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6 repub congressional hearing into Bengahzi and you got nothing? Come on JL, Kavanaugh had one lousy half a$$ investigation that the dufus squelched, and YOU call that equal?

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I wasn't referring to Benghazi. The only thing HC was guilty of there was absolute gross incompetence. I was talking about the toy email server she used to transmit confidential information which Comey, that great monument of impartial justice, said was a violation of the law but then chose not to prosecute. That, of course, after AG Lynch met secretly with HC's former pres husband for nearly an hour to talk about who knows what. You're fine with that whole stinking mess because, after all, she's a liberal dem.

Kavanaugh, on the other hand, was accused of assisting a friend in the sexual assault of Dr. Ford, a charge which any neutral, thinking person would have to conclude was completely void of evidence. Her story was as full of holes as swiss cheese. Even her own witnesses could not verify the story. It was a complete travesty of so-called justice. Any prosecutor attempting to bring that case to court would have been laughed to scorn.

So yeah, I guess you're right in saying it was a false equivalency. Clinton was guilty and there was no doubt about it, while Kavanaugh could be found guilty of nothing more than excessive partying as a teen. Unfortunately, as we have found out, he was drinking alcohol rather than merely smoking pot.

The only thing Kavanaugh is guilty of is being a conversative. That, in truth, is what you really don't like about him. If he was a liberal dem, he would have sailed through the hearings with no problems, and you know very well that's true.

You can defend the dufus and the other silver spoon in mouth privileged drunk frat boy all you want, and delude yourself into thinking the snake oil you bought is nectar of the gods, doesn't change the stink of almost everything about this administration's words, actions, or behavior at all.

Sorry guy, wallow in your own crap all by yourself. Oh darn there I go stooping to crass name calling again! Pass me what you're smoking so I can be loony too. What? You ain't smoking good dope? You just are naturally loony? Well heck why didn't you say so!

jlisenbe - Re your comment to tal - "You are in fantasy land again". Speaking about fantasy land......

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Originally Posted by Athos

Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please.

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You can run, but you can't hide. We await your answer.

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You can defend the dufus and the other silver spoon in mouth privileged drunk frat boy all you want, and delude yourself into thinking the snake oil you bought is nectar of the gods, doesn't change the stink of almost everything about this administration's words, actions, or behavior at all.

Sorry guy, wallow in your own crap all by yourself. Oh darn there I go stooping to crass name calling again! Pass me what you're smoking so I can be loony too. What? You ain't smoking good dope? You just are naturally loony? Well heck why didn't you say so!

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No facts. No evidence. Just crude name calling. Sad. Defending Trump? He hasn't even been in the conversation.

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"Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please."

You can run, but you can't hide. We await your answer.

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The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

Better yet, read the Bible for yourself. Find your answers there.

You ignore facts and evidence so what's left besides name calling?

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You ignore facts and evidence so what's left besides name calling?

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Try making your case.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

Better yet, read the Bible for yourself. Find your answers there.

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In that case, jisnbe I will recall it for you. I'm not surprised you avoid answering.

YES, you believe that babies and people who never heard of Jesus will spend eternity in a hell being tortured and punished for all time. You defend this by quoting the Bible which does not say that. No need to go over that. I've explained it to you more than once to no avail. That makes me think you are pleased with the idea.

Why do I bring it up again? Because such a bizarre belief reveals your thought process and how you process information. Like many others, you sublimate reason to your biases. This is typical of the core Trump group which includes Christian Evangelicals many of whom hold the same belief about hell. The correlation is instructive as both conclusions rely on non-rational approaches to issues.

Believing innocent children will roast forever in a fiery hell helps us to weigh your belief in your various expressed political/social positions against your truly sick belief in the torture of babies.

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In that case, jisnbe I will recall it for you. I'm not surprised you avoid answering.

YES, you believe that babies and people who never heard of Jesus will spend eternity in a hell being tortured and punished for all time. You defend this by quoting the Bible which does not say that. No need to go over that. I've explained it to you more than once to no avail. That makes me think you are pleased with the idea.

Why do I bring it up again? Because such a bizarre belief reveals your thought process and how you process information. Like many others, you sublimate reason to your biases. This is typical of the core Trump group which includes Christian Evangelicals many of whom hold the same belief about hell. The correlation is instructive as both conclusions rely on non-rational approaches to issues.

Believing innocent children will roast forever in a fiery hell helps us to weigh your belief in your various expressed political/social positions against your truly sick belief in the torture of babies.

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That does not represent my beliefs. Never said it. So again, "The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

Better yet, read the Bible for yourself. Find your answers there."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That does not represent my beliefs.

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Excellent! That's great news. I'm glad you've changed.

I know what you said. You know what you said. Others may go back and discover for themselves. I have no need to.

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I know what you said. You know what you said. Others may go back and discover for themselves. I have no need to.

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"The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

Better yet, read the Bible for yourself. Find your answers there."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That does not represent my beliefs

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Hmm, now I'm wondering. Did you have your fingers crossed when you said that? I think you had your fingers crossed. Just when I thought it was finished with your admission.

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"The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

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Now you repeated this. Are you retracting your admission?

How about this? Do you formally renounce the following statement?

To wit:
"UNBELIEVERS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS GOT TO HELL FOR ETERNAL PUNISHMENT".

"Unbelievers", of course, would include children too young to understand and all people who ever lived that never heard of or believed in Jesus.

I was hoping you would finally see the absurdity of such a belief. Now I'm not sure you got it.

And again.

"The question has been answered on several occasions. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with you on that. Go back...read carefully...comprehend. As I've told you before, if you will try that, you will profit from it. Perhaps it will be a new experience for you?

Better yet, read the Bible for yourself. Find your answers there."

Athos: You keep coming at jlisenbe about an interpretation of Biblical scriptures.....What about Democrat Muslims and their beliefs in Koran scriptures: Why don't the beliefs of Democrat Congressmen/women bother you so much....you are alluding the Bible as being something akin to a fairytale, right? That you can't believe a literal translation of it without being some whack job, isn't that what you are saying? Where is your disdain for those on the Democrat side that believe in Koranic scriptures? Or, believing literal translations of those are O.K. or are you afraid to condemn them? Why is criticism of Islamic beliefs "FORBADDEN" but condemnation of those who believe in the Bible just fine with you?

And why do you want to condemn Trump because Evangelicals support him when, at the same time, filthy socialist and vermin communist support Democrat candidates and some Democrat Congressmen are straight-up socialist? What gives?

WHY THE DICHOTOMY WITH YOU AND THE LEFT: Do you know how many AMERICANS have been killed by communist and those who claim to believe in Islam (which they can't be true Muslims or they wouldn't be killing in the first place)? But yet, its O.K. for the left to have these radical groups on their side, endorsing them, and the left says that is just fine....and the Democrats will take their donations, too: no problem! But Trumps a SOB because some Evangelicals decide to support him! You can't explain this away....its way bigger than you and you just ESPOUSE THE PARTY LINE.

Yup! you got the repub party line down pretty pat yourself.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Athos: You keep coming at jlisenbe about an interpretation of Biblical scriptures

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No, it's only one scripture. His stated belief that unbelievers spend eternity being punished in hell. I have pointed out to him the absurdity of such a belief but he clings to it like a dog to his bone. Be careful how you read posts here.

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What about Democrat Muslims and their beliefs in Koran scriptures:

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What about them? Or any Muslim, for that matter? You're coming across here as a mindless bigot.

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Why don't the beliefs of Democrat Congressmen/women bother you so much

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Apparently, they bother you. More mindless bigotry. Sad.

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you are alluding the Bible as being something akin to a fairytale, right?

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No, wrong! You should stop assuming things you have no knowledge about. That's a trait of mindlessness.

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That you can't believe a literal translation of it without being some whack job, isn't that what you are saying?

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No, that's not what I'm saying. You're batting zero. Are you ever going to say something intelligent?

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Where is your disdain for those on the Democrat side that believe in Koranic scriptures?

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Good grief, you're running amok. I suspect you're projecting your own disdain for "Democrats that believe in Koranic scriptures". As for me, I have none.

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Or, believing literal translations of those are O.K. or are you afraid to condemn them? Why is criticism of Islamic beliefs "FORBADDEN" but condemnation of those who believe in the Bible just fine with you?

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You don't have the slightest inkling what I believe or don't believe about the Koran, yet you continue to charge me with things you have no knowledge of. You have just graduated to religious BIGOT with a capital B.

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And why do you want to condemn Trump because Evangelicals support him

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You have it backwards. I criticize Evangelicals because they support Trump. Got it?

Evangelicals promote themselves as strict moralists yet they support this man Trump who is demonstrably a person of unbridled lusts and lies, and financial cheating as a businesssman.

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at the same time, filthy socialist and vermin communist support Democrat candidates and some Democrat Congressmen are straight-up socialist? What gives?

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What gives is your fevered mind. Do you deny Neo-Nazis support the right-wing? Racists and anti-Semites, also? What is socialism practiced by "some Democrat Congressmen"?

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WHY THE DICHOTOMY WITH YOU AND THE LEFT:

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Dichotomy? I don't think you know what the word means. Better look it up.

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Do you know how many AMERICANS have been killed by communist and those who claim to believe in Islam (which they can't be true Muslims or they wouldn't be killing in the first place)?

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Not exactly, but I know that far more in orders of magnitude have been killed by Bible-believing Christians. Not even close.

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But yet, its O.K. for the left to have these radical groups on their side, endorsing them, and the left says that is just fine....and the Democrats will take their donations, too: no problem! But Trumps a SOB because some Evangelicals decide to support him! You can't explain this away.

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Of course I can "explain it away" This is just a mindless rant not deserving of a long explanation. How about this: Sustitute "right" for "left", "Republicans" for "Democrats", "idiot" for "SOB", and you have a better rant.

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It's way bigger than you and you just ESPOUSE THE PARTY LINE

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As an independent, I have no party line to "espouse". I can't say the same for you.

Byw, are you a member of the John Birch Society? Just curious.

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His stated belief that unbelievers spend eternity being punished in hell. I have pointed out to him the absurdity of such a belief but he clings to it like a dog to his bone.

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John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

Rev. 20:11ff Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I would guess you do not dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. For those who do not have faith, what do you think happens to them?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would guess you do not dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. For those who do not have faith, what do you think happens to them?

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We're waiting for you to tell us what happens to all those who've never heard about Jesus -- all those miscarried and aborted babies, all the people who lived before Jesus showed up, all those who've never had Christian missionaries tromping across their lands.

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I would guess you do not dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. For those who do not have faith, what do you think happens to them?

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Whatever you call your power greater than yourself, or have none, it's all good because our bodies turn to dust and our souls belong to the universe. That's enough for me. It's hard enough being a good human to worry about the things I cannot control. Pray for me anyway though in case you're right.

Athos: I am an Independent, too, thank you....and, I am not a member of the John Birch Society.….Do you know who was John Birch? He was a U.S. Intelligence Officer who was murdered by ChiComs not long after WWII ended but before the Cold War began....The John Birch Society celebrates John Birch and is decidedly anticommunist....So you have a problem with those who are anticommunist?

You obviously have a problem with the word of God, when that word comes from Christians.

You are sidestepping huge issues within the workings of the left......Republicans have no Muslim Congressmen or Senators but Democrats have three that I know of. Republicans have no communist/socialists in their ranks but Democrats have at least two that I know about. Oh, to your charge: Republicans have no Nazis or right wing extremist in their party but there are many radicals in the Democrat Party. Let's see: Communists killed 38,000 Americans in the Korean Conflict and 58,000 Americans in the Vietnam Conflict....that is 96,000 Americans killed by Bolsheviks but yet you say we should not worry about that and concentrate on the number of Americans killed by Christians because Christians killed more Americans than did communists? What in the name of God are you talking about? Do you even know? Oh, and by the way: ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE....there is no such thing as a Christian that doesn't believe in the Bible! Obviously, you missed this one....you don't know much about the Bible, do you?

And, then, there are the Muslims: You labeled me....I didn't label you and I WILL NOT EVER LABEL YOU.....I just don't do that. Why are those on the left so quick to label? You label me as a Religious Bigot because I point out the discrepancies that exist between the Right and the left in terms of who is embracing Muslims more than they are embracing Christians...that makes me a Religious Bigot, according to you: I am not....what I am doing is demonstrating that Democrats have, in their ranks, members of a religion that has DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD....and that is not an exaggeration, at all. Do you remember 911? It wasn't committed by Christians, was it? Terrorism is owned by this religion, try and dispute that and you will look mortally silly......that religion owns 98-99% of world terrorism....dispute it, if you can but I know its undisputable. And the left loves to molly coddle this bunch. I don't have issues with those that are law abiding CITIZENS who assimilate to the American way of life.....but I have problems with radicals of this religion that have gobbed onto the Democrat Party and espouse the destruction of the American way of life and whom the left endorses, consistently, at all opportunities. The U.S. Constitution guarantees us certain unalienable rights and that includes Freedom of Religion. You are free to practice whatever religion you so choose. However, you are not permitted to mix religion and government: We are secular n terms of government and the same rules apply to all religions, not just Christians. The left wishes to exclude Christians while embracing other religions and they want to bend to rules to permit this...typical.

And it is a DICHOTOMY between you and the left on these issues: You and the left talk about freedoms but yet are perfectly willing to deny those same freedoms to those who do not believe as the left does.

You tried desperately to make jlisenbe look like a fool, saying no scriptures existed that says you will burn in hell for eternity if you die not believing in God...you are clearly wrong!

I am not Protestant, I am Catholic....but I support a Protestant Evangelicals right to support whomever he sees fit....Remember, this is the U.S. and we have a Constitutional Right called Freedom of Religion....It is not called "Freedom From Religion"....and, you know what, the small differences between Catholicism and Protestants really don't matter in the big picture because a very big common thread exists: When it comes to the scriptures, God said it and that is that!....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not but be aware that the payment for not believing is eternal damnation.

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We're waiting for you to tell us what happens to all those who've never heard about Jesus -- all those miscarried and aborted babies, all the people who lived before Jesus showed up, all those who've never had Christian missionaries tromping across their lands.

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For babies and children, no, you are not waiting. I've already answered that.

As to those who are adults and are guilty before God (which is everyone), then based on the scriptures I presented, perhaps you should ask God.

"guilty before God" but don't know that, have never been told that....

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"guilty before God" but don't know that, have never been told that....

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"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." What did you think that meant?

"But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

"Transgressions". "Iniquities". What are those?

I would suggest you read the first three chapters of Romans.

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"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." What did you think that meant?

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It doesn't mean damnation.

I suggest you read Hebrews 11.

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It doesn't mean damnation.

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No, but Rev. 20 did.

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I suggest you read Hebrews 11.

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Hebrews 11 is the "hall of faith" chapter. It speaks of those who found favor with God by their faith. And Jesus said, in the John passages above, that it is faith in Him that delivers from sin. So what is your point?

Just about everything you write is wrong! I will address it point by point. Read carefully.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Athos: I am not a member of the John Birch Society.So you have a problem with those who are anticommunist?

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I do not have a problem with anti-communists. I never said I did. You are making stuff up again. We're off to a bad start.

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You obviously have a problem with the word of God, when that word comes from Christians.

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You OBVIOUSLY cannot read! Never did I say I had a problem with the word of God - whether from Christian or from Muslim. Please, please, please - READ!!!!!!

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Republicans have no Muslim Congressmen or Senators but Democrats have three that I know of. Republicans have no communist/socialists in their ranks but Democrats have at least two that I know about.

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Name the communist who is a Dem Senator. What is wrong with Muslims in Congress? Are you familiar with US Law and how it applies to Congressional membership? I asked you what you think socialism is, but you didn't answer. Unfortunately, people like you only use the word "socialism" as a trigger word for your friends. You wouldn't know socialism if it bit you in the arse. Your objection to Muslim Congresspeople tells me you are not a convinced American. Go back to your history books.

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Oh, to your charge: Republicans have no Nazis or right wing extremist in their party

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Your comment was about SUPPORT to the parties!!!!! Domestic terrorism is almost exclusively white male supremacists. Can you read a paper, watch a news program? These neo-Nazis, and Klansmen, and anti-semites and fascists support the RIGHT wing!! Do you deny it?

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Communists killed 38,000 Americans in the Korean Conflict and 58,000 Americans in the Vietnam Conflict....that is 96,000 Americans killed by Bolsheviks but yet you say we should not worry about that and concentrate on the number of Americans killed by Christians because Christians killed more Americans than did communists? What in the name of God are you talking about?

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Yes, I know, but you don't. Add up the American Revolution (British Christians), War of 1812 (same), Mexico, Civil War, Spanish-American War WW1, WW2 to start. The American dead killed by Christians dwarf those killed in your example. Do you deny it?

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Do you even know? Oh, and by the way: ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE....there is no such thing as a Christian that doesn't believe in the Bible! Obviously, you missed this one....you don't know much about the Bible, do you?

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V7 - I'm sorry but you're really coming across as a moron. Sorry for the label, but you invite it. You say things on impulse without a scintilla of knowing what you are talking about. I'm reaching a limit with you unless there's some marked improvement.

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And, then, there are the Muslims: You labeled me....I didn't label you and I WILL NOT EVER LABEL YOU.....I just don't do that. ,<You just did it above> Why are those on the left so quick to label? You label me as a Religious Bigot because I point out the discrepancies that exist between the Right and the left in terms of who is embracing Muslims more than they are embracing Christians...that makes me a Religious Bigot,

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Yes, you are a religious bigot because you believe it necessary to point out who is Muslim and who is Christian - the Muslims out to destroy America. That's religious bigotry - as bigoted as it gets.

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what I am doing is demonstrating that Democrats have, in their ranks, members of a religion that has DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD...

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I can almost see the spittle coming out of your mouth. You're hopeless.

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and that is not an exaggeration, at all. Do you remember 911? It wasn't committed by Christians, was it? Terrorism is owned by this religion, try and dispute that and you will look mortally silly......that religion owns 98-99% of world terrorism....dispute it, if you can but I know its undisputable.

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It's INdisputable, not UN. When I post on these pages, I assume my "opponent" uses a modicum of logic. You don't even have that. If we blame Muslims for all members of their religion, do we blame Catholic or Protestant or Jewish offenders (pick your offense) for their religions?

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.but I have problems with radicals of this religion

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Ah, progress. Not ALL Muslims, just the radicals. Good

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we are secular n terms of government and the same rules apply to all religions, not just Christians. The left wishes to exclude Christians while embracing other religions

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V7 - That's an out and out lie. I can put up with your ignorance, but you cross the line when you try to lie your way through a discussion. SHAME!

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And it is a DICHOTOMY between you and the left on these issues

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You still don't know what DICHOTOMY means. You had a chance to look it up, but you couldn't even do that.

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: You and the left talk about freedoms but yet are perfectly willing to deny those same freedoms to those who do not believe as the left does.

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More unsubstantiated charges.

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You tried desperately to make jlisenbe look like a fool, saying no scriptures existed that says you will burn in hell for eternity if you die not believing in God...you are clearly wrong!

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He made himself look like a fool (your words) - I don't necessarily think that. He believes erroneously, that's all. Now that you are on his punishment/hell team, check his post today. Not one quote proves his point. But that's another thread.

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...When it comes to the scriptures, God said it and that is that!....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not but be aware that the payment for not believing is eternal damnation.

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Why, oh why, do you fundies ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS close out with a threat?

There is a difference between a threat and a warning. Anger threatens. Love warns.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

There is a difference between a threat and a warning. Anger threatens. Love warns.

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Where's the love? I see only anger and threats.

Athos: You are an excellent counterpuncher, my hat is off to you! I can only hope to be as polished as you are at this, one day!

Make no doubt about it: The Democrat Party has sketchy relationships with a lot of sketchy people and groups....The Republicans, not so much. In their past, and the past predicts the future, most of the time, the Democrats have accepted campaign money from the Chicoms, point in fact, going into Bill Clinton funds....this is shear treachery.

The scriptures that jlisenbe stated come from the Bible, there can be no doubt about that.....they may not be the words you wish to hear, they may not fit the narrative you hope to fill, but they are from the Bible and they are clear in their meanings. These are hard, heavy words stated in the Bible but there can only be one true interpretation. So if you disagree with the words from those scriptures, you are disagreeing with the word of God, by definition.

Klansmen in the Republican Party? I am from the South and have some news for you: The Democrat Party IS THE PARTY OF THE KLAN! The real hard assed racists I know are Democrats...I know this at a level you never will. What you see running around, pretending to be Klansmen: they aren't Klansmen, they are weirdos...Klan wouldn't have them.....the Klan is a secret society, they don't "expose" themselves....and they are dreadfully evil people.

I am not trying to trigger anyone: Bernie Sanders is a communist....an old Bolshevik, to be more exact.....he has flirted with "romantic communism" his whole life....he is one of those who thinks Che Guevera was a superhero......hell, he took one of his honeymoons to Soviet Russia while we were in a "Cold War" state with Russia...do you think that was because he anticommunist? No, he is in league with communism: Scratch a socialist hard enough and you find a communist underneath...Remember the acronym U.S.S.R.? Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics......socialist = communist.

And why do you identify NAZIs as Republicans, they cannot be Republicans: Nazi stands for National Socialist...ke word here is SOCIALIST.....so you think SOCIALISM IS OF THE RIGHT? I thought you said I wouldn't know Socialism if it bit me in the : You might need to look in the mirror on this one!

Radical Muslims do not have American values, we know that......but the jury is still out about the capacity of Muslims to assimilate. Like I said, those that are U.S. Citizens and have adopted to American way of life are fine. But those radical Muslims in the Democrat Party are in no way representative of the American way of life.....in fact, they poorly represent their own religion: Remember Keith Ellison beat the hell out of woman (a no, no!).

In the end, though, we are talking about historical fact, not conjecture: The danger exists in any situation where we have to "watch" people because we can't be 100% sure where their allegiances reside.....this is a big, big problem. There can be no denying: 911 was committed by those proclaiming to be Muslims, radical as they were.....and these acts certainly were not committed by Christians. The Democrats, not the Republicans, have an association with Muslims.....only they can reconcile that relationship and have a clean conscious. I don't have a problem because I am neither Democrat nor Republican.

O.K., so you are going to count the Revolutionary War, The War of 1812, The Civil War, The Spanish American War, WWi, WW2, all of that as Christians killing more Americans? I guess you could be right.....but who were the Christians in WWII that were killing Americans? Are you saying the Nazis were Christians? All of this doesn't get the Democrats off the hook: They are "closer" to communists than are the Republicans: Its the "Number Line Of Politics" where the extremities define the sides, and the Democrats are decidedly to the "left" of the origin......and the Republicans are on the right of the origin!

You are wanting to say that every crazy joker that shoots up a place is a domestic terrorist because that gives you some sort of "balance" to leverage against Islamic terrorists? NO! That scale is still weighing heavily in favor of the Islamic terrorists. And, then, you are wanting to say these "domestic terrorists" are all Right Wing? NO! What about the Ohio shooting? What about the Dallas Police Ambush (Black left wing perpetrator)? There are loads more that were just crazy bastards having no affiliation politically.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

Rev. 20:11ff Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I would guess you do not dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. For those who do not have faith, what do you think happens to them?

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None of your citations meet all the requirements - punishment, hell, eternity, unbelief. Some have some, none all.

As for Revelation, the language is so obviously poetic/dramatic/mythical/fantastic, who could possibly take it as literal? Even then, readers saw it as symbolic referring to Rome. However, your right to believe what you want is your right.

Of course, I dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. How could people who never heard of Christ have faith in him? How about people who lived 5,000 years before Christ?

I have no idea what happens to them. Neither do you. I hope we all lead decent lives. Life after death will always be a mystery in the here and now. We may hope as we will.

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None of your citations meet all the requirements - punishment, hell, eternity, unbelief. Some have some, none all.

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The "requirements" are yours and yours alone. They are silly and designed to appear clever, but serve no useful purpose.

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As for Revelation, the language is so obviously poetic/dramatic/mythical/fantastic, who could possibly take it as literal? Even then, readers saw it as symbolic referring to Rome. However, your right to believe what you want is your right.

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You won't take it literally because you don't like the message. As to readers of that time, how do you know how they saw it?

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Of course, I dispute the necessity of faith in Christ. How could people who never heard of Christ have faith in him? How about people who lived 5,000 years before Christ?

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Then you disbelieve the Bible. Now that's your prerogative for sure, but then one wonders what you base your beliefs on.

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Where's the love? I see only anger and threats.

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When one sees a day of judgement coming, then love would prompt that person to warn others.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The "requirements" are yours and yours alone. They are silly and designed to appear clever, but serve no useful purpose.

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No, the requirements are yours. I got them from you. What's silly about them? Do you now deny they are what you believe? "Designed to appear clever" ?? "Serve no useful purpose"?? They're hardly clever or useful. I have no idea why you should think so.

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You won't take it literally because you don't like the message.

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Frankly, Revelation is like a comic book - something out of someone's imagination. But that's not the issue here. Believe it if you must.

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As to readers of that time, how do you know how they saw it?

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Because they included it in the Bible.

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Then you disbelieve the Bible.

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Not believing in Revelation does not mean I disbelieve in the Bible. I understand why you say that. That will make you feel that you are correct.

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Now that's your prerogative for sure

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Thanks.

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but then one wonders what you base your beliefs on.

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As far as the Bible, I base my belief on the brain God gave me to discern literal truth from allegorical truth. It's not new - been done for two thousand years. You should try it.

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When one sees a day of judgement coming, then love would prompt that person to warn others.

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When is your day of judgement coming? Seems somebody here had a similar prediction and he swore up and down he was right. He was wrong. The predicted day came and he left, never to be seen here again. What date do you have in mind? It will be a good test of your belief.


Finally, do you now hold that unbelievers do NOT go to hell for eternal punishment?

I am referring to the requirements you listed months ago. I haven't listed any requirements.

I was asking how you could know that, "Even then, readers saw it as symbolic referring to Rome." How do you know how people in John's time saw the book of Revelation?

As to the day of judgement, Jesus said this. "“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." As to someone predicting a date, I haven't seen that on this board, but certainly it has been done all too frequently, and millions of books have been sold on that basis.


Yes, we must use our minds to make sense of what we read, and some Bible passages are clearly figurative, but you must have good reason to look at it that way. The general rule of thumb is to take a passage literally unless there is a compelling reason not to, and thinking that the passage does damage to some cherished belief or makes one uncomfortable is not sufficient.. I don't know of any compelling reason not to take the 20th chapter literally. Also, I don't know of anyone other than you who considers the book of Revelation to be some sort of cryptic reference to Rome. There are some references to Babylon that could mean Rome, but to suggest the entire book is a reference to Rome is questionable. That wouldn't really make any sense. The great white throne of judgement description is pretty hard to simply pass off as figurative language. It would be figurative of what???

I believe as I have for years. I believe that only those with faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus are in right standing with God and will not face judgement on that day. It is a very plain teaching of scripture. Those who do not have faith will be judged as they are still in their sins. They will spend eternity in hell. Now is it possible for a person to be trusting in the mercy of God and have a faith in Jesus though they have not heard of Him? I think it's possible. I look to the story of the pharisee and tax collector in prayer to be able to say that. The tax collector, Jesus said, prayed, "Lord, have mercy on me, the sinner." Jesus said the man went away justified, so it might be that those who sincerely seek God's mercy will be accepted even if they have not heard of Jesus. That's not, however, a widely accepted point of view. But the Bible is very clear that one cannot be saved by following other gods.

It is also possible to take the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 to show how God responds to those who are genuinely seeking the God of the Bible but do not know about Jesus.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"Even then, readers saw it as symbolic referring to Rome." How do you know how people in John's time saw the book of Revelation?

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Contemporary evidence. One example - coinage from 71AD. Many others. Look it up.

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As to someone predicting a date, I haven't seen that on this board,

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This board has been around long before you arrived.

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I don't know of anyone other than you who considers the book of Revelation to be some sort of cryptic reference to Rome.

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Babylon as Rome was the original common understanding. You could look it up.

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The great white throne of judgement description is pretty hard to simply pass off as figurative language.

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You gotta be kidding! A great white throne NOT figurative? It couldn't be anything else. Unless you think God sits up there on it.

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Those who do not have faith will be judged as they are still in their sins. They will spend eternity in hell.

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There you are! In black and white. Unbelievers (those who do not have faith) will spend eternity in hell. ALL THE REQUIREMENTS YOU DENIED HAVING!!!! I hope all those interested read this comment in your own words. Especially after you denied it so many times!

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Now is it possible for a person to be trusting in the mercy of God and have a faith in Jesus though they have not heard of Him? I think it's possible.

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Exactly how someone has faith in Jesus without having heard of him is a bit of a mystery. But I detect an attempt to walk back your original belief. Keep trying.

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I look to the story of the pharisee and tax collector in prayer to be able to say that. The tax collector, Jesus said, prayed, "Lord, have mercy on me, the sinner." Jesus said the man went away justified, so it might be that those who sincerely seek God's mercy will be accepted even if they have not heard of Jesus.

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Excellent example. I was holding that one for you, but you needed to be much more advanced in your belief before I brought it up. You surprised me, but I am glad for it. Now, can you go a step further? The Pharisee was a Jew. What about a Samaritan? A good one. Can you extend the idea to a Buddhist, a Hindu, and the ultimate test, an atheist?

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But the Bible is very clear that one cannot be saved by following other gods.

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We'll leave that for now.

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It is also possible to take the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 to show how God responds to those who are genuinely seeking the God of the Bible but do not know about Jesus.

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How God responds to people is not at issue here.

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Contemporary evidence. One example - coinage from 71AD. Many others. Look it up.

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In other words, you have no idea. You really want us to believe that coinage from 71 A.D. shows us how people viewed the book of Revelation in 90 A.D.? Really?

I'm not going on one of your wild goose chases. If you have evidence, then fine. Post it here. Otherwise, admit that you have no idea how the Christian community in A.D. 90 viewed the book of Revelation.

Look, this is how it is supposed to work. Someone says, "How do you know that?" You can then respond with something like, "I read a quote from the Roman historian Tacitus (or whoever) in which he said blah, blah, blah," or you can simply say that you don't have a clue. But to be evasive with a comment about how someone needs to go out and look something up is really a poor response. Either put your cards on the table or get out of the game, but don't just make statements that you can't back up.

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There you are! In black and white. Unbelievers (those who do not have faith) will spend eternity in hell. ALL THE REQUIREMENTS YOU DENIED HAVING!!!! I hope all those interested read this comment in your own words. Especially after you denied it so many times!

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I have never denied it, and I don't recall posting any requirements. If I did, then post the quote. The only exception I am aware of, and I have said this before, is for children or for those who are mentally unable to be held accountable.

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Exactly how someone has faith in Jesus without having heard of him is a bit of a mystery. But I detect an attempt to walk back your original belief. Keep trying.

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No, I'm attempting to have a thoughtful conversation with someone who is interested in pursuing the truth. I don't think that describes you, but I hold out hope that I am wrong.

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Excellent example. I was holding that one for you, but you needed to be much more advanced in your belief before I brought it up. You surprised me, but I am glad for it. Now, can you go a step further? The Pharisee was a Jew. What about a Samaritan? A good one. Can you extend the idea to a Buddhist, a Hindu, and the ultimate test, an atheist?

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No, the idea cannot be extended to those who pursue false gods. In the story Jesus spoke, the man was praying to the God of Israel, not to one of the millions of Hindu gods. As to Cornelius, when he began to seek God, then God responded by sending the gospel message to him.

How God responds to people is not the issue? It is entirely the issue. How God responds to your sins and my sins is 100% the issue. That God will someday judge every person for sin is, in fact, the very heart of the issue. When we all stand before a completely holy God and have to give account for wrong acts, then it is going to be a day that is going to be terrible. Those who have faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ have nothing to fear. Those who trust in their own goodness have everything to fear.

The idea that you were holding onto something until the right time made me laugh. It is funny how you seem to view yourself as the great fount of knowledge.

Look God responds to prayer whether in 90 AD or now. Revelation tells us something and we should be aware that this time is passing away. Now I don't expect to be around when the asteroids start falling, but if you read Revelation you get the message, time is short

Paraclete: You nailed it! Time is short and we are on the end of a lightning bolt as far as our time here on earth. Rather than debate who is or who isn't going to go to hell, you need to get right with God! THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT ANSWER because there is only one God......God, in his Divine Wisdom, will sort all of this debate out and the one who is correct will go one way and the one who is wrong will go some place else. It is sufficient to say that the MAJORITY of those ever born, before, now, and into the future, WILL NOT GET TO GO FORWARD UNTO HEAVEN.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

It is sufficient to say that the MAJORITY of those ever born, before, now, and into the future, WILL NOT GET TO GO FORWARD UNTO HEAVEN.

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What a depressing understanding of what the Bible really says! I weep!

W.G.: I agree with you, it is extremely depressing......and very entirely preventable.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

W.G.: I agree with you, it is extremely depressing......and very entirely preventable.

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YOUR inadequate understanding is what's depressing!

W.G.: Everyone can not go to heaven.....there are prerequisites that must be met....this is no different than many other tenets of life.....You can't expect wacked-out, cultic believing souls will receive passage into heaven, do you. For instance, atheist can not go to heaven: Do you know how many Marxist there are in world? Millions, possibly billions and NONE OF THEM will receive passage into the kingdom of heaven: To be a Bolshevik means that you are an atheist and to be an atheist means you can not get into heaven. Anyone who has committed blasphemy will not go. It is straightforward and clear as it can be. God will have the final say so.....I know nothing but my own interpretation of the word of the Lord so, please, don't shoot the messenger!