Well, another biased report goes down the drain.

"A database by the Chicago company Surgisphere Corp. was used in an observational study of nearly 100,000 patients published on May 22 in the influential Lancet journal that tied the malaria drugs hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to a higher risk of death in hospitalized patients with the virus.
The validity of the data, however, has been called into question. The Lancet first published an “expression of concern” with the study after “serious scientific questions” were brought to its attention. It then retracted the report altogether on Thursday."

So that makes the dufus right because data was pulled because of a technicality? Naw, it's just back to the drawing board.

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So that makes the dufus right

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Didn't say that.

You didn't have to say it but your characterization of it speaks volumes in that direction as did Toms assessment in his post on the subject.

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Well, another biased report goes down the drain.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Lancet's retraction :



https://marlin-prod.literatumonline....3620313246.pdf

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Lancet's retraction was based on lack of access to a database. Had the database been accessible, it is unknown what the results would have been. They may have been as originally stated.

Two other studies came to the same conclusion as the original Lancet study that there are no benefits from the drug and the death rate increased, and neither one used the same database.

They are studies by the NIH (National Institute of Health) and the VA.

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You didn't have to say it but your characterization of it speaks volumes in that direction as did Toms assessment in his post on the subject.

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It is positively amazing how you liberal dems can read minds. Really impressive, but I can do that as well. In fact, in your post I can see that your characterization of my characterization clearly shows that you are now a Trump supporter!!

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Lancet's retraction was based on lack of access to a database.

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There was more to it than just that. "The Guardian reports that Surgisphere “has so far failed to adequately explain its data or methodology” and says that the company’s “handful of employees appear to include a science fiction writer and an adult-content model.”

https://twnews.us/us-news/network-ne...tions-org-says

Athos it is 2 faulty studies that have shaped the debate about the drug The WHO has reversed course and is resuming it's test after Lancet's retraction . Before that the VA hospital test was equally flawed and misleading .Lancet's retraction is very clear . They can no longer vouch for the veracity of the study.

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Well the dufus said he was smarter than the generals so they are now speaking out against him, and the medicos will follow after he stopped listening to them too. No the world isn't crazy but the dufus certainly is acting like a nut!

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Mathis and Kelly should throw their hat in the ring . Presidents have used to Insurrection act before so to think Trump's suggestion of using it is an existential threat to the Constitution is absurd . 2 recent Presidents evoked it when there was only one city on assault by rioting and looting . I guess Bubba gets a pass when he used Federal Troops to assault the Branch Davidians because he never evoked it . History tells us that WWI Vets occupied the National Mall ; the' Bonus Army' .It was during the Depression and they were desperate and correctly thought they were owed a bonus payment for service in WWI . So about 20,000 marched on Washington with their families and set up camp on the Mall.
Hoover ordered McArthur to disperse them by any means necessary . Well most of the Vets decamped and left peacefully. But a group of them broke off and got violent .The police Chief was hit with a brick .One got killed when he grabbed a cop's night stick and the cop fired on him. McArthur sent his troops into action led by Ike and Patton. Patton had his cavalry mount up sabers drawn. They rode into the Vets and jabbed at everything in their path . Next came Ike's infantry lobbing tear gas . Then came the tanks for mop up . They rolled over the encampment knocking down tent and makeshift shacks alike . That cleared out the mall . But Mac wasn't satisfied . There was another encampment at Anacostia Flats, south of the 11th Street Bridge in what is now Anacostia Park. That was where a group of communist vets camped out . He had the draw bridge raised and access to the camp sealed off. Then a National Guard unit lit up the camp with flood lights . Then infantry units lobbing tear gas ,marched into the camp and torched it .

Now you should be relieved at how restrained the Barr led Federal officers were in clearing Lafayette park. Bottom line , when you are told to disperse by law enforcement you should do so. If you don't like it then take it up with a judge later .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Athos it is 2 faulty studies that have shaped the debate about the drug The WHO has reversed course and is resuming it's test after Lancet's retraction . Before that the VA hospital test was equally flawed and misleading .Lancet's retraction is very clear . They can no longer vouch for the veracity of the study.

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Thank you for the correction.

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Answer why I should obey a guy in camouflage and a gun but no identification or insignia?

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Oh I know those guys . They are used in Fed pen when prisoners get unruly .They are especially trained to give therapeutic back massages .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

History tells us that WWI Vets occupied the National Mall ; the' Bonus Army' .It was during the Depression and they were desperate and correctly thought they were owed a bonus payment for service in WWI . So about 20,000 marched on Washington with their families and set up camp on the Mall.
Hoover ordered McArthur to disperse them by any means necessary . Well most of the Vets decamped and left peacefully. But a group of them broke off and got violent .The police Chief was hit with a brick .One got killed when he grabbed a cop's night stick and the cop fired on him. McArthur sent his troops into action led by Ike and Patton. Patton had his cavalry mount up sabers drawn. They rode into the Vets and jabbed at everything in their path . Next came Ike's infantry lobbing tear gas . Then came the tanks for mop up . They rolled over the encampment knocking down tent and makeshift shacks alike . That cleared out the mall . But Mac wasn't satisfied . There was another encampment at Anacostia Flats, south of the 11th Street Bridge in what is now Anacostia Park. That was where a group of communist vets camped out . He had the draw bridge raised and access to the camp sealed off. Then a National Guard unit lit up the camp with flood lights . Then infantry units lobbing tear gas ,marched into the camp and torched it

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Historians have characterized this Army action as brutal and unnecessary.

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Now you should be relieved at how restrained the Barr led Federal officers were in clearing Lafayette park.

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One brutal unnecessary action does not justify another brutal action. One of those lessons most of us learn in kindergarten.

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Bottom line , when you are told to disperse by law enforcement you should do so.

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Bottom Line - Illegal actions by law enforcement do not require obedience. Resisters might lose the battle, but tyranny should always be resisted.

technically the demonstration itself was illegal

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When do you need a permit? Protests of 25 people or more on the National Mall or other National Park Service operated spaces in DC require a permit (click here to see a listing of those spaces) require a permit, as does any event that requires streets to be closed. The Metropolitan Police, because they lost an important court case, are required to allow permit-less marches in the street as long as they stay within a single lane. Demonstrations on public sidewalks are legally permissable without a permit so long as they don’t block the walkway and fewer than 100 people are expected.

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https://washingtonpeacecenter.org/gu...ermit-process/

If I run the city I strictly enforce the permit process. That's what Rudy did when he ran NYC .Demonstrations did not stray from permitted areas . I'm a big believer in 'Free Speech Zones ' that have been used by many blue cities like 1988 Atlanta during the Dem convention ;or WTO meeting in Seattle ;or the 2004 Dem convention in Boston. When the law surrenders the streets civil society dies .

Is that your excuse to deny citizens their first amendment rights? You could probably stand to get out of NY for a while and see the rest of your country.

What do you mean by a "free speech zone"? You are likely aware that universities use such tactics to restrict the right of free speech on campuses, and in particular of free conservative speech.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

What do you mean by a "free speech zone"? You are likely aware that universities use such tactics to restrict the right of free speech on campuses, and in particular of free conservative speech.

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Of course you have evidence of that conservative assertion of discrimination. Please share.

Evidence? Would you accept the ACLU's word for it? "On certain college campuses, administrators have created “Free Speech Zones” — spaces where people are allowed to speak, protest, or gather signatures for causes they believe in. While it may sound like these zones are designed to promote speech, they actually do the opposite by confining political expression to designated areas, often in out-of-the-way locations on campus.That’s why this week, in a legal challenge to Arkansas State University’s “Free Expression Areas” policy, we filed a friend-of-the-court brief along with the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education arguing that such rules violate the First Amendment."

When the ACLU and FIRE agree on something, then that's pretty significant.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speec...e-it-isnt-free

Or how about a court ruling???? You really should know by now that I don't make assertions I can't back up. "California judge rules all outdoor areas are free speech areas."

https://www.libertyheadlines.com/cou...will-continue/

Perhaps this doesn't bother you, but for freedom loving Americans, it swerves far too close to the old USSR. "Shaw was not in a college-designated free-speech zone at the time and didn’t have a school-endorsed permit to solicit literature."

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/...ublic-colleges

Good for you. Cool! So at least in California conservatives won their rights.

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What do you mean by a "free speech zone"? You are likely aware that universities use such tactics to restrict the right of free speech on campuses, and in particular of free conservative speech.

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I was being tongue in cheek a little . My larger point is that every one of these blue cities have permit processes that they enforce for almost every other street event .I posted the DC rules to make it clear that all the demonstrators were in violation of them and it was perfectly acceptable to forcibly remove them when they would not comply with the instructions they were given. You make a good point about the zones. They were used in the conventions to control the optics . How different is that than what Trump did ?

I agree with you completely, Tom. There is no unlimited right to gather wherever you want, whenever you want to do whatever you want.

Next you're going to tell me that Americans can't dominate the streets their taxes pay for. Who wrote those rules that says they can't? Maybe those rules need changing too.

I thought the dufus, the congress and all those elected folks worked for ME!

Would it be OK with you for a crowd of 200 to gather in your front yard, or gather in your living room? Don't you think there should be some kinds of controls?

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Who wrote those rules that says they can't? Maybe those rules need changing too.

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umm blue cities have been run by dictatorial control by the Democrats mostly for years . We in NY had a time when Rudy ,and later Bloomy until he went all nanny ,when we had a slight relief . So your question should be self evident .

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Would it be OK with you for a crowd of 200 to gather in your front yard, or gather in your living room? Don't you think there should be some kinds of controls?

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Clarify the why for me.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

umm blue cities have been run by dictatorial control by the Democrats mostly for years . We in NY had a time when Rudy ,and later Bloomy until he went all nanny ,when we had a slight relief . So your question should be self evident .

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You may not talk about race Tom, but you got that red/blue stuff down pat. Of course I'm having a broader conversation than just one city, your city, I mean you can holler blue tyranny but I cannot, unless your saying the protests are just in blue cities.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...you-get-riots/

The why? Well, you made this statement. "Next you're going to tell me that Americans can't dominate the streets their taxes pay for. Who wrote those rules that says they can't? Maybe those rules need changing too." Sounds like you don't think there should be any rules for people to follow. I think if they gathered in your front yard, you'd be hollering about the rules.

When Rudy became mayor he brought with him a policy called ' broken windows ' .It was a policy that called for the enforcement of even the smallest of the laws that dealt with quality of life .It meant that if a building had a broken window it was fixed or boarded up and made to look like a window . It was pure aesthetics. It brought with it a sense that there was order . It brought a renaissance to the city . With order came businesses that wanted to invest in the city . He was panned as a racist for that .

Fast forward to today. Now it appears there is a new broken window policy . Break enough windows ;demonstrate disorder torch and loot and destroy and some righteous anger gets sated .Eventually the rioters will get bored and go back to momma's basement ,or their on line basket weaving degree just like they did with Occupy Wall Street . But what they leave behind in some cases is irreparable . They are not just destroying property . They are destroying the order required to live in an urban environment .

The people of these cities were just granted a reprieve by their elected leaders to wade their toes into a bit of normalcy . Take a walk in the park ;go to the beach , OPEN THAT BUSINESS WE FORCED YOU TO CLOSE . Then what happens ? The hun marauds . Now they are forced back into their homes . Their parks are occupied their businesses sacked .Non criminals are afraid to go into the cities . Those who can leave do so ;just like what happened the last time there was a waive of riots in the late 60s .

Businesses that were going to have a hell of a time rebounding now have to consider the added expense of replacing merchandize and windows if they are lucky .Some may have to relocate if they choose to reopen at all because their business was burned to the ground .As police pull back from active policing the criminals become emboldened ESPECIALLY in the minority neighborhoods . So who is this rioting serving ?

I'm sure you may find an example where this is happening in a city run by conservatives . But you won't find many . It is in the blue cities where police are considered the big problem instead of the bad cop the exception. As mentioned ,in some extreme cases city councils are considering defunding the police force. All Out Crazy certainly believes that . For the rest they offer platitude condemnations of the violence but in their hearts believe the rioting is justified.


What they should be doing is recognizing that the rioting does not help their cause .The murder of George Floyd forces us to examine policing in this country and peaceful protesting is justified . But as the violence continues Americans of good will will rally behind the police (in NYC the injured cops #s are over 100 ,and I'm sure other cities have similar) and safe streets agendas will overtake reform agendas . If Dem leaders of cities do not take back control of their cities from the marauders then they will be complicit in the destruction.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The why? Well, you made this statement. "Next you're going to tell me that Americans can't dominate the streets their taxes pay for. Who wrote those rules that says they can't? Maybe those rules need changing too." Sounds like you don't think there should be any rules for people to follow. I think if they gathered in your front yard, you'd be hollering about the rules.

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The why is why would they be in my front yard? Sure I believe in rules. FAIR ONES.

@Tom

Stop and frisk was racist, and looters and arsonist and vandals are criminals. Protestors are peaceful and lawful. Let's learn the differences and deal accordingly.

Rudy is a nut, a shell of his former self.

I did not mention stop and frisk .It can arguably be said that it became racist in the Bloomberg era .He said in 2015 'throw em against a wall and frisk em' . The intent of the policy in NY was protecting African Americans, who were disproportionately the victims of crime.

The policy itself goes back to a SCOTUS decision in 1968 (the liberal Warren Court ) ; 'Terry v Ohio. '. The court gave police the power to stop and frisk a person if the officer has a reasonable suspicion the person is involved in criminalized activity or is armed and dangerous . Reasonable suspicion cannot be triggered by the race of an individual without more. Stop and frisk actually serves important ends by keeping neighborhoods safe .It is in fact still used in EVERY state in the nation and the federal government .

Bloomy allowed arbitrary use of it and he and the NYC police were smacked down by Judge Shira Scheindlin('Floyd v City of NY' ). But Bloomy's application of the law was the exception the judge made it clear the law itself is constitutional. Rudy introduced it when NYC had one of the highest murder rates in the nation . Stop and Frisk's aimed to reduce violence by arresting those illegally carrying guns and deterring would be criminals from carrying them in the first place. AND IT WORKED .

Like it or not ,the riots ,arson vandalism ,assaults on police and innocent civilians are a part of the protest .If you want to differentiate then you need to do more than blame the policing . If it is not up to the leaders of the demonstrations to stop it then it is up to the police . If the police can't stop it then it is up to governors to mobilize the guard . If they refuse or the guard can't do it then it is up to the Federal Government which has a mandate in the Constitution to insure domestic tranquility .

1. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Bloomie will forever be stained by his policy.

2. Roust up every black and latino you see and check them for criminality. Racial profiling, and yes it's always been a police policy along with speed traps and the like. Revenue raisers for sure, in the short term but blacks and latinos feeling safer? Maybe white people do with an active police force seeking criminals of color, but we don't. We see the long term effects of such policies.

3. Very dubious if the S&F worked since crime went down across the board nationwide, and like I said the long term effect of racial profiling is a deep seated resentment by minorities we see today. Add videos, we have protests and riots.

4. That's the point, we don't like it, since it's really easy to lump the citizen exercising his 1st amendment rights treated as the criminals. That's what S&F and racial profiling has gotten us. Just another door in the school to jail pipeline for the actions of the few. A huge few since about the only area of agreement we have is protesters actually do present the opportunity such criminals love, but taking away legit rights is not the way to combat such crimes.

However I won't even pretend to have a clue to solving the huge issues of the big city Tom, and can only echo the obvious criticisms that sure feeds the notions of racism so easily ignored and swept under the rug no matter how many lumps and bullet holes and wrongful deaths that occur. It was a super complex problem in my home city and can imagine more so in BIGTown.

I'll ask you the same question I asked JL, why is THIS protest so diverse, and widespread?

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why is THIS protest so diverse, and widespread?

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woke the constant pounding on the youth that they should remorse their 'white guilt ' .

https://twitter.com/PreetRang/status...726581765?s=20

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status...31725004288009

The model here is Mao's cultural revolution . The supposed oppressors confess their crimes or risk, like Drew Brees ,did the possibility of cultural isolation .I know Mao took it to the extreme . But the template is there .

Grant Napear, a Sacramento Kings play by play announcer made the unforgivable mistake of responding to a question about Black Lives Matter by saying all lives matter . He was forced to resign .Napear’s career is over. Drew Brees has done so much for the New Orleans community as the star QB of the Saints . But he made the unpardonable sin of defending the flag. He has since twice apologized and is hoping he can salvage his long built reputation .

If you follow the NY Slimes 1619 project you see that the reeducation of America starts with the premise that America was founded to protect slavery ,that the constitution was established for that purpose and it's system is the source of societies ills ,that America is inherently evil and had to be brought down and rebuilt . Like Mao's cultural revolution ,if you don't get on board that agenda then there is no place for you in America, That lesson has been hammered into the youth on campus . So of course the protests are diverse . There is not much room left in this country for free and independent thought .
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...619-intro.html

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The model here is Mao's cultural revolution . The supposed oppressors confess their crimes or risk, like Drew Brees ,did the possibility of cultural isolation .

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Exactly correct.

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There is not much room left in this country for free and independent thought .

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Nothing is more dangerous to those who want to dominate and control than free and independent thought. "We will tell you what to think."

I seem to recall a certain pres suggesting this very thing. "Russia Developing Coronavirus Treatment That Disinfects the Body With UV Light From Inside."

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-deve...kkLKNGXatrUyPs

Vlad and the dufus on the same page? Couldn't read the article, but these two have been dancing together a long time, and neither is legit.

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Vlad and the dufus on the same page? Couldn't read the article, but these two have been dancing together a long time, and neither is legit.

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Isn't that kind of the usual robotic response from you? Trump is bad!

He is bad! For people and robots. All the liberals thinks so even if you hate us saying so.

The unspoken truth is that UVA treatment goes back to the 1940s for pneumonia, tuberculosis, arthritis, asthma and other disease . It went out of favor when antibiotics were introduced ....and yes alternate practitioners still use it today. The old school method was to bomb the blood with ultraviolet . What is being developed is a method to introduce UV to the lungs through intubation .I posted a link a while ago for another partnership that has it in development( Cedars-Sinai and Aytu Bioscience ) .Yes Trump was right about it . In fact there is a competition to develop the technology and get it tested and approved . https://images.wsj.net/im-180715?width=620&size=1.5

Let me know when this old idea actually works and the FDA approves it as safe and effective for anything, but cleaning the atmosphere. Until then...!

that's what I like ;a man of science . The President asked if it was possible . The answer is definitely yes .

You mean in THEORY right? It's yet to be proved. Keep working on it.

and here I thought the left believes theory is fact .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

that's what I like ;a man of science . The President asked if it was possible . The answer is definitely yes .

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Is this the same time when Trump suggested injecting disinfectant to kill the virus?