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  • Aug 31, 2013, 04:36 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    like I care about international standards.. the real question is ,do international universities measure up to our standards ? It is not the government's business to grade universities. But Henniger does make a valid point. These universities accept government handouts and then are surprised when there are strings attached. But a private university can rightly tell his to shove his rating where the sun don't shine.

    I think it is obvious that the author of the article doesn't care for national standards. In this particular instance I think that the proposal is a bad one for many reasons. I also suspect the author would probably rejects international standards as well.

    I don't think we can write an article complaining about some type of federal implication of standards and take the opportunity to complain about falling standards in schools.

    Considering the size of our nation our universities are up to your standards.
  • Aug 31, 2013, 06:29 PM
    paraclete
    Of course international universities meet and exceed your standards. You have some good universities, so do others and we have come to expect you think you are superior in all respects, the master race. But you can't have a failing school system and expect your standards to be maintained, too many sporting scholarships and too little academic achievement
  • Sep 1, 2013, 03:01 AM
    tomder55
    In the fields of the hard sciences ,mathematics ,engineering ,computing etc there are more internatonal students graduating from American universities than American students . International students make up 70 percent of the full-time electrical engineering graduate students in the United States, 63 percent of those in computer science, and more than half in industrial engineering, economics, chemical engineering, materials engineering and mechanical engineering.
    Yes that is part an indictment of the failed liberal public education system here ,but it also demonstrates the high standards and reputations of the American university system... a system that the idiot emperor wants to tinker with .
  • Sep 1, 2013, 05:20 AM
    talaniman
    I don't think getting potential students to be more aware and informed of the options and opportunities they have and a tool to make a choice is tinkering with the system. They are the ones getting in debt for an education and future employment.

    I would think you would be in favor of weeding out the schools that get federal dollars but don't prepare these young people for future employment which is the point of passing all that money around.

    More bang for your buck is what a capitalist would say right? Facts beyond the brochures, marketing, and staged tours. I see it affecting the online and community colleges more than well funded bigger universities.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 05:25 AM
    speechlesstx
    The federal government tinkering with our colleges and universities? What could go wrong?
  • Sep 1, 2013, 05:48 AM
    talaniman
    Would you let your kid enroll in an on line class because of a commercial that runs all day and night without looking deeper into it? Get in debt because of it? How would you check them out?

    The onus and responsibility is on the consumer, not the government. That would be you. Are you against consumer protection?
  • Sep 1, 2013, 06:06 AM
    tomder55
    It is easy to check out colleges . I don't need the gvt to do it for me.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 06:11 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Would you let your kid enroll in an on line class because of a commercial that runs all day and night without looking deeper into it? Get in debt because of it? How would you check them out?

    The onus and responsibility is on the consumer, not the government. That would be you. Are you against consumer protection?

    Like how they vet non-profits in the IRS? I'm always amazed at your confidence in government.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 06:19 AM
    talaniman
    It's MY government!! I voted, yes I have ID.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 06:22 AM
    speechlesstx
    Good for you, most of us don't share your enthusiasm and for good reason.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 06:52 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    in the fields of the hard sciences ,mathematics ,engineering ,computing etc there are more internatonal students graduating from American universities than American students . International students make up 70 percent of the full-time electrical engineering graduate students in the United States, 63 percent of those in computer science, and more than half in industrial engineering, economics, chemical engineering, materials engineering and mechanical engineering.
    Yes that is part an indictment of the failed liberal public education system here ,but it also demonstrates the high standards and reputations of the American university system..... a system that the idiot emperor wants to tinker with .

    Tom we all make good money training the students of the world, without these students there would be less of these universities
  • Sep 1, 2013, 07:13 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    it is easy to check out colleges . I don't need the gvt to do it for me.

    Not every one is as skilled and experienced as you Tom, and I don't know how easy it is to get certification and affiliation information from some of these online schools that have popped up the last few years, and as Clete says the profit are enormous.
  • Sep 1, 2013, 07:16 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Like how they vet non-profits in the IRS? I'm always amazed at your confidence in government.

    You are way behind on that subject.
  • Sep 3, 2013, 06:33 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You are way behind on that subject.

    Obviously the analogy went over your head.
  • Sep 3, 2013, 06:38 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Not every one is as skilled and experienced as you Tom, and I don't know how easy it is to get certification and affiliation information from some of these online schools that have popped up the last few years, and as Clete says the profit are enormous.

    That's the shonky fringe schools, Tal, but mainline universities have a large percentage of overseas students
  • Sep 3, 2013, 10:53 AM
    speechlesstx
    Here we go again...

    Father of molested student talks about his outrage toward seven teachers who supported the rapist

    I'll spare you the horrific details here, but at least the judge got it right this time in spite of the teachers and board member pleading for leniency for this pervert.

    Quote:

    Neal has pled (sic) guilty for his one criminal offense but he is not a predator,” teacher Harriett Coe wrote, according to the Herald. “This was an isolated incident. He understands the severity of his action and is sincere in his desire to make amends. He has been candid and conveyed his action to his family, friends and co-workers.”

    In all, 10 people, including seven WB-RC teachers, submitted letters of support for Erickson, most pleading for a reduced sentence. They included Campbell, Amy Eagan, Coe, Toni Erickson, Carol Rau, Marilyn Glover, Sandi Lee, Kathryn Weber, Kathleen Sheel and Kathleen Palmer, the Herald reports.

    Judge Michael Bumgartner told Erickson he was “appalled and ashamed that the community could rally around, in this case, you,” according to the Herald.

    What you did was a jab in the eye with a sharp stick to every parent who trusts a teacher,” he said shortly before sentencing Erickson to 15-30 years in prison.
    Absolutely right, judge.
  • Sep 3, 2013, 03:18 PM
    talaniman
    The system worked, that's great ain't it?
  • Sep 3, 2013, 04:20 PM
    speechlesstx
    The judicial system worked, the education system did not.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 06:59 AM
    speechlesstx
    From the WaPo editors...

    Quote:

    Justice Department bids to trap poor, black children in ineffective schools

    NINE OF 10 Louisiana children who receive vouchers to attend private schools are black. All are poor and, if not for the state assistance, would be consigned to low-performing or failing schools with little chance of learning the skills they will need to succeed as adults. So it’s bewildering, if not downright perverse, for the Obama administration to use the banner of civil rights to bring a misguided suit that would block these disadvantaged students from getting the better educational opportunities they are due.

    The Justice Department has petitioned a U.S. District Courtto bar Louisiana from awarding vouchers for the 2014-15 school year to students in public school systems that are under federal desegregation orders, unless the vouchers are first approved by a federal judge. The government argues that allowing students to leave their public schools for vouchered private schools threatens to disrupt the desegregation of school systems. A hearing is tentatively set for Sept. 19.

    There’s no denying the state’s racist history of school segregation or its ugly efforts in the late 1960s and early 1970s to undermine desegregation orders by helping white children to evade racially integrated schools. These efforts included funneling public money to all-white private schools. But the situation today bears no resemblance to those terrible days. Since most of the students using vouchers are black, it is, as State Education Superintendent John White pointed out to the New Orleans Times-Picayune, “a little ridiculous” to argue that the departure of mostly black students to voucher schools would make their home school systems less white. Every private school participating in the voucher program must comply with the color-blind policies of the federal desegregation court orders.

    The government’s argument that “the loss of students through the voucher program reversed much of the progress made toward integration” becomes even more absurd upon examination of the cases it cited in its petition. Consider the analysis from University of Arkansas professor of education reform Jay P. Greene of a school that lost five white students through vouchers and saw a shift in racial composition from 29.6 percent white to 28.9 percent white. Another school that lost six black students and saw a change in racial composition from 30.1 percent black to 29.2 percent black. “Though the students . . . almost certainly would not have noticed a difference, the racial bean counters at the DOJ see worsening segregation,” Mr. Greene wrote on his blog.

    The number that should matter to federal officials is this: Roughly 86 percent of students in the voucher program came from schools that were rated D or F. Mr. White called ironic using rules to fight racism to keep students in failing schools; we think it appalling.

    Unfortunately, though, it is not a surprise from an administration that, despite its generally progressive views on school reform, has proven to be hostile — as witnessed by its petty machinations against D.C.’s voucher program — to the school choice afforded by private-school vouchers. Mr. White told us that from Day One, the five-year-old voucher program has been subject to unrelenting scrutiny and questions from federal officials. Louisiana parents are clamoring for the choice afforded by this program; the state is insisting on accountability; poor students are benefiting. The federal government should get out of the way.
    Did you catch that headline? From WaPo?

    "Justice Department bids to trap poor, black children in ineffective schools"

    Why would they do that? Do the children come first or not?
  • Sep 4, 2013, 07:40 AM
    NeedKarma
    Apparently not since there seem to be an abundance of schools rated D or F. No one seems to care.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 08:19 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Apparently not since there seem to be an abundance of schools rated D or F. No one seems to care.

    Sigh, I guess you missed the whole point.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 08:36 AM
    NeedKarma
    You focused on one thing and I saw another. No harm, no foul.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 08:40 AM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    From the WaPo editors...



    Did you catch that headline? From WaPo?

    "Justice Department bids to trap poor, black children in ineffective schools"

    Why would they do that? Do the children come first or not?


    Weren't you previously supporting equal rights under the law?
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:09 AM
    talaniman
    Louisiana Sends Kids to Private Religious Schools, Test Scores Don't Go Up | Care2 Causes

    Quote:

    In other words, the best way to improve failing schools is to put fewer resources into them.

    In May of this year, the Louisiana Supreme Court ruled that the manner of funding violated the state's constitution and the state must repay the $30 million dollars to the public schools.

    Now faced with trying to find funds for the estimated $45 million dollar cost for the voucher program, Louisiana must also deal with the reality that voucher students are performing worse on standardized tests than their public school counterparts. In results released also in May, 60 percent of voucher students failed to score at or above grade level in the LEAP testing given to third through eighth graders. The 40 percent proficiency level of voucher students was significantly lower than the state average of 69 percent.

    The testing at the private voucher schools are for accountability purposes since they receive taxpayer funds. Seven of the schools performed so badly for the past three years (less than 25% of the voucher students scored at proficient levels in any year), they are no longer allowed to accept new voucher students (current students can remain).

    These seven schools are also the most dependent on public funds of all the voucher schools.

    The state superintendent told The Times-Picayune that the low 2013 scores for voucher students were due to a large influx of students from poor performing schools, indicating that 61 percent of the students were in their first year at the school.

    Of course, this does not explain why voucher students in the previous year were only at 33 percent proficiency.

    Perhaps the poor performance of the voucher students has something to do with the curriculum in the schools. In 2008, the same year that the voucher program was approved for New Orleans, the legislature passed the Louisiana Science Education Act. The ironically titled act encourages the teaching of creationism as an actual competing theory to evolution.
    Quote:

    Of the approximately 130 voucher schools, 20 purposely use textbooks and guides in their “science” programs that promote Biblical theories. While they will indicate that “evolutionists” believe something different, God's word is the one they should always trust. So if God says that dinosaurs and people lived on an earth that is only 6,000 years old, that is the correct test answer.

    Unfortunately, standardized tests don't agree.


    In December of 2012, the Orleans Parish School Board prohibited the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in public schools. Orleans Parish had 84 percent proficiency on the LEAP tests. Of the seven voucher schools that had less than 25% proficiency, three of them have a biblical based curriculum for their science teachings.

    The majority of the voucher schools are religious.

    The court ruling did not say the entire voucher program was unconstitutional, nor did it say that public funds could not be used. It simply stated that the funds could not come from the pool of money specifically designated for public schools.
    Tax payer money shifted from public schools to private religious ones that think the Earth is 6,000 years old. What could go wrong?
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:15 AM
    Wondergirl
    First order of business is to get their religion right. "So if God says that dinosaurs and people lived on an earth that is only 6,000 years old, that is the correct test answer."

    There is nothing in the Bible about the Earth's age or about dinosaurs. The adults need to get their heads on straight before teaching children.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:15 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    You focused on one thing and I saw another. No harm, no foul.

    No sense. That Jindal is trying to get these poor, black kids out of failing public schools shows and WaPo finds it "appalling" that Holder would keep them there IS the concern you couldn't find.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:16 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    Weren't you previously supporting equal rights under the law?

    What's your point?
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:23 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Louisiana Sends Kids to Private Religious Schools, Test Scores Don't Go Up | Care2 Causes



    Tax payer money shifted from public schools to private religious ones that think the Earth is 6,000 years old. What could go wrong?

    From your source:

    Quote:

    White said the 2013 scores for voucher students were low because of the large influx of students from failing schools. The voucher program, officially called the Louisiana Scholarship Program, started in New Orleans in 2008 and expanded statewide just this school year. It is open to low-income students who are either entering kindergarten or who have been attending a public school graded C, D or F. This year, 61 percent of test-takers were in their first year at their voucher school.

    "Anytime you start something new, it's going to take some time to grow," White said. "Nearly two thirds of the kids taking tests in those schools had only been there six months."

    And he pointed out that the state did take seven schools off the voucher list. "After a period of time we cannot tolerate failure," he said.
    What is it you guys say about Obamacare? It ain't perfect but give it time?
  • Sep 4, 2013, 09:57 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    but give it time?
    Time there (at the religious schools) will only turn them into religious drones.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 10:26 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Time there (at the religious schools) will only turn them into religious drones.

    Why do you hate people of faith so much? You know nothing about them and your stereotypes are offensive and antagonistic. Not to mention some of the finest educational institutions in America, including a great number of our most prestigious universities Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame, etc. - were founded by Christians and/or run by the church, some still are. So keep your hate to yourself.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 10:33 AM
    NeedKarma
    I was of course referring to the posts above where the teachings will flaunt science if it doesn't line with the bible.

    To each his own opinions. I'm not surprised your immediate response is to attack whilst continuously posting your own opinions. Typical political correctness: if one doesn't embrace your view then it must be hate.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 10:48 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I was of course referring to the posts above where the teachings will flaunt science if it doesn't line with the bible.

    To each his own opinions. I'm not surprised your immediate response is to attack whilst continuously posting your own opinions. Typical political correctness: if one doesn't embrace your view then it must be hate.

    And again, right over your head...
  • Sep 4, 2013, 03:02 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    What's your point?



    The problem as I see it is that the voucher programme can be viewed as an attempt to promote equality of enrolment. Providing that type of assistance is also a type of affirmative action.

    You didn't approve of affirmative action when it come to universities reserving places for minority students, yet you appear to be arguing for the opposite in this post. Could you make your position clear as you cannot have it both ways.
  • Sep 4, 2013, 03:06 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I was of course referring to the posts above where the teachings will flaunt science if it doesn't line with the bible.

    To each his own opinions. I'm not surprised your immediate response is to attack whilst continuously posting your own opinions. Typical political correctness: if one doesn't embrace your view then it must be hate.

    Please read the signature line below
  • Sep 5, 2013, 02:07 AM
    NeedKarma
    I don't display sigs.
  • Sep 5, 2013, 04:46 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    The problem as I see it is that the voucher programme can be viewed as an attempt to promote equality of enrolment. Providing that type of assistance is also a type of affirmative action.

    You didn't approve of affirmative action when it come to universities reserving places for minority students, yet you appear to be arguing for the opposite in this post. Could you make your position clear as you cannot have it both ways.

    I don't see the point in racial quotas, I thought we were supposed to be a colorblind society. If I were a minority I'd be offended to know the only reason I got in was because of my skin color, or conversely rejected because I wasn't black.

    The point of vouchers is to get children out of bad schools. Race is not a factor to me, but if it helps poor blacks that would seem to me something to celebrate, not criticize or worse as in Holder's case, sue to stop. Seems to me it is the left wanting it both ways, not me. I say there's room for all.
  • Sep 5, 2013, 04:51 AM
    tomder55
    It's not a matter of race... it's a matter of choice .
  • Sep 5, 2013, 05:03 AM
    speechlesstx
    And again another example of the left wanting it both ways.
  • Sep 5, 2013, 05:05 AM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It's not a matter of race ...it's a matter of choice .

    I didn't say it was a matter of race I said it was a matter of affirmative action. Affirmative action is a way of providing an alternative for someone who would other wise not have the opportunity to better themselves.

    In other posts you seem opposed to affirmative action.
  • Sep 5, 2013, 05:10 AM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I don't see the point in racial quotas, I thought we were supposed to be a colorblind society. If I were a minority I'd be offended to know the only reason I got in was because of my skin color, or conversely rejected because I wasn't black.

    The point of vouchers is to get children out of bad schools. Race is not a factor to me, but if it helps poor blacks that would seem to me something to celebrate, not criticize or worse as in Holder's case, sue to stop. Seems to me it is the left wanting it both ways, not me. I say there's room for all.


    Race is not a factor in terms of my argument. See my post to Tom.

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