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-   -   Who are the job creators, part deux (cause somebody's always closing my threads) (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=596620)

  • Oct 13, 2011, 08:57 AM
    talaniman
    Maybe in the early stages of the recession things may have been underestimated, but just curious, what makes you think the stimulus DIDN'T work, and isn't still working?

    Whose fault is it that state projects weren't shovel ready? Facts is they are still moving forward with projects to get them shovel ready as we write. Another fact has been lost is that a third of the stimulus was tax cuts, and you have seen the links I posted, and those are still in effect, which means YOURS too. Secondly, money to the states helped keep vital services going, and now as it winds down, state budgets are feeling the pinch, as you see here in Texas with the scaling back of education, fire, and police.

    So what makes you think the stimulus didn't work? And don't tell me about the 8% unemployment, because its held study since some states are harder hit than others.

    No it didn't save the world, but it slowed the contraction of the economy, and unlike republicans who seem to not care at the moment, the JOBS Bill would add to that in every state. They rather pass an abortion bill in the house today than create jobs tomorrow.
  • Oct 13, 2011, 09:22 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Maybe in the early stages of the recession things may have been underestimated, but just curious, what makes you think the stimulis DIDN'T work, and isn't still working?

    Oh I don't know, all those people protesting instead of working, a stagnant economy, high unemployment, that sort of thing.

    Jesse Jackson Jr. doesn't seem to think it's working, he's calling for Obama to ignore the constitution and full government employment of 15 million unemployed Americans.

    Quote:

    Illinois Democratic Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. told The Daily Caller on Wednesday that congressional opposition to the American Jobs Act is akin to the Confederate “states in rebellion.”

    Jackson called for full government employment of the 15 million unemployed and said that Obama should “declare a national emergency” and take “extra-constitutional” action “administratively” — without the approval of Congress — to tackle unemployment.

    “I hope the president continues to exercise extraordinary constitutional means, based on the history of Congresses that have been in rebellion in the past,” Jackson said. “He’s looking administratively for ways to advance the causes of the American people, because this Congress is completely dysfunctional.”

    “President Obama tends to idealize — and rightfully so — Abraham Lincoln, who looked at states in rebellion and he made a judgment that the government of the United States, while the states are in rebellion, still had an obligation to function,” Jackson told TheDC at his Capitol Hill office on Wednesday.

    “On several occasions now, we’ve seen … the Congress is in rebellion, determined, as Abraham Lincoln said, to wreck or ruin at all costs. I believe … in the direct hiring of 15 million unemployed Americans at $40,000 a head, some more than $40,000, some less than $40,000 — that’s a $600 billion stimulus. It could be a five-year program. For another $104 billion, we bailout all of the states … for another $100 billion, we bailout all of the cities,” he said.
    First of all that's abut the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard a Congressman propose, and second of all he's horrible at math. That $600 billion he mentioned is for one year of his 5 year plan. That's I believe, $3 TRILLION.
  • Oct 13, 2011, 10:21 AM
    talaniman
    I don't know Speech, 15 million jobs at an average 40 grand a year would certainly expand the economy by a lot more than 3 trillion I think over 6 years. That's an investment that could create the demand to move the economy forward seems to me.

    Actually he talks of 800 billion the first year, and 600 the next four. That's 3.2 trillion in 5 years. That s a good investment in a 14 trillion dollar a year economy and upward of 4% growth, that would be further expanded with a restructuring of middle class debt.

    It's a lot more feasible than the 9-9-9 redistribution to the top and creating a social network drain of 75 million people in abject poverty, with no education possible that the republicans leading candidate has proposed.

    As to the math, you both were correct, just a different time phase.
  • Oct 13, 2011, 10:31 AM
    speechlesstx
    Put them to work doing what, and at the expense of who?
  • Oct 13, 2011, 10:51 AM
    tomder55
    This government handing out shovels really is 1930s thinking (and it didn't work then either) .
    9-9-9 as most of the candidates pointed out would never make it through Congress... But the concept is sound for those who have actually read the plan instead of making lame pizza and biblical jokes. '
    My biggest beef with it is that in the hands of Dems it would become 15-15-15... 20-20-20 and on and on. The thought of a tool like a national sales tax in the hands of the Dems scares me.
    I'm for a simplified ;get rid of most deductions flat income tax if I'm told I can't get rid of it all together. Let the States keep the sales taxes .
    For corporations ? I'm more in line with Santorum... get rid of Cap gains taxes... I'd even go more than that... I'd have a capital repatriation holiday for 3 years .
  • Oct 13, 2011, 11:08 AM
    talaniman
    Report: Top 15 Repatriating Cos Cut Net 21,000 Jobs After '04 Tax Break | Fox Business

    Repatriation didn't work in 2004, it just gave them more money to run overseas with, and it will be the same results we have now, Jobs leaving America, and not coming back.

    Cains plan

    999 | Herman Cain for President
  • Oct 13, 2011, 11:17 AM
    tomder55
    Yes it did... it pumped over $200 billion into the economy .

    And a 5% reduction would add even more .
    Foreign earnings tax break could add 2.9 million jobs, study says - Los Angeles Times


    I already gave my objections to 9-9-9 . However it is a complete distortion to say it is a tax transfer upward. Also as the link shows ;9-9-9 is just a transitional phase to the 'Fair Tax ' .


    Edit... looks like there is bi-partisan support for capital repatriation.
    Both parties wary of linking jobs plans - TheHill.com
  • Oct 18, 2011, 05:04 AM
    tomder55
    See the President riding a diesel-powered Canadian Bus promoting jobs for Americans... bwaaahaaahaaahaaa!! I wonder if it meets the fuel efficiency standards he imposed on American companies??
  • Oct 18, 2011, 06:52 AM
    speechlesstx
    Right, on tour again in his Canadian bus right after doing his weekly address "from a GM plant in Detroit" which is actually a green screen.



    "From a GM plant in Detroit, President Obama highlights the landmark trade agreements passed this week which will support tens of thousands of American jobs, level the playing field for American workers, and help us meet our goal of doubling our exports."

    Maybe the green screen is on his bus.
  • Oct 18, 2011, 03:01 PM
    talaniman
    Canadian bus, refitted in Tennessee, and they have one for the republicans nominee too. The same company made John nominee bus too. But that doesn't count much does it.

    LOL, and do you think all those auto workers will vote for the republican that said we should have let 'em fail?

    You guys are expecting a lot aren't you??
  • Oct 18, 2011, 04:30 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    LOL, and do you think all those auto workers will vote for the republican that said we should have let 'em fail?
    I submit that Ford is in much better footing for turning down the bailout . I already documented elsewhere that Chevy is now bailing out on America and its so called cutting edge technology will be a Chinese venture.
  • Oct 18, 2011, 04:46 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I submit that Ford is in much better footing for turning down the bailout . I already documented elsewhere that Chevy is now bailing out on America and its so called cutting edge technology will be a Chinese venture.

    Cutting edge technology and the american motor industry in the same sentence? This is what happens when you sell the farm, the machinery moves someplace else, but let them do to chinese industry what they did for american.
  • Oct 18, 2011, 05:02 PM
    talaniman
    Ford took a chance and leveraged all its assets for a loan. They were ahead of the curve, but after the others got rid of the dumbass CEO's they started to operate a lot better and did well given a second chance.

    Watch out once the infrastructure on the electric power grid is in place. Then OPEC will get screwed. Invest in popcorn, and watch China implode.
  • Oct 18, 2011, 05:34 PM
    tomder55
    What will fuel the grid ? Windmills ? You ought to listen to your Guv. We are an enegy rich country and we are having a big debate if we should run a pipeline from Canada so we can buy their oil extracted from sand ! Absurd! Drill Drill Drill and watch our economy recover. It's the difference between OWS rage and having water pistol duels with the cops like they are doing in Canada.
  • Oct 18, 2011, 06:20 PM
    talaniman
    We could start with energy efficiency, and then get rid of the junk science that makes a shut off valve for a million bucks, that has never worked.

    The Most Energy-Efficient Countries - Forbes.com

    Drill baby drill will never work either

    Oil consumption statistics - countries compared - Nationmaster

    This is interesting as far as what the rest of the world is doing more in the area of efficientcy and dependence.

    Energy in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  • Oct 19, 2011, 05:17 AM
    smoothy
    We have more untapped oil under our own soil than the entire middle east has tapped or untapped... and that's NOT considering Canada or others in our Hemisphere.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 09:57 AM
    talaniman
    We need more as we are the biggest consumer of oil, and the least energy efficient, and the messiest, as we are slow to clean up our messes, just think Valdis in Alaska, and the southern gulf coast.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 10:11 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    as we are the biggest consumer of oil
    We are the biggest consumers of energy. That would be because as of today we still have the biggest economy to fuel.
    All the more reason to have an 'all hands on deck ' approach to get as close to energy independence as possible.
    Are renewables part of that future ? Undoubtedly . However ,I think we are putting the cart before the horse typical of a command economy by restricting existing supplies while simulatneously putting our eggs in some future energy supply that is far from a given .
  • Oct 19, 2011, 10:44 AM
    talaniman
    Nations that have to import their resources have to manage them wisely, and in an efficient way. Think of how far those resources would go if we didn't waste so much of it, in traffic as well as transmission deficiency. Not just talking about home owners, and commuters here either, but businesses, and cities as well. Infrastructure investments in our larger urban areas is crucial to us narrowing the gap between energy production, and actual use.

    Improvements to an aging energy grid is key to that and I like what some cities are doing, like New York in replacing old outdated technologies with state of the art equipment, to cut down on waste and improve delivery, and reliability. They have even made some great strides with existing systems such as heating buildings with steam, a lot more efficiently than they were.

    A national effort for conservation, and improvements would go a long way towards lowering costs, and make investments even more productive. Wasting more than half the pie is a lose/lose proposition.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 11:03 AM
    smoothy
    We have more than enough oil to get us through the next 100 years, WITHOUT OPEC and by then alternatives will have matured into being practical.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 11:17 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    heating buildings with steam, a lot more efficiently than they were.
    I had an old steam boiler in my basement when I moved in . I converted from oil to natural gas and the new boiler is about a quarter the size of the previous one. That was my investment and my choice. I did it because it made sense to do so.
    I don't know which buildings you are talking about in NYC . I am not familiar with any subsidies or mandates ;or if you are talking about privately or publicly owned buildings.
    If I was a landlord however ,I would have to weigh any building improvement against diminishing returns on rent with rent controls imposed . However ;in buildings without ,I'm sure it is an economical benefit to upgrade.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 11:19 AM
    talaniman
    Not if the smarty pants CEO's keep buying stuff that don't work for a million bucks (safety valves) each, and the spill a million gallons, we won't. The loss of 11 lives is 11 to many for no reason, and if we can't learn and do better, we shouldn't be doing it.

    Look I would be singing "drill, baby, drill" too, if it was SAFE.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 11:23 AM
    tomder55
    Seems to me that is throwing the baby away with the bathwater .

    Are you saying that because a company violated known safety procedures that work ,that the whole industry should cease to exist ?

    When there was a Tylenol scare ;procedures were tightened to ensure that the product seal couldn't be tampered with... they didn't ban the use of APAP.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 12:23 PM
    talaniman
    But the oil companies didn't listen. The didn't change a thing. Just put the 20 billion into a fund, fired the CEO (well moved him), and moved to the next well. Same technology, same procedure, same flaws. But to be fair, while we are trying to make changes to the companies we do business with, other countries on the other side of the gulf are not. That's an even bigger problem.

    But that's about to change, at least on our side of the water, as private companies are working hard to revamp oil drilling technology, especially the emergency clean up phase. I think its more a matter of slowing down, and letting those technologies catch up.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 01:14 PM
    speechlesstx
    Good news, Harry Reid said the private sector is rolling along just fine, the real crisis is in government jobs. No, really, he said that.

    The facts courtesy of Ed Morrisey and the bureau of labor statistics. Public sector jobs over the last 5 years:
    http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-conten...-chart-pse.jpg

    There are 4 million fewer private sector jobs than 5 years ago, while public sector jobs have shown a net gain of 568,000 jobs in the same period.
    http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-conten...chart-govt.jpg

    As long as the Dems can demonize Republicans for opposing Obama's jobs bill how cares about facts? This fits right in with Biden's theme of late, warning the public of rapes and murders if the jobs bill isn't passed. That's right ladies and gentlemen, Republicans not only don't want you to have a job, they must be for rape and murder because they haven't passed the bill.
  • Oct 19, 2011, 03:59 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Good news, Harry Reid said the private sector is rolling along just fine, the real crisis is in government jobs. No, really, he said that.

    The facts courtesy of Ed Morrisey and the bureau of labor statistics. Public sector jobs over the last 5 years:
    http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-conten...-chart-pse.jpg

    There are 4 million fewer private sector jobs than 5 years ago, while public sector jobs have shown a net gain of 568,000 jobs in the same period.
    http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-conten...chart-govt.jpg

    As long as the Dems can demonize Republicans for opposing Obama's jobs bill how cares about facts? This fits right in with Biden's theme of late, warning the public of rapes and murders if the jobs bill isn't passed. That's right ladies and gentlemen, Republicans not only don't want you to have a job, they must be for rape and murder because they haven't passed the bill.


    And we STILL need more evidence before they will put him in mental health ward for his own protection?
  • Oct 19, 2011, 05:05 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    And we STILL need more evidence before they will put him in mental health ward for his own protection?

    Looks like you have what we call a two speed economy over there.

    Strange statistics though when it is thought that the democrats mean big government
  • Oct 19, 2011, 07:34 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Looks like you have what we call a two speed economy over there.

    Strange statistics though when it is though that the democrats mean big government

    Yes... like a Unimog... several reverse gears.

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