply was, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

If a person comes to faith in Christ after a previous "baptismal experience?

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Baptism equivalent to meditation? In what way?

I'd have to look at it again. Something doing with the Jews Crossing the Red Sea. It has to do with Moses telling them to be still while walking through.

Baptism is a cleansing. Even if we confess Jesus as our savior. No matter what promises we make, we will assuredly break them. Knowing Jesus and being Baptized into his baptism might make all the difference in a person's life. Our conscious decision means nothing....we know this... when looking through the eyes of the OT covenant.

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Baptism is a cleansing.

Maybe, but not a cleansing of sin.

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Even if we confess Jesus as our savior. No matter what promises we make, we will assuredly break them. Knowing Jesus and being Baptized into his baptism might make all the difference in a person's life

I have no doubt that being obedient to the command of Christ to be baptized will make a lot of difference.

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Our conscious decision means nothing....we know this... when looking through the eyes of the OT covenant.

I'm not following you on this one. First of all, the NT is filled with commandments that require a conscious decision on our part. One of my favorite passage of scripture is the beginning verses of Romans 10. There Paul speaks of, "confess with your mouth...believe in your heart...believe...call upon the name of the Lord." Those all require conscious decisions.

Secondly, I don't see the connection of the OT covenant at all. Deut. 28 makes it abundantly clear that God expected the Jews to make a conscious decision to follow his law as part of the covenant. Maybe I'm not understanding where you are trying to go with that?

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First of all, the NT is filled with commandments that require a conscious decision on our part.

Same with the OT covenant. Regarding the OT - Obedience to the terms of the covenant is the path of life; rejection of the covenant is ipso facto the individual’s election of misfortune, unhappiness, and death. The latter cannot be seen as evil insofar as they are the just response of the offended deity. The covenant and it alone legitimates the corpus of behavioral norms in Scripture.

Here we are dealing with a New Covenant (Jesus fulfilled the Old). The New Covenant involves a total change (from the old behavioral norms) of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him. The New Covenant is the promise that God will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him.

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First of all, the NT is filled with commandments that require a conscious decision on our part.

Jesus (Love) always comes First. We see what happened when the Israelites made a conscious decision to follow the commands that were given.

It's out of Christ's love and what he did for us. Receiving that same love enables us to love him.
We all, at one time in our life, only read a bunch of commands. There comes a point in all of our lives when we know that there is no way, no how we can obey any command coming from God. That's why we Pray and ask for forgiveness and help. We pray that the Love of God gives us a change of heart.

Once we receive a change of heart we do it out of love...they are no longer seen as "simple" Commands in a book.

It's not giving your life to Christ Jesus. It's not living your life for Jesus. It has everything to do with killing that life that is in you, for Jesus...because he gave his life for yours...His love runs full circle along with God's love for all who participate in that love. God is wanting to live his life in you. Surrender all!

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That's why we Pray and ask for forgiveness and help. We pray that the Love of God gives us a change of heart.

All of which involves making conscious decisions, doesn't it? Love and faith mandate making conscious decisions to do that which is pleasing in the sight of God and in the best interest of my brethren in Christ.

Otherwise, I think your description above is quite good, especially this. " The New Covenant involves a total change (from the old behavioral norms) of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him. The New Covenant is the promise that God will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him."

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Love and faith mandate making conscious decisions to do that which is pleasing in the sight of God and in the best interest of my brethren in Christ.

I suppose. Right now I am trying to focus on what not to do. If it's hard for me to give something up then I know there's a problem. I will continue practicing to do that which I don't want to do. Until I have given all to my Lord. I have been Blessed with much. I'm beginning to understand not everything we receive is a blessing. we have a tendency to consume everything that comes our way. Jesus has done all the Good that I could ever do. I need not worry about that so much as worry about receiving and doing that which I should not receive or do.

It has a lot to do with the oaths I took. When I say took, what I mean is the oaths I've confessed were acceptable to God.
He reminds me of his great power and love when he brings to mind the Oaths I took. I know only he can fulfill them.

I love God, I don't want to piss him off.

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It has a lot to do with the oaths I took. When I say took, what I mean is the oaths I've confessed were acceptable to God.
He reminds me of his great power and love when he brings to mind the Oaths I took. I know only he can fulfill them.

But we are told not to take oaths. Jesus himself said this in Matthew 5.

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But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[

James said, "But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation."

Recently I was in court because of what I thought was going to be a routine court action concerning our inheritance. Our attorney, who gave me no preparation at all or even so much as a heads up on the deal, called me as a witness. The judge said the usual, "Do you swear to blah, blah, blah?" I was so bamboozled that I simply said "I do". I'm still aggravated with myself for doing that. Most courts will allow you to simply "affirm" rather than take an oath.