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I see your point and it is somewhat valid. My complaint is that, while you say you liberals have moved beyond Obama/Clinton, you liberals are complaining about issues with Trump that you chose to completely ignore with Obama and Clinton. As the old saying goes, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." It is your selective outrage that I object to.
Exactly my point JL. More attributed to the tribal partisan politics we practice than anything else, but after years of Obama bashing and plain obstruction at the expense of consensus, it's the Dufus's turn in the barrel, and conservatives. That's my main objection, the right whining because we are doing to Trump, what you did to Obama. Been that way all my life.
That's politics but at the expense of consensus and good orderly direction within the boundaries of good behavior. Yeah I'm as guilty as anyone in engaging in such primitive uncivil behavior. Conservatives are hard to work with and impossible to move forward with unless you roll over and let them have their way. Fortunately, we have elections every two years and 2020 is coming around quickly.
Silly season never ends in America, and neither did the civil war. Just less blood, more noise.
I think that's a fair statement. It really all comes down to policies. So what Trump policies do you disagree with?
After much thought, NONE, and his character is abismal.
You don't disagree with ANY of his policies??
My bad forgive my misread. I disagree with ALL of his policies and plans as being shortsighted, ill informed and incompetently implemented, and self serving.
Again sorry for the misread.
...and harmful.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Can you be specific with two or three?
1. Immigration, e.g., now with parents and their children permanently separatedQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
2. Repeal the ACA without replacing it with a better-thought-out plan
3. Has no interest in environmental concerns as reflected in various policies, e.g., oil pipelines and waterway protections
4. Build an unnecessary and even harmful wall on our southern border
Would you prefer they put the children in jail with the parents? Do you realize it is, as I understand it, it is the same policy Obama had? Why do you think the separation is permanent?Quote:
1. Immigration, e.g., now with parents and their children permanently separated
ACA has not been repealed.Quote:
2. Repeal the ACA without replacing it with a better-thought-out plan
Could you be more specific? We have had oil pipelines and waterways for a long time. And are you in favor of the lunatic fringe democrat suggestion put forward by AOC?Quote:
3. Has no interest in environmental concerns as reflected in various policies, e.g., oil pipelines and waterway protections
Matter of opinion. You don't want parents and children separated, but you don't want to do what it takes to stop illegal immigration.Quote:
4. Build an unnecessary and even harmful wall on our southern border
If we had a decent immigration system,jail wouldn't be necessary for the "millions" >sarcasm font< who come to our southern border. The separation of families is permanent because no one gave a hoot toward identifying and keeping track of the people who were separated. Heck, they're just poor brown people who can't speak English. Big deal....
ACA has been screwed up and is a total mess now. Trump planned to get rid of it.
I have no idea what AOC says. Oil pipelines should not cross waterways and private land or interfere with migrating animals. And we must put our best minds to work to get away from coal and oil use. We're in the 21st century!!!
Again, put a better immigration system on our southern border!!!! Then we won't have to worry about all those drug dealers (welcomed by OUR drug dealers and our young people) and gangsters (who love our easy-purchase gun culture) to move in.
I doubt that is true.Quote:
The separation of families is permanent because no one gave a hoot toward identifying and keeping track of the people who were separated. Heck, they're just poor brown people who can't speak English. Big deal....
It was screwed up from the word go, even back when President Obama was being dishonest about being able to keep your doctor and your policy.Quote:
ACA has been screwed up and is a total mess now. Trump planned to get rid of it.
Oil pipelines already do all those things and have been for decades. Can't pin that on Trump. I'm all for a rational, economic replacement for oil and gas. Let us know when you find out what it is.Quote:
I have no idea what AOC says. Oil pipelines should not cross waterways and private land or interfere with migrating animals. And we must put our best minds to work to get away from coal and oil use. We're in the 21st century!!!
Uhm... the drug dealers and gangsters slip across the border practically at will. The wall will stop that.Quote:
Again, put a better immigration system on our southern border!!!! Then we won't have to worry about all those drug dealers (welcomed by OUR drug dealers and our young people) and gangsters (who love our easy-purchase gun culture) to move in.
The drugs come in by air and water. Drug dealers laugh at the idea of a wall. Do you really think they'll say, "Gosh darn! Now there's a wall. I can't get into the US. Guess I'll go back home."Quote:
Uhm... the drug dealers and gangsters slip across the border practically at will. The wall will stop that.
What about the Rio Grande? I've yet to hear how building a wall is going to keep bicultural families and businesses prospering.
Your reference was not to drugs, but to drug dealers. That's what I referred to, but there is a river of drugs coming across the border. Yes they come in through other routes, but I am all in favor of stopping what we can, and primarily stopping the influx of illegal immigrants which the wall will be effective against.Quote:
The drugs come in by air and water. Drug dealers laugh at the idea of a wall. Do you really think they'll say, "Gosh darn! Now there's a wall. I can't get into the US. Guess I'll go back home."
Here in Texas we have dealt with LEGAL and illegal immigrants for a very long time without a wall until a loony started hollering about one.
So you deal with illegal immigrants by allowing them to pour across the border by the hundreds of thousands every year? You'll just have to pardon me if I am not impressed with that plan. No wonder we need to try something new.Quote:
Here in Texas we have dealt with LEGAL and illegal immigrants for a very long time without a wall until a loony started hollering about one.
JL, who's going to pick crops and work in orchards? Who's going to reroof houses? Who's going to do menial labor for the wealthy?
I'm all for immigrants coming across the border LEGALLY to work in America, but it also wouldn't be a bad idea to tell the current welfare recipients that we now have jobs for them.
Not very many live near the areas that need cheap labor. How do you propose they travel to those locations?
What would be wrong with them moving in order to gain employment? Kind of like an adult taking care of him/her self. Makes a lot more sense than taking money from Americans who DO work to give to someone else who doesn't want to move.
We're talking about "current welfare recipients" (who usually live near other family members). You brought it up. How can afford to move?
You've got a great list there.
Do what people have done for centuries. Sell everything you have, if need be, to buy a bus ticket. Do what has to be done. Act like a grown up and take care of yourself. People have done it for hundreds of years, and they used to do it in covered wagons. The greatest hindrance is the misplaced sympathies of liberals who want to treat these people like children and give them money taken from the pockets of others.Quote:
We're talking about "current welfare recipients" (who usually live near other family members). You brought it up. How can afford to move?
The people who currently have these jobs put what little they had in a backpack and sneaked across the border to get to those jobs. They walked the whole way. Don't you think that people who are already here and have some possessions can't do something similar?
The only path to the American dream is to get off your duff and get busy. Being on welfare is a lifetime sentence to mediocrity. It is a terrible thing to do to a free American.
You see, the people with nothing do this but those on welfare have too much to lose. Forget the american dream, that was last century and understand that you can only get what you work forQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So easy to denigrate others when you have what you want. Shouldn't you Christians stop the badmouth and be grateful for what you have and help others when you can? Should you, when you cannot ,help those that can help others?
Just asking.
I don't think I have done that.Quote:
So easy to denigrate others when you have what you want.
I think you sum up my belief in the matter very well. I do believe I should help others and regularly do so. Where you and I differ is that you believe you should be able to not just help the poor yourself, but compel others to do so as well.Quote:
Shouldn't you Christians stop the badmouth and be grateful for what you have and help others when you can? Should you, when you cannot ,help those that can help others?
Clete, I assure you the American dream is alive and well for those who are willing to work for it.
What about those who are willing but unable to work for it?Quote:
I assure you the American dream is alive and well for those who are willing to work for it.
Not real sure what your point is, but I suppose you are referencing those who are physically or mentally disabled. They are certainly in a difficult position, although there are a great many physically disabled people who have overcome their disability and become very successful. Still, would you rather be in the United States and be disabled, or be disabled in any country you can pick in Africa, South America, or Asia?
Nope. I'm referring to those who have children and aren't married, live amongst family who give them emotional and perhaps financial support, who have never lived away from "home", who didn't do well in school and maybe don't even have a hs diploma.Quote:
Not real sure what your point is, but I suppose you are referencing those who are physically or mentally disabled.
You have met people like this? That's a lot of qualifiers.Quote:
Nope. I'm referring to those who have children and aren't married, live amongst family who give them emotional and perhaps financial support, who have never lived away from "home", who didn't do well in school and maybe don't even have a hs diploma.
Yes, I'm a retired public librarian and also a counselor (internship that opened my eyes was at Catholic Charities). And that description also fits a niece-in-law. I personally know three guys with Asperger's who fit that description except they aren't married with kids and did graduate from h.s.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Well, Aspergers would be a disability. As to your niece-in-law, is your family helping her? Has she gotten her GED? Is she pursuing job skills? Is she committed to no more children outside of marriage (which essentially means no more sex outside of marriage)? I would hope your family would be sufficient to help her.
I'm a retired school principal/teacher and a chaplain at a drug rehab center. I am aware of the number of hard cases out there. The problem with many of these people, and it is a hard problem to solve, is that they have a history of bad choices and show no sign of correcting that. I don't say that in a judgmental manner, but just as a matter of truth. It is difficult to deal with.
Asperger's is the brain differently wired. If anything, it's a developmental disability that can be helped with CBT and similar therapies.
The problem with my niece-in-law is that her parents help her too much and always have. It's called enabling. I'm sure each person who doesn't work or who doesn't want to move to another, unfamiliar part of the US for a job has a story to tell.
Conservatives have no trouble demanding tribute to those they KNOW have difficulties and issues. Able bodied is able bodies and what they get is no sympathy. During the Obama administration repub governors had to have a waiver for the work requirements just because they had no jobs in some parts of their states. It was granted and a plan was implemented for educational programs instead and repub heads exploded.
Few if any can just migrate to a different location and start working at what's available without some assistance and help, not even my 50 year old miner friend in Pa. that was needing a job when the mine shutdown, and there just was none. This isn't the American dream it's a nightmare when such life disruptions occur through NO FAULT of their own. I guess his bad choice was being a miner.
People deserve better than criticism for bad choices, and bad situations they never made. It could take years to overcome such events in ones life with help, let alone without the right help. JL my friend, you are a good fellow with good works, and intentions, but sometimes that just not enough, and that's frustrating I know, but great... no... good outcomes are never guaranteed and maybe you live in a smallish community where everybody knows everybody, but the big cities are full of good people who have met a bad time and not always from bad choices either, just desperate ones.
Maybe you should sojourn to other places and learn the harshness of reality and gain insights into your fellow humans instead of condemning them and denying them REAL help. But for the grace of God go you!
End of sermon... for now!
Both of my parents were products of the depression. Dad ended up as an E-8 in the Air Force and mom took a work scholarship to college to become a teacher. Thankfully they did not use the "Tal, whine for me" approach to life. Oh, the harshness of reality! Oh how we deny people help! Whine, whine, whine. Please. Spare me the lecture. I've lived 65 years without that nonsense and I've no intention of starting now. If you are mentally and physically healthy, then get busy. Might have to move. Sorry about that, but that's life. Get on with it. Don't depend on the government. Don't have children outside of marriage. Get a job and work hard at it. It's not complicated. It can be hard, but not complicated.Quote:
Maybe you should sojourn to other places and learn the harshness of reality and gain insights into your fellow humans instead of condemning them and denying them REAL help. But for the grace of God go you!
If I need to help someone I will. I am helping a good friend right now, but am I in favor of getting people addicted to government aid? Not ever.
I love the way you conservatives frame your BS with YOUR personal story. It's irrelevant unless you can listen and empathize with the story of others.
How does that make "his story" any less relevant?
Products of or born during?Quote:
Both of my parents were products of the depression.
Actually born before. Spent their childhood/teenage years in the Depression. It really left a mark on my dad especially. His family in particular became desperately poor, dirt farmers in Mississippi. So yeah, I don't have much patience with people who want to sit around and feel sorry for themselves. I generally gave up feeling sorry for people a long time ago unless they are physically/mentally disabled. I have a friend right now, age 61, who can barely walk across the room. He would love to be able to work a 50 hour a week job, but can't. For those who can, I just don't feel sorry for you.Quote:
Products of or born during?
Both of my parents were born before and spent their growing-up years watching their parents cope (my father lived near Chicago and my mother in southcentral Idaho). I understand what you're saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Financial help isn't always what's needed to get someone energized. I've always enjoyed helping people figure out ways to help themselves and be hopeful.
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