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True...Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You you know what they say about ignorance being bliss. I learned from experience... the media is not to be trusted, or believed implicitly. Here in the USA or anyplace else. I also have no implicit trust for or take the word of anyone who makes a life long career out of politics. I trust people who earn a living from real jobs far more. Welfare class is = to Political Class. Both are leeches sucking life from the productive people in society.
Really true. Too many of them have their own agenda and it's not digging out the truth.Quote:
the media is not to be trusted, or believed implicitly.
Actual, real, Journalism died decades ago... what exists today is not any different that PRAVDA used to be.
Absolutely. Welfare actually does a disservices to poor people in teaching them to lose their initiative and just sit, depending on someone else to take care of them.Quote:
Since we aren't talking the severely handicapped people.. that means they are able bodied and fully capable of working. Can't find work where you are, then move to where the work is... I've done it more than once... so can they.
How ridiculous is that statement? Your attitude suggests you think starving and going without shelter and medical services is a better alternative. The let them eat cake attitude of the rich. The French were right, off with the heads of people like youQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Mentally and physically healthy people don't choose to starve and go without shelter. They get off their arse and get a job. Not really complicated. I never have understood the fake compassion of people like you. You want to have the self satisfaction of thinking that you have helped the poor, so long as it's not done with your own money but rather the resources of the taxpayers.
So you side with the French Revolution. I guess nothing else about you needs to be said. It is unfortunate to see someone so filled with contempt that he cannot carry on a civil discussion.Quote:
The French were right, off with the heads of people like you.
Geez JL, you make it sound as though everybody on welfare is a lazy b@stard who just sits around and waits on YOUR paycheck. You and Smoothy got that bad. Most of the people on welfare, are the working poor FAMILIES, children, and old people. How much initiative do you expect from kids and old people? Why would you deny or even sink that low to disparage low income people who need help with the basics? Haven't you even noticed the costs of the basics has gone up over the years, not down, which makes it MORE challenging, not less. I guess this is where you talk about how hard YOU worked to get where YOU'RE at, and they can do it too. Well many will and do, and so do their kids. Have you forgotten the challenges YOU had to overcome to get to YOUR goals?
So can it not be said that making working poor the lazy b@stards, we can make you UNGRATEFUL b@stards, because now that you have worked hard to make it, you have forgotten where you came from? Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, and mommy and daddy gave you everything you have now, those poor working class families were YOU back in the day. Or are you doing the same mudslinging and character assassination done to YOU when YOU were working hard to escape your own saga of poverty.
Personally I admire those from humble beginnings who worked hard and never forgot where they came from and feel no need to bad mouth the ones who come behind them. I worry about the UNGRATEFUL b@stards with bad memories though, who never learned you don't elevate yourself by putting someone else down, or ignoring the blessings you got along t
I have forgotten nothing. I worked hard as did my wife. We trusted God to help us. We struggled. Early on, I went fifteen months with no steady work, and we had our first child in the middle of that, but we never came to the place that you celebrate, where we felt we should have the right to force other people to support us. Now we are in a much better place, so we are able to help others, and we do. We don't sink to the place you are at, where you think that just because someone doesn't agree with you it gives you license to call them a bastard. That's sickening and pathetic, and it is so typical of modern day liberals. You cannot hold your own with reason and logic, so you sink to name-calling. Honestly, that's a disappointing response from you. I often don't agree with you, but to see you go this low is surprising.Quote:
because now that you have worked hard to make it, you have forgotten where you came from?
I haven't disparaged anyone. I guess that is now your area. I simply say that anyone who is mentally and physically healthy needs to get out and get a job, and get two jobs if need be. If they will work hard and smart, they can become successful. They shouldn't count on the generosity of people like you who are all too willing to try to impress the rest of us with their willingness to spend other people's money to, in their opinion, help the poor.
How did God help you? How did you eat? How did you shelter? How did you feed your baby?
Listen very carefully, as this might shock you. We Worked!! God provided us with mental and physical health. His word encouraged us. The life of His Son Jesus carried us. So there was nothing available to us that was not available to everyone else. We counted on no one to help us. We compelled no one to help us. I worked two jobs at one point. It was a team effort. That's what we need to encourage people to do. Finish high school. Don't have babies outside of marriage. Work hard at a job. Keep your big mouth shut and work. Learn everything you can. Make your marriage work. These are the important things. Don't compel other people to help you.
So you have walked in those shoes of the working poor, no public assistance and such, and paid your bills right? Caught buses and walked if you had to. Paid a hospital to deliver your child and the after care doctor visits. What was the minimum wage back then? We're the same age and we all did the same things back in the day. Best days of my life actually since we were all poor and struggling, and had to put our meager resources together for a deck of cards on Friday night, and potato salad and chick wings for us and OUR kids. My point is we were not struggling in isolation, we struggled together.
I guess it was a blessing to have that group support, and sorry you did not. No wonder you have a sourpuss attitude, and disparage others easily and often.
"sourpuss attitude, and disparage others easily and often." Good grief. "You don't agree with me, so you must be a sourpuss and one who disparages others." What an attitude. And you wonder why people might not agree with your logic??? Really?
We had people who helped us, but it was primarily us and God. I'm so glad that we never entered into your realm, where people just handed us money. Doing without taught us to work harder, and it made us respect and value each other. It's terrible that you deprive others of that. If you think that is not the case, then I question how much you have actually been involved with poor people. I worked at inner city schools many years. Our church was involved with inner city people. There were a lot of great parents we worked with, but the negative effects of welfare were very obvious.
Agree or disagree it's all good. You're a sourpuss not because you disagree with my logic, but because of what you post.Quote:
Good grief. "You don't agree with me, so you must be a sourpuss and one who disparages others." What an attitude. And you wonder why people might not agree with your logic??? Really?
I have to ask if it's the effects of public assistance programs, or the challenges of the process of those programs. Would appreciate elaboration if you can to those negative effects, as my experience indicates past traumas, or lack of support as being the obvious effects of a larger situation which has nothing to do with getting the right help to those that need it. Often is the case that food and shelter are not enough and more health centered assistance is more needed, maybe short term for some but many fall into the longer term more extensive assistance needed category.Talk about not answering the question...! Who were the people who helped you? HOW did they help you? How did God help you and your family?Quote:
We had people who helped us, but it was primarily us and God.
[QUOTE]I'm so glad that we never entered into your realm, where people just handed us money. Doing without taught us to work harder, and it made us respect and value each other. It's terrible that you deprive others of that. If you think that is not the case, then I question how much you have actually been involved with poor people.{/QUOTE]
I have never been in, or seen where anyone was just handed money. I have seen people wait all day for an interview and get assessed and explained as to what could be done, and the rules they have to adhere to, and what was expected of them if they did get help. It's quite a long and tedious process to sign up for any public assistance program, and follow through to keep that assistance, by showing COMPLIANCE and need, but of course you know that, but intentionally made it sound like a snap done deal, just show up with your hands out. Question all you want, but I know how to guide people through that process to get what they need to stand on there own. There is a whole network of us out here who know and want to help the willing through the challenges of learning how to fish and where the fish are biting.
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I worked at inner city schools many years. Our church was involved with inner city people. There were a lot of great parents we worked with, but the negative effects of welfare were very obvious.
People in wheel chairs are but a small part of those that are handicapped and mental issues are not always apparent. Deprivation does nothing for those in great need or their spirit. I guess you cannot grasp the concept that some need more help than others and fail to be grateful you are not among them. Not your fault you cannot grasp the full extent of the problem. An unwillingness to acknowledge that fact though is on you as you force your values on those that you don't value.
OK. Already answered that. Go back and read it.Quote:
How did God help you and your family?
Who helped us? My parents, primarily, but it was a small part of the whole. We were grateful for it, but it was 1% (or whatever) of our income. And I'm glad they didn't carry us!!! It made us grow up and learn to take care of ourselves. I'm so glad they did not have your crippling concept of charity.
It still comes down to this. If you can tell me why you think that some Americans have a right to take the income of other Americans, then we can see if your thinking makes sense. And that is still the bottom line. Phrase it any way you want, it is still some Americans being compelled to give their money to other people, some of whom are not even citizens.
The negative effects? "I don't need to work since I have welfare." That is rampant, and if you don't think it is, then I know you are not engaged with working with poor people.
I have never said that any individual has a right to take another's wages or possession's without your permission but that's not an individual of which you speak and OUR government, duly elected, are the ones taxing us, both your state, local, and federal government making the rules that make public assistance possible. As I pointed out talk to your conservative government officials about why they allow this travesty in your mind to continue since conservatives have the power to change things because they run MOST local and state governments as well as the federal government. You elected them, so why blame liberals when you are the one with the big stick?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"I don't need to work since I have welfare."
That's not in the rules of compliance as I laid out before. Maybe you should start with reading your own state requirements for receiving public assistance. Let me help you with the FACTS in your state.
https://www.needhelppayingbills.com/...ssissippi.html
Read the whole thing please as other states have similar rules. The system ain't perfect, but it's what we got. Change it if you don't like it, or move someplace that won't levy taxes for the public good. You live in a conservative state so why are you blaming liberals? You just like to blame liberals for all your imagined ills.Quote:
People who receive support from this program will also need to participate in an approved work activity, such as job training or an actual job. This needs to occur after they are determined to be "work ready" by their Department of Human Services social worker. Or they need to be in a work activity no longer than 24 months (within the 60 month lifetime maximum), whether or not consecutive, after receiving public assistance, whichever comes first.
So again, why should the government(conservative, liberal, whatever) have the right to compel any American to take some of their money and give it to another American? Why does that person have a right to any other American's money? Even if it is done through taxation, it amounts to the same thing. Compulsory charity.Quote:
I have never said that any individual has a right to take another's wages or possession's without your permission but that's not an individual of which you speak and OUR government, duly elected, are the ones taxing us, both your state, local, and federal government making the rules that make public assistance possible.
What will you do someday if YOU need financial assistance and there's no family help available or "charity pot" for you to dip into?Quote:
Even if it is done through taxation, it amounts to the same thing. Compulsory charity.
We the people GAVE them the RIGHT to make laws and levy taxes, and what's done with the money. We the people can also take it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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We the people GAVE them the RIGHT to make laws and levy taxes, and what's done with the money. We the people can also take it away.
No difference. On what basis do we, the people, have the right to go to a free American and tell him/her that another American has a right to take his income? There have been times I could have been convinced to support some types of welfare. No one likes the idea of poor people with no assistance, but I have been unable to answer (as have you) this nagging, foundational question. What right do I have to impose my views of charity on other people? They are certainly born in religious teaching. There is no rational, moral reason for an atheist to think we should help the down and out. So again, how do we, the people, have the right to force other Americans to engage in charity, saying that other Americans have a legal claim to their income? If you want to win me over, you must answer that question.
There is a price for that freedom you seek, but liberty, well as long are you are not incarcerated, celebrate
There is no answer for one who is stuck on the belief that they take YOUR money and give it to someone else against your will. Fact remains it's the LAW. The real question is what you do about it. It would seem if you can hold your nose and vote for Trump, you should hold your nose and obey the law.
It's amazing to me that you can so nonchalantly say such a thing. "They" take your money and give it to someone else against your will. Most people regard that as theft. Do you find it interesting that you have no answer as to why that would be OK other than "it's the LAW". It used to be the law that owning slaves was legal. So I will not accept your position since, essentially, you don't have one other than it must be OK since it is the law. But you would still need to justify why having such as law saying that it is fine that "they" take your money and give it to another person against your will is in any way what should be happening in a supposedly free country.Quote:
There is no answer for one who is stuck on the belief that they take YOUR money and give it to someone else against your will.
I am convinced that it is a morally correct thing to do for me to take some of my money and help the poor, but it is a moral travesty for me, or my elected representatives, to force you or anyone else to abide by my personal morality. It sure seems that is what you are advocating for.
I advocate a strong social safety net for citizens who find themselves in bad positions. I have nothing to do with your selective charity church work. The law was changed on slavery, maybe the law will change on stealing your money and giving it to the needy. Or maybe we eliminate the poverty, and you keep your freakin' money. You ready to move to a living wage or not?
I find it fascinating you and your ilk see the poor get poorer, and have nothing but bad words for them, and selective charity which obviously falls well short. While I agree with you 100% about getting the gamers, I also disagree strongly that they all are gamers, or takers.
Tal you have my agreement that there is a responsibility to look after everyone. If those who have the money are too mean to help then government has been appointed to get involved. I also think that funds should be diverted from military expenditure to ensure that the emphasis is on those who are in need.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I do not agree that taxation should be ramped up to meet every need without the individual also taking responsibility for their circumstance where it is possible to do so.
To suggest that the government should leave the field to church and charities is niaive and unrealistic.
Quick answer: Why taxes? Citizens have made a contract with federal, state, and local government. In exchange for taxes the citizens pay, they receive e.g., police and fire protection, public education, welfare programs, transportation infrastructure, defense funds, and public libraries.
I just don't like this idea of wanting to spend someone else's money to help the poor.Quote:
I advocate a strong social safety net for citizens who find themselves in bad positions. I have nothing to do with your selective charity church work. The law was changed on slavery, maybe the law will change on stealing your money and giving it to the needy. Or maybe we eliminate the poverty, and you keep your freakin' money. You ready to move to a living wage or not?
I find it fascinating you and your ilk see the poor get poorer, and have nothing but bad words for them, and selective charity which obviously falls well short. While I agree with you 100% about getting the gamers, I also disagree strongly that they all are gamers, or takers.
Watched a video recently about a young woman who was riding two buses and a ferry for 2 1/2 hours to get to work, and then the same time to get back home. That's pretty inspiring, but then you find out she is blind and uses a guide dog. So do I feel sorry for those who are mentally and physically healthy and don't work? No, I don't. If she can do it, then they can do it.
Want to impress us? Tell us how you are working a part-time job just to take care of your moral conviction to help poor people, rather than requiring other people to spend their money. That doesn't count. No American has a right to another American's income.
For one thing levying taxes are no longer your money, it's OUR money. Even the working poor kick in through a payroll deduction of taxes like everyone else (And immigrants legal or otherwise.). Some states like yours collect less than they get back from our government for things like Medicare, Medicaid, and public assistance, and some states like mine pay in more than they get back for federal programs and social services.
Sorry I cannot impress you with working a part time job to assuage my moral convictions, but I did volunteer time and efforts because it was the right thing to do, and I feel a good thing to do just as you do, I pay taxes just as you do. I am also subject to the same laws as you are, so I respectfully submit your grievance in this matter is misdirected and have suggested you look to your elected officials to resolve your grievances.
I can't do nothing for you!
Now that's a valid point. It was always thought in our history that when people pay taxes into a single "pot", then that money should be spent on those things that benefit everyone. Roads, bridges, schools, courts, police, military forces, and so forth benefit everyone. But now we have come to taking money and giving it to individuals. That is a different matter. It is compulsory charity.Quote:
For one thing levying taxes are no longer your money, it's OUR money.
BTW, I was not trying to be offensive with my reference to a part time job. I was trying to illustrate what I would respect from anyone who truly wanted to help the poor, but I realize that not everyone can take that particular route.
Taxes are compulsory. So are seatbelts. I have a few grievances where my tax dollars go to. I can understand being pissed about who gets what myself.
Just a matter of freedom to me. We should all contribute in taxes to what benefits everyone. But to take one person's money and give it to another person is compulsory charity. It's bad for the person whose money gets taken, and it's generally bad for the person who receives the money if that person is healthy. Over a long period of time, it robs them of initiative.
Yes by all means know who you are dealing with
I don't think (could be wrong as I've not followed this religiously) that the Russkies are accused of manipulating voting machines or of having non-citizens voting. It is more that they engaged in a propaganda campaign, and if that's the case, then voter ID would not stop them. However, I'm all in favor of voter ID, just not because of Putin.
I think I have already shown they don't just give it to another person as you put it, and recipients MUST work if healthy, and have a plan to eventually be independent of public assistance. The money put is not given to a healthy or others either, as the costs of such a system with case workers and social services sure ain't free, and it's that infrastructure, like any other that sucks up those tax dollars as well. How can you simply ignore those important facts written in black and white?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
How do you ignore the rising costs of poverty on us all, and the failure of government, state, local and federal combined with the best efforts of groups, volunteers, and churches to address this growing problem of POVERTY. Making it about your individual freedom helps no one, not even yourself. It greatly exastrabates the problem and leaves us NO solution.
Please offer alternatives to what I admit is an underperforming system.
Goes deeper than just propaganda as they have hacked candidates and staff, as well as local vendors and governments. I'm for comprehensive ID's, not just for voting but for everything, as it's been long past time to upgrade our cyber infrastructures in more solid ways. Closing voting places and purging voter rolls though is politically dastardly and undermines the cyber deficiencies we already have and distracts us and government of the tools to properly implement solid process to achieve the security and system integrity we deserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
My post was satirical. What does "hacking " a candidate even mean ? Gaining access to email ? Up to the candidates to secure their systems . We had a Sec State who refused to protect her server that she used to conduct classified government business . Are we then supposed to be shocked that any hacker was able to access it ? There is so nothing there . Our system says that locals control how elections are conducted and gives wide latitude for that . So if a state wants tight voter controls ,it is within it's powers to do so . And if a loony town like San Fran want to let illegals vote it is the same deal .
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I have worked for years with poor people. I have seen welfare recipients without number who could work (were healthy) but did not. And yes, the money is given to other persons. Who do you think they give it to, their dogs?? Earned income credit checks, food stamps (SNAP), which can be used in restaurants in many states, TANF checks go out to individuals (and your wonderful President Obama rescinded the work requirements of that act), and of course housing and health insurance supplements, not to mention free cell phones that your favorite president handed out. It is not uncommon for a single mom, with three kids from different fathers, to be getting all of the above while her boyfriend is living with her and also getting benefits. With all due respect, you just don't have your facts straight.Quote:
I think I have already shown they don't just give it to another person as you put it, and recipients MUST work if healthy, and have a plan to eventually be independent of public assistance. The money put is not given to a healthy or others either, as the costs of such a system with case workers and social services sure ain't free, and it's that infrastructure, like any other that sucks up those tax dollars as well. How can you simply ignore those important facts written in black and white?
Maybe it makes you feel better to imagine that the feds don't take money from some Americans to give to others, but that is exactly what is happening.
Honestly, the more you post, the more I think you have very little experience in working with the poor. Might be wrong about that, but it sure seems that way.
That's a good post. The only question I have is San Fran (a.k.a. Looneyville) allowing illegals to vote in federal elections. I would think that would be a violation of law. Still, that was a good post. The dems didn't protect their data, and now they want to whine about it.Quote:
My post was satirical. What does "hacking " a candidate even mean ? Gaining access to email ? Up to the candidates to secure their systems . We had a Sec State who refused to protect her server that she used to conduct classified government business . Are we then supposed to be shocked that any hacker was able to access it ? There is so nothing there . Our system says that locals control how elections are conducted and gives wide latitude for that . So if a state wants tight voter controls ,it is within it's powers to do so . And if a loony town like San Fran want to let illegals vote it is the same deal .
So why aren't state and local jurisdictions doing more to secure their cyber infrastructures. Didn't they learn a darn thing from Target, Sony,and others what the threat is to them? I guess not. Nice going bringing Hillary and illegals voting into this, though Hillary's emails weren't hacked, nor has illegals voting ever been proved. All the social networks are catching hell from cyber attacks, now evidently from Iran as well, and are scuffling to show they are dealing with this issue, which may be great PR to help the corporate bottom line but is it a effective as they say? Obviously not at this time, since it still is happening.
So lets not just sluff it off with justifying knee jerk half a$$ purges and closing polls and kidnapping kids and making them disappear because the illegals are invading our political system and life, and get with the foreign governments screwing with our minds in cyberspace. The Dufus seems to busy with star wars to acknowledge Cyber Wars and covering his own butt from the females turning against him and Mueller probing up his anus to do anything about the real FAKE news that's not the media.
If I have to EXPLAIN what hacking a candidate means, then no point in telling you it's only the tip of the iceberg you can see.
Re illegals voting .. the 14th amendment states voting rights "shall not be denied or abridged on the basis of race, color or previous condition of servitude." .... and the 26th sets the age limit . There is nothing constitutionally prohibiting illegals from voting . State laws have always fluctuated on that issue .It was not until 1928 that an election was held where no non-citizen voted . Since 1996, a federal law has prohibited non-citizens from voting in federal elections But that is by congressional statute that could be reversed any time the right balance became the majority . But you are right that local laws about suffrage do not apply to Federal elections ....yet although I imagine there isn't much of an effort to prevent it in San Fran,
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