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You of all people have to know that you cannot play to the worst or lowest denominator when identifying a problem and formulating a solution. As long as the game is rigged to consolidate power in the hands of the few, and the many mill around in non participation, we all will dwell in stagnation and non production.
Hollering, screaming, and calling names is but a distraction and a deterrent to compromise, through debate.
Let me ask ... When Sandanista Bill DeBlasio and the emperor close down charter schools in the inner cities, that have proven to be a great benefit for the students who attend ,are they cow-towing to a special interest (the teacher's union ) ;or are they playing their own 'race card ' ? Or is it that when a choice has to be made between a special interest that supports the Dems ,and what's best for minority students ;the students get the shaft ?
What DeBlasio is doing to minority students is the same thing that George Wallace did to minority students when he stood in front of the doors of the University of Alabama preventing minorities from entering .
As Thomas Sowell asks :
Charter Schools: Where The Left Exposes Its Anti-Minority Bias - Investors.comQuote:
These schools have given thousands of low-income minority children their only shot at a decent education, which often means their only shot at a decent life. Last year 82% of the students at a charter school called Success Academy passed citywide mathematics exams, compared to 30% of the students in the city as a whole.
Why would anybody who has any concern at all about minority young people — or even common decency — want to destroy what progress has already been made?
Two sides to the tory here Tom, and this is a national issue about funding and serving more kids. I have written before about the millions of kids left behind because they didn't win a lottery.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/ny...do-battle.html
Her group is well funded and well paid, so why can't they get their own buildings and not displace current students who didn't win the lottery. I mean 6700 students helped and 1.1 million left behind?Quote:
The advocacy group that organized the rally, Families for Excellent Schools, recently started a multimillion-dollar television ad campaign praising charter schools and calling on the mayor not to hold them back.
The typical privateers growth and profit plan, turning kids into a commodity.Quote:
In his campaign last year, Mr. de Blasio took aim at charter schools, saying they had a “destructive impact” on traditional schools. He has promised to charge rent to well-financed charter schools, which are privately run but publicly financed, for using public school buildings, and he has placed a moratorium on future requests for classroom space inside traditional district schools..........Ms. Moskowitz said she feared her clash with the mayor could scare off financial contributors anxious about the viability of charters. But she was unapologetic about her defense of her schools and attempts to keep adding more of them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/ny...rref=education
So framing the debate around 3 private/charter schools and not recognizing the 30 who were approved would be an omission of the facts. SPIN, to make the big money look better, while it burdens taxpayers. I can't believe you actually fall on the side of a rich corporation that doesn't pay rent. If only public schools could operate under the same condition.Quote:
Hours after facing tough questions on MSNBC, Mr. de Blasio made a surprise appearance at a meeting of a group of charter school executives who had been invited to City Hall, speaking for more than 45 minutes about his approach to education.
too bad about the kids not winning the lottery . Why would you deny the many students that do ? Look at New Orleans . Over 70 % of the students are in charters . That is the future for education and will be until the teachers divorce themselves from their corrupt unions .
I'll say it again . You libs are good at throwing the word 'racist' around ,and refuse to see how your own misguided policies are even more so . We are the ones who are looking out for the welfare of the minority students and creating polices that have a proven performance. The only conclusion I can come up with is that progressives want to keep the minority students down and not competitive . The true goal of progressive agenda is to enslave minorities in a culture of dependency .
Teaching a few for big bucks is no excuse to funnel needed resources from those that cannot win the lottery. That's abandoning No Child left Behind (good idea but no resources behind it from a compassionate conservative, but implementation was entirely local with NO government backing).
Your idea of privatizing the school system for profit has a few holes in it as even you have conceded the broken business model. Surely there can be found a profit sharing formulae for the maintenance of buildings and serving more kids, by private and government cooperation. Why does education have to be so adversarial to work? Kids are not supposed to be a commodity but a priority despite the partisan rhetoric. Creating a revenue stream for privateers should not be the priority.
I've conceded no such thing unless you are talking about the hopelessly broken public school systems. Stanford Study Says Charter School Children Outperform - BloombergQuote:
even you have conceded the broken business model
That's a question to ask the teacher's unions . Who's interest are they serving 1st ?Quote:
Why does education have to be so adversarial to work?
Now come on, many teachers unions are working with administrations and local officials around the country. Their input is as valuable as profiteers I would say since so far the business model of schools charter, or public has mixed results. You seem to want an unlimited revenue stream of taxpayer money, which amount to taxpayer subsidies of private corporations.
But then you probably think it's a great idea for profiteers to pay no rent, nor contribute to the maintenance of the buildings they occupy while increasing class sizes of the public sections of the building. I don't, and 6700 kids does not outweigh the 1.1 million who are adversely affected. Buy your own building then and pay for the bus's and make big bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Exactly, if the actual problem goes undetected then there is little chance of finding a solution.
"..equivalent to 36 additional days of learning maths.."Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
"...learned eight more days of reading a year than a pupil in a regular school..."
Does anyone know what these terms mean? I am assuming it is a tool for making a comparison.
got me ask the egg heads at Stanford .It's a prestigious research university that has churned out 58 Nobel laureates .
Stanford University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You offer a study as proof of something but you do not know what the study means?Quote:
got me ask the egg heads at Stanford
The study means there are some charter schools that are better than others and the least performing get closed at a 20% rate (1 in 5). It doesn't say where those kids go, probably back to a public school, like the ones who lose the lottery for placements in the first place.
The other alternative would be to take the best performing kids from the charter schools that are about to be closed and place them in the high performing charter schools. Survival of the fittest.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
as I said ;the libs would deny these children an opportunity to excel.
Or find better ways to use public school resources, and find more revenue streams for the supporting neighborhoods and citizens. At the heart of the issue and often lost, is the very debilitating economic effects from not just the GFC, but the fiscal policies that have starved the circulation of real capital in many regions of this country.
Its NOT a coincidence that schools are failing as resources become scarce, where cities are also failing from a lack of resources. It's the basic cause and effect of rising costs and no way to raise revenue to keep up. Even in New York with all those rich types, ordinary people are beset by how to allocate the money. The wages of ordinary citizens has not kept up with the rising costs in the more expensive places in the world to live.
BS we've seen your failed experiments in public education for years Give it up already .. We could line the floors of every school in the nation with gold tiles with all the money your experiments have squandered .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Tuttyd.......It is saying that in the charter schools that they looked at, the students received increased instructional time thought to be equal to having that many extra days of instruction.
There must be a disconnect here somewhere, we have had private schools as well as public schools since foundation and we don't have the experience of poor outcomes that you seem to experience, this is not to say that the performance of students in underpriviliged areas doesn't lag, but this is cultural and not a criticism of the school system. Funding is always an issue but a centralised system of funding removes local bias and ensures funds are directed where they should be.
Thanks for that info.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoulaLC
That's pretty good from the guys that held the doors open for the bank robbers, and then directed the posse in the opposite direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
There has been a growing trend of disconnect with schools and education in some families. The lack of importance education is given is alarming. If the general public knew how much instructional time is lost to behavior redirection they would be amazed and dismayed.
Similar to charter schools, some school districts will have fundamental schools. They follow the same district, state, and federal requirements, but they hold their students and parents to a higher standard. They tend to have higher performance outcomes for that very reason. Parents sign-up to have their children go to these schools, and there is often a waiting list.
nice deflection
That happens when you cut nurses, counselors, and teachers, and increase class size, had have a low parent participation rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoulaLC
Often parents have as many needs to be addressed as their children do.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoulaLC
.Quote:
Often parents have as many needs to be addressed as their children do
Schools are about educating children not educating parents. Admittently they do need parents to support important goals and objectives but they cannot modify parential behaviour. When we get back to ensuring students have good outcomes everyone will be happy
If that's what they were actually doing... there wouldn't be a problem. But they spend more time indocrinating than they do teaching... and it shows in the ever dropping education levels.
When I was in school...kids could have named the capitols of most countries along with the names of most countries, AND find them on a globe, not to mention every states capital. Today they are lucky to find the USA on a globe.
Yes education has changed everywhere, I remember when they introduced the new mathematics, I could barely understand what my children were talking about, let alone help them and yet parents are expected to help and as ciricullum changes parents have less ability to help and understand. What I do know though is our schools turn out a high percentage of kids with good understanding even if the parents can't get closely involvedQuote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Who else but the parents can effectively address behavior or learning problems? Or even distresses and disruptions at home?
And this is a left wing publication...Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Steven Shehori: Poll: 37% of Americans Unable to Locate America on Map of America
Its also a reprinted submission by a comedy writer from 2008, and marked as satire. You didn't engage the humor font.
The humor font is broken... might get fixed on the next upgrade.
Here's a British poll.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/young-ame...hy/9427-2.html
Heres one from the National Geographic..the complete report is in a link in this page...its a PDF document.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ro.../findings.html
That text was extracted from your article, it might be humour but I consider it a pathetic indictment of the misuse of language and a complete abdication of comprehension.Quote:
a full 37 percent of American citizens are incapable of identifying their home country on a map of the United States.
THe first one was a joke... the second and third links were quite serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
THe first one was by a very well known lefty publication on the left coast.
I also think its sad that despite billions (probibly Trillions) spent to line the pockets of teachers and unions the quality of education has continued to drop significantly. the last 30+ years.
Hmmm. The president 30 years ago was... REAGAN!! Unions have been declining since. So have wages.
United States presidential election, 1984 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The social programs of the left have encouraged the break up of the family unit .All this was a predictable outcome .I still say it was racism from the git go . When Johnson signed legislation supporting his Great Society he said “I'll have those n*****s voting Democratic for the next 200 years."
I'm going to address a few comments that are often raised when concerns about education arise.
Talaniman: Yes, you are exactly right that parents often have needs of their own that need to be addressed. Many families are nothing like those most of us have likely encountered when we were young. Just one case in point... a class of 18 second graders and 7 of them have a parent in jail. To top it off, it is seen as a badge of honor. The neighborhood where these second graders reside has quite a large number of half brothers and sisters as some parents move from one spouse, or partner, to another. Some children go home not knowing if mom will be drunk on the couch or even there. One little girl is repeatedly late because her mother didn't call her to wake her up. Mom is sleeping in the next room and calls the girl on her cell phone to tell her to get up and get ready for school. At Back-to-School night, out of the 18, 3 parents show up. A homework packet goes home every Monday with work that needs to be looked over, signed and returned. The minimal homework that is included is for extra practice. Routinely about 8 of those packets get done each week. An agenda goes home as one means of communication between classroom and home. It is to be initialed to know that it was seen. Some parents just initial everyday on the first of the week, most don't at all. One little boy comes in crying because he tried to get mom to look at it, but she told him to go away; she wasn't going to sign anything. When you do let a parent know what their child is doing, far too often the parent becomes belligerent. This is just a snapshot of one school in our district. Certainly not all classrooms are this way, nor are all schools, but you take what you get and do the best that you can. This is a large district... all the teachers attend the same professional trainings, they have the same curriculum, the schools have basically the same technology available to them, but you will see a vast difference in outcomes and that comes from behaviors which stem from home.
Class size is only part of the issue. Where I am, there has been a change in class sizes. However, behavior concerns have increased over the last several years. Too many children are parenting themselves. Parents do have their own issues, and they either don't know how to parent or they have no real interest in parenting. I can't tell you how many times I have heard from a child that they couldn't do an assignment because dad was either at work or on the computer. More and more parents are more hooked into the technology than they are to their children. Certainly more so than years back.
Paraclete: You are correct... schools shouldn't have to educate parents, but in reality they often do; if indirectly. They also often have to "parent" the children. Many times schools get the blame for not teaching things such as sex education, but then they also get the blame for teaching it and "promoting" promiscuity. Character development, which should come from home, is taught in many, many schools. Those are just two examples.
Parents don't have to know all the ways to help with schoowork, but a tremendous change would be seen if they knew how to parent... and if they made education important in their child's life. During a parent conference, I've had the parent of a 9 year old tell me that their child acted the same way at home and they didn't know what to do about it. So we talked about some things to put in place that would be consistent at both school and home. This was not the first time I've had a parent throw up their arms and shrug their shoulders, not knowing what to do... so they were doing nothing. The child was pretty much calling the shots. If this is happening at 8 or 9 years old, imagine what it will be like when they are 16 or 17? I give the parents credit for at least coming to a conference as many times you never can reach a parent.
Smoothy: I have no doubt that there are some who do their share of indoctrinating, but I would guess that this is more so on a higher level. The foundation starts in elementary school for student behavior and expectations. Study skills, responsibility, a love of learning, all start there.
You will always have some bad apples in any profession, including teaching. What has really changed over the last decade or so has been how society views education. Schools have become the scape goat for many of society's ills... no one wants to include parents into the mix of accountability. Certainly not politicians as parents are the voters.
Why do you think charter schools, fundamental schools, and often private schools often do well? The parents have to try to get into these schools, or pay for it in some cases... it is a given that the majority then likely hold education important enough to jump through the hopes. These schools can hold the children and parents more accountable, because if they don't measure up, if they don't follow the rules, they can be sent elsewhere... back to their local public school. Public schools can't send kids who don't behave back anywhere. For more and more parents, school is basically free babysitting. Sadly, it sometimes feels that way when you have less time for teaching, because you are having to spend more time with redirecting.
Money will help some schools, no question there. However, I would much rather have a class of 30, in a run down building, with few text books if the children were well behaved, and parents valued education than a class of 15, in a new facility, with plenty of technology, but 5 of the students were out of control and the parents couldn't be bothered.
Imagine going into your office each day and you are responsible for making sure that 20 of your co-workers know what they need to know and get their jobs done. You have 3 who are consistently out of control... disrupting your presentations... getting up to go talk to someone... rolling on the floor... and you have to wait for them to get back in order before you can continue so the others can listen effectively and learn what they need to know. When all of the co-workers don't understand parts of what was expected of them, your boss wants to know why you didn't do your job. It doesn't matter that some of the co-workers wouldn't follow the rules or expectations. You don't get to send them elsewhere so that you can focus on the workers who are listening.
Many teachers are getting burned out. They are tired of working their tails off, often taking work home at night and on weekends, planning lessons, creating activities to support their lessons, keeping up on the documentation, etc. and then taking the blame. They beat their heads against the wall and feel that they make little headway. Yet... they carry on, do their best with what they are given, and take it. Don't even get me started on all of the prescribed testing!
Thankfully, most parents know the value of education.....unfortunately, too many do not and it shows in numerous ways that effect education.
Such a disservice to our children, and yet, it will likely take a lost generation to realize it. Teachers know it, they see the reality, they live it everyday... but of course, few ask for their professional input.
an interesting treatise, but the fundamental problem is teaching standards have to be enforced. burntout teachers don't turn out good students and parents are not to blame for under resourced teachers. you want to say standards have fallen in the last 30 years, well take a look at your politicians, I would say standards have fallen there too. What has happened in the last thirty years? the boogie man has been slain, the threat which created the problem has just blown away on the wind and people have realised how they we lied to and that brilliant future just isn't there. I remember being told years ago; we had to teach you something so we taught you that, and it applies in every endeavour. We don't have the latest information, method etc to teach the young and so we teach them bullsh#t and when they find out, they are shattered because what they thought was truth was in fact a lie
Society has lost respect for teachers and the result is educations standards have dropped and the problem has become generational
When the parents main goal is the attempt to appear wealthy then other things suffer.
THe problem with educational standards dropping in the USA at least has nothing to do with respect for teachers... their publicly whining for more and more money while most other people are making less and less... and most make less than the teachers themselves make... has everythign to do with the loss of respect.
THey have been begging for more and more money claiming the quality of education will suffer if they don't get it. We they got it, over and over and yet every time the quality of education keeps going downward.
Its because they waste time teaching kids how admirible it is to have two dadies or two momies... teaching 8 year olds how to use condoms... instead of teaching them the three R's. (known as reading writing and arithmetic) for the non-americans... its because kids used to mispronounce them . Readin, ritin, and rithmatic.
Because of the teaching unions its almopst impossible to fire a teacher who sucks at their job... unless they are on video impregnating a student... and even then its not a slam dunk.
Because of the teachingJoel Klein vs. New York City teachers : The New YorkerQuote:
unions its almopst impossible to fire a teacher... unless they are on video impregnating a student... and even then its not a slam dunk.
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