Paraclete: Yes, your right: We could be closer to that reality than we know with Smallpox, Plague, and other stuff hanging out there, ready to go off as soon as we let our guard down.
|
Paraclete: Yes, your right: We could be closer to that reality than we know with Smallpox, Plague, and other stuff hanging out there, ready to go off as soon as we let our guard down.
While that might be true, this is happening all the time for example; at the moment measles is making a reappearance because of stupidity where people are encouraged to forgo vaccination. Swine fever is a serious problem in the pig population which may bring food shortages, but our guard is down because the profit motive has allowed the opioid crisis to arise. We don't need illness to kill us, Pharma will gladly do it for usQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Paraclete: Very astute statement, can't help but agree. BIG PHARMA is out of control.
Capitalism is out of control. The flow of money is a one way street, and what trickles down is high interest rates, hidden fees, and debts, and higher prices. We learned nothing from past recessions and downturns in the business cycles with such tools as variable interest rates. Big Pharma is hardly the only price manipulators out there, and lobbiest make sure any legistlation makes their clients profits.
Are you forgetting there are two sets of rules differing between rich and poor? Big money cares little for what everybody else goes through while the pursue MO'MONEY by any means necessary.
One of those rules is that the wealthy actually have to pay income tax. The top 20% of income earners pay more than 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay next to nothing. Is that one of the rules you are talking about?Quote:
Are you forgetting there are two sets of rules differing between rich and poor?
The wealthy also pay enormous amounts of property taxes, capital gains taxes, and inheritance taxes. The lower income people pay far, far less of those taxes. So that's another rule you might be referring to.
Poor people have nothing to tax except wages, often meager, while the wealtly have major assets and options along with plenty of loopholes and deductions and perks with accountants to guide them and lobbyests to speak for them. Add to that the tax shelters and havens, they have plenty of perks they take advantage of just with the tax code.
I wouldn't expect a supply sider such as yourself to have it any other way though, but the disconnect between rich guys and government policy and the lower 90% of Americans is forever lost on you, and that's your choice but you don't get to holler about the debt, and defend supply siders tax policy without recognizing that's how the debt is perpetrated in the first place. Poor people ain't contributing to the debt nor benefit from the trillions of dollars that the cost of that debt entails, nor does it stimulate the 70% consumer demand economy of the US.
Really simple dude, you want to pay the debt, then you need tax policy that does that and guess what, poor and middle class people, the bulk of the population, cannot do that. So now what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You keep trotting out this hackneyed statistic to defend privilege with no understanding at all. The wealthy are the ones who benefit most from the economy. How many poor people drive Ferraris. How many poor can enjoy the benefits of proper healthcare. Low income people pay less because they have less, it is called a progressive taxation system because it is designed to tax those who benefit most, but the ones at the top have loop holes to avoid the impact. Until these loopholes are closed the system will still be ufair
Yeah. That's how the top 20% of income earners end up paying 85% of income taxes and vast amounts of inheritance and property taxes. Wow. How clever those rich people are!!Quote:
while the wealtly have major assets and options along with plenty of loopholes and deductions and perks with accountants to guide them and lobbyests to speak for them. Add to that the tax shelters and havens, they have plenty of perks they take advantage of just with the tax code.
I've never claimed to be a supply sider. I believe in personal freedom and free enterprise, and then let the chips fall where they may.Quote:
I wouldn't expect a supply sider such as yourself to have it any other way though, but the disconnect between rich guys and government policy and the lower 90% of Americans is forever lost on you, and that's your choice but you don't get to holler about the debt, and defend supply siders tax policy without recognizing that's how the debt is perpetrated in the first place. Poor people ain't contributing to the debt nor benefit from the trillions of dollars that the cost of that debt entails, nor does it stimulate the 70% consumer demand economy of the US.
Fed debt was 23% of GDP in 1982. By 2011 it had grown to 97%. Only stupid, ignorant people ignore such things. You are neither of those, so you need to get on board. As to how to deal with it, you cannot tax your way out of a trillion dollar deficit without wrecking the economy. Federal budget outlays are now 1,000% greater than just in 1980, which is to say it has grown 10X larger in only 40 years. That is absurd. Spending must be cut substantially.Quote:
Really simple dude, you want to pay the debt, then you need tax policy that does that and guess what, poor and middle class people, the bulk of the population, cannot do that. So now what?
I have said nothing to defend privilege. The rich benefit from being rich? Well congratulations, Mr. Edison. You think you just discovered that? You think that has not been true for all of time? Low income people pay less because they have less? Well congratulations on that amazing discovery as well.Quote:
You keep trotting out this hackneyed statistic to defend privilege with no understanding at all. The wealthy are the ones who benefit most from the economy. How many poor people drive Ferraris. How many poor can enjoy the benefits of proper healthcare. Low income people pay less because they have less, it is called a progressive taxation system because it is designed to tax those who benefit most, but the ones at the top have loop holes to avoid the impact. Until these loopholes are closed the system will still be ufair
It is your statement at the end about closing loopholes to make the system "fair" that is complete nonsense. The top 20% pay over 85% now and the bottom 50% pay next to nothing. How much fairer a system do you want? That's what really gets me about your contention. What do you want to do, go to the bottom 50% and cut their taxes from the current 2.7% to nothing? Yeah boy. That would solve a lot of problems. A "hackneyed" statistic? Only to those who don't care for the truth. If you want to contribute, then you need something more substantial than telling us that poor people don't drive a Ferrari.
Want another "hackneyed" statistic? The top 1% of income earners earn 20% of the income, but pay almost 40% of the income taxes. Yeah, those rich guys have sure got the system rigged to their benefit big time! How unfair!!
One of my missions in life is to help more people see that fallacy of the kind of thinking you used. It's the idea that it's all of those sorry rich folks who are shafting the rest of us. If we could only make the tax system "fair", then our problems would be over. Well, I don't know how else to make a system "fair" than to have the people who make a lot of money pay nearly all of the taxes. How much "fairness" would it take to satisfy you?
What a dill you are relying, on the refuge of a scoundrel; STATISTICS. Do you honestly think those at the bottom should have their meagre resources taxed in the same way as the rich. This is a quick way to bankrupt your economy. The rich understand this in a way you do notQuote:
Want another "hackneyed" statistic? The top 1% of income earners earn 20% of the income, but pay almost 40% of the income taxes. Yeah, those rich guys have sure got the system rigged to their benefit big time! How unfair!!
So let's see. The top 20% pay 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay 2.7%. On what planet are you living where that somehow equates to them being taxed "in the same way as the rich"?Quote:
Do you honestly think those at the bottom should have their meagre resources taxed in the same way as the rich.
You don't like statistics? That's because they don't support your ridiculous ideas. But again, what kind of "fairness" would you propose?
I don't like statistics because they are used to support all sorts of outrageous arguments, just stating a "fact" over and over again does nothing and shows you have not taken broader factors into account. You think my ideas rediculous, well let me ask you have you studied economics? perhaps you went to the same economics school as your illustrious leader, who emerged with no understanding other than a hatred of taxes and a love of tariffs, which he thinks don't tax the rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Where I come from governments start with reducing the tax burden on the low end, this stimulates the economy, because they know reducing the tax burden on the rich does nothing but enrich them. Our economy has flourished since we did away with tariffs and progressively reduced taxation. I live in a place where many of the best ideas have been implemented, tempered with common sense, so I know that if I tell you something it has been tested. Universal health care works, funded by a levy on the population. Consumption taxes work, those who have more to spend pay more, gun control works, resource royalties work, income tax has been progressively reduced, so that those on the bottom pay nothing
Where to begin? THE LOW END PAYS PRACTICALLY NO TAXES!!! HOW CAN THE TAX BURDEN BE REDUCED ANY FURTHER OH WISE ONE???Quote:
Where I come from governments start with reducing the tax burden on the low end, this stimulates the economy, because they know reducing the tax burden on the rich does nothing but enrich them. Our economy has flourished since we did away with tariffs and progressively reduced taxation.
I hoped that shouting in text might help. You think your economy is flourishing, try comparing it to ours and show me how you are ahead of the United States. But that would require you to use some more of those statistics you dislike so much.
Paraclete: I like a lot of ideas you have but not the ones about taxing only the rich and making anyone on the bottom pay no taxes....and, of course, the ideas you have about gun control: We have a Constitutional Right to own firearms, so that idea won't be happening here in the U.S.: You know, COMMUNISM WOULD WORK, TOO, IF YOU TOOK AWAY THE PEOPLE'S CAPACITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.....You might want to ask yourself "How are Australians supposed to fend off a screwball who declares himself dictator for life now that the liberals have taken your firearms away?" You guys will be screwed: You should never let rotten politicians take your guns away and it doesn't matter what stripe they hail from, either.
Now, there are all kinds of different State Level income and property taxes that vary from state to state: We just aren't going to get into the CENTRAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL crap, if we wanted to follow that route, we would have adopted straight-up Marxism and we have, so far, rejected becoming Bolshevik subjects, despite a fair amount of radicals brave enough to show their dirty faces lately.
The whole notion of "CLASS WARFARE", perpetuated by the ideas of "hatred of the rich" is bunch of pure, unadulterated bullsh%$! The United States should cherish its RICH: Our RICH are a national treasure! Our RICH pay the most of our Federal Taxes. Our RICH employ vast numbers of our population: HOW MANY POOR ARSE PEOPLE HAVE YOU SEEN CREATING OR EMPLOYING PEOPLE? I already know the answer to that question. CLASS WARFARE IS A COMMUNIST IDEAL. Keep messing with the RICH and the RICH will just say ADIO and you won't be able to collect any taxes! The RICH take a lot of abuse already.
Another rabid capitalist, they are lining up today. You really have no idea because you have been sold on the idea of your wonderful democracy, which isn't. You think me a bolshevik, why, because I oppose oligarchy of the rich that rules your land. Billionaires in power, tell me how that differs from Russia? You should not be against the poor and the disadvantaged, on such is your nation built.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
The only class warfare is the oppression of the masses, not the hatred of the rich. Your ideas suggest the rich should not be taxed, that the masses should bear the burden. Out of what will they provide the money? No wonder your avatar is vacuum
I have not said only the rich should be taxed, but even in your nation taxation is progressive. What I do say is the low income should not be taxed. What is the point in taxing them then handing out welfare to supplement their income. It is just a political exercise, grandstanding! What was the point of that stupid exercise Obama initiated. Just a tax on the poor
Many words...no content.Quote:
Another rabid capitalist, they are lining up today. You really have no idea because you have been sold on the idea of your wonderful democracy, which isn't. You think me a bolshevik, why, because I oppose oligarchy of the rich that rules your land. Billionaires in power, tell me how that differs from Russia? You should not be against the poor and the disadvantaged, on such is your nation built.
The only class warfare is the oppression of the masses, not the hatred of the rich. Your ideas suggest the rich should not be taxed, that the masses should bear the burden. Out of what will they provide the money? No wonder you avatar is vacuum
Really, and I suppose you contribute content at least I have context
My content is called statistics and facts. You don't like them because you don't have any and mine contradict your positions.
Bottom Line: The "Evil Rich" are an essential for the continuation of this nation AS WE KNOW IT TODAY! They are not dead weight and they aren't to be demonized. With the RICH, progress in all areas is possible and without them the avenues of progress are extremely limited. To rid ourselves of the RICH would be akin to ridding yourself of your own right leg.
Milch cows
Finally, the right-wing philosophy in black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
1. The rich are essential since all progress depends on them.
2. The poor, low-income and middle class need to be periodically culled in an efficient manner. World War and/or an epidemic/pandemic like the plague is best for maximum killing of this segment of society.
It's all in black and white in this thread. In case you're shocked, don't be. It's good to know what the right thinks of the people.
Throw in a bit of religion, and you come up with the unbelieving dead spending eternity in hell undergoing constant torture. That's from the religious right.
You ever decide what you think of the Matthew 25 passage?Quote:
Throw in a bit of religion, and you come up with the unbelieving dead spending eternity in hell undergoing constant torture. That's from the religious right.
Yes, I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Perhaps you will share it with us one of these days. Jesus clearly spoke of an eternal hell.
Back to the federal budget for a moment. We are now spending, adjusted for inflation, about three times more than we spent in 1980. Not adjusted for inflation, it has risen about 900%. That is just crazy. Spending is out of control and thus we have enormous budget deficits.
https://www.mercatus.org/sites/defau...utlays1000.png
http://www.polidiotic.com/by-the-num...ficit-by-year/
It's not enough to say you're spending to much without the why and where of it. In addition a consideration to increase revenues is also needed.
I intend to.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Obama's spending was to avoid a disastrous recession/depression. Trump's spending was to reward his rich friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Quote:
It's not enough to say you're spending to much without the why and where of it. In addition a consideration to increase revenues is also needed.
So if you go disastrously into debt, it's OK as long as you can give the "why and where of it?" Try that with your personal finances and see how far you get. The only way out of this is to insist that our politicians of both parties behave responsibly. The continuous and deranged excuse-making for Obama DOUBLING the national debt gets old. Obama and Trump are both skunks with identical stripes when it comes to spending.
If you increased income tax revenues by 25%, which no one is proposing, you would still have a deficit of hundreds of billions of dollars. It cannot be done without reducing spending. That is going to happen someday. We can just wait until doomsday like Greece did or we can grow up and become responsible adults. I think we owe it to our children to do the right thing.
The Republicans left Obama with a crashing economy which was headed toward another Great Depression. Obama saved the nation and the world with his spending.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Obama left Trump with a burgeoning rapidly recovering economy which Trump, through no talent of his own, continues to claim its successes as his own.
These are facts, not opinions.
Calling Obama's efforts "deranged excuses" is itself deranged.
So it required eight years of continuous, unbroken deficit spending to the tune of 9 trillion dollars to "save the world"??? That's laughable.Quote:
The Republicans left Obama with a crashing economy which was headed toward another Great Depression. Obama saved the nation and the world with his spending.
It's just the typical liberal spin. "It's fine when I do it, but it's bad when you do it." Just more of the same.
No, it's not laughable, but it is complicated. Non-economists are prone to "headline reporting". They rarely have the skills or patience to make the effort to truly understand what's happening financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I've provided here (below link) a non-partisan explanation of Obama's actions during the financial crisis he inherited. His responsibility, depending on how you look at it, is as low as just under one trillion dollars overall for his term. Or as high as the nine trillion you claimed. The reality is probably somewhere in between.
In any case, the solution carried out by Obama was far, far better than doing what the conservative right-wing was suggesting. That was to let the world economy play out and self-correct. Such a method would undoubtedly have had little impact on the national debt, but the price would have been enormous in human terms.
https://www.thebalance.com/national-...-obama-3306293
Budget deficit = spending minus revenues. Not complicated. It is simply how much money had to be borrowed. Any other way of describing it is just political speech designed to cover up poor performance. But even at that, while a person might be able to justify some of the deficit spending the first year or two of Obama's presidency, to try and suggest he had to engage in hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit spending every year for eight years is just fantasy. Obama engaged in about as much deficit spending as every other president before him combined.
Because of prior Republican mismanagement.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Lib rule #1. It's OK if we do it, but wrong if you do it.Quote:
Because of prior Republican mismanagement.
Lib rule #2. It's always someone else's fault.
Those repubs must have been pretty powerful (and Obama mighty weak) to make Obama run multi-hundred billion dollar deficits even seven or eight years into his administration.
Naw it was the usual repub mismanagement and right wing loony noise.
Refer to liberal rule #2.Quote:
Naw it was the usual repub mismanagement and right wing loony noise.
Refer to post #228, or any history book.
Post 228 was the fairytale Athos told. You'll have to do a lot better than that.
When you tell people to look at "any history book", it tells me you have no idea what history book to look in. In the meantime, democrat and republican politicians alike continue to increase the national debt to disastrous levels and no one cares. Everyone is too interested in participating in partisan politics and circus sideshows like the Trump impeachment charade. The pols are happy because they can brag about lowering taxes and increasing spending ("taking care" of people). They don't think about ten years from now, but they think a lot about reelection. And we have become so stupid and thoughtless that we allow them to get away with it and even worship some of them.
Athos has FACTS, you have words. The dufus wanted a favor from Ukraine which was illegal, yet you right wing loonies say investigating that is a charade. Investigate Biden with no evidence of wrong doing isn't? You worship a lying cheating dufus but bash dems for worshipping Obama?
Yeah read any history book you want, but you take your deficit funded tax cuts, and holler about the deficit? Bet you'd be thrilled with another tax cut wouldn't you? Your concern for the debt and deficit doesn't match your words, fella! Makes for a heckuva fairytale though and explains your support for the biggest fairy teller of all time, though LIAR, and cheater would be a lot more accurate and precise a description.
Liars and cheaters should be investigated I'm sure you agree. NO?
Oh? Let's hear those facts. Making a statement and then just claiming it's a fact doesn't count.Quote:
Athos has FACTS,
Calm down. You have no evidence that Trump did anything illegal. If it existed, the dems would be falling all over themselves to hold an impeachment vote. As to HB, we'll see about that. One thing we know for certain. Burisma did not hire him because of his expertise in oil, gas, and business. Wonder why they did hire him??? He said it was because of his last name. What do you think?Quote:
The dufus wanted a favor from Ukraine which was illegal, yet you right wing loonies say investigating that is a charade. Investigate Biden with no evidence of wrong doing isn't? You worship a lying cheating dufus but bash dems for worshipping Obama?
Like I said, you have no clue what any history book says about that episode. If you did, you would already have referred to it.Quote:
Yeah read any history book you want
I've already shown you that the deficit is not simply the result of tax cuts. It is the result of fantastic, irresponsible, and disastrous increases in fed spending. The feds spend almost ten times more now than just 40 years ago. There is no excuse for it, and there is no reasonable level of taxation that would close the deficit. It is just that simple. Not even your beloved dems have suggested anything. The deficit is now so great that neither party will suggest a solution because they know it will have to be significant and unpopular. Our country has become so filled with stupid, non-thinking people that I don't see much hope for it. We are exactly like a married couple who bury themselves in debt to the point that there is no way out.Quote:
but you take your deficit funded tax cuts, and holler about the deficit? Bet you'd be thrilled with another tax cut wouldn't you? Your concern for the debt and deficit doesn't match your words, fella! Makes for a heckuva fairytale though and explains your support for the biggest fairy teller of all time, though LIAR, and cheater would be a lot more accurate and precise a description.
You better be ready to investigate about half the Congress including Schiff and Pelosi. You better be ready to investigate Obama because he lied without question about Benghazi. I wonder if we are truly prepared to set aside our partisan political ideas to engage in such investigations.Quote:
Liars and cheaters should be investigated I'm sure you agree. NO?
You can easily fact check Athos and find that he is correct about his FACTS. Explaining it to a closed minded person who is in denial is the issue, not the FACTS!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's what the INQUIRY process is about, gathering FACTS! There is also a process for investigating Americans in foreign lands and the dufus hasn't followed that either.Quote:
Calm down. You have no evidence that Trump did anything illegal. If it existed, the dems would be falling all over themselves to hold an impeachment vote. As to HB, we'll see about that. One thing we know for certain. Burisma did not hire him because of his expertise in oil, gas, and business. Wonder why they did hire him??? He said it was because of his last name. What do you think?
Just pick one and see what it says about the economic situation on 2007. How simple is that since even though we have linked it and talked it to death, and you still say it didn't happen. Nothing else I can do for you there bud!Quote:
Like I said, you have no clue what any history book says about that episode. If you did, you would already have referred to it.
Quote:
I've already shown you that the deficit is not simply the result of tax cuts. It is the result of fantastic, irresponsible, and disastrous increases in fed spending. The feds spend almost ten times more now than just 40 years ago. There is no excuse for it, and there is no reasonable level of taxation that would close the deficit. It is just that simple. Not even your beloved dems have suggested anything. The deficit is now so great that neither party will suggest a solution because they know it will have to be significant and unpopular. Our country has become so filled with stupid, non-thinking people that I don't see much hope for it. We are exactly like a married couple who bury themselves in debt to the point that there is no way out.
The tax cuts are but an example of spending that contributes to the deficit true, but it would help if you would be more specific about that irresponsible spending over decades that has ballooned the deficit. Then we can discuss those specifics.
Repubs did investigate HC and Obama and found NOTHING on Benghazi, so no not interested in doing it yet again. Same goes for all your investigations that end up no where. You want to investigate everybody in congress and there mama's, go ahead. Let me know how that works because I think you need evidence and not just right wing loony conspiracy theories that get debunked with REAL investigations.Quote:
You better be ready to investigate about half the Congress including Schiff and Pelosi. You better be ready to investigate Obama because he lied without question about Benghazi. But I'd be willing to bet you are not interested in doing any of that. Your partisan political outlook won't allow for it.
You got nothing but noise, or are just plain incompetent! Bet you know that though!
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:15 AM. |