Or is it a last gasp ? Governor Walker and Chris Christie among others have taken bold controversial steps to fix a huge public problem . Now there isn't an American paying attention who doesn't see the problem. We may disagree on the remedies ;but now at least we know what's at stake.

Eventually this will filter up to the national government . Congressman Devin Nunes of California has a bill on the table for public disclosure of all unfunded liabilities due to public employee pension .I hear the numbers totalled is staggering .

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“Public employee pensions represent trillions of debt carried by the American taxpayer. Unfortunately, this debt is masked by accounting practices that would never be tolerated in the private sector. It’s time to open up the books. Once we enact this bill, retirees, government workers, policy makers, and most importantly the people who are paying the bills, can make up their own minds about the soundness of public pensions.”

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Congressman Devin Nunes - California 21st District :: Press Office

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Originally Posted by tomder55

or is it a last gasp ? Now there isn't an American paying attention who doesn't see the problem. We may disagree on the remedies ;but now at least we know what's at stake.

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Hello again, tom:

Couple things.

I agree with you. Americans who pay attention don't disagree about the problem. It's that we don't live within our means. Where we DISAGREE is who's ox is going to get gored to pay for it. That battle ain't over yet.

Yesterday on one of the talk shows, when asked about cuts in defense, Mitch McConnell, said he'd consider those cuts when we're not involved in two wars. That position presumes that every military program is crucial to our winning these wars... That's a non-starter...

As long as you press the middle class and the poor to pay for our recovery, while giving the military and the rich a pass, it AIN'T going to happen.

excon

Neither I, nor the military dispute that cuts in their budget should be on the table. If anything the whole government should study how the military has gone about cutting it's budget and size. I'm speaking especially about Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC).

Governor Walker has a major victory here that is rippling across the country. This week Idaho ended tenure . In Iowa they are debating limits on the bargaining power of the unions .Same thing is happening in Ohio where Gov. Kasich wants to limit their bargaining ability... and we already know that Mitch Daniels has done it by executive order.

Referring to the demonstrators who occupied the State Capitol Building... at least in Cairo ,the demonstrators came back and cleaned up after themselves.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Governor Walker has a major victory here that is rippling across the country.

Referring to the demonstrators who occupied the State Capitol Building ......at least in Cairo ,the demonstrators came back and cleaned up after themselves.

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Hello again, tom:

Couple things..

So too, the reaction to Walker is rippling across the country... Look. You guys might win - or lose as the case may be. Personally, I don't think reverting back to the 19th Century is a win.

When I demonstrated against the war in Vietnam, they called me dirty too. Didn't change anything... The dirty masses STOPPED the war, and the dirty masses will stop this bit of facism too. Besides, last time I read the Constitution, it didn't say anything about cleaning up after yourselves. That's WHY we hire union janitors and pay them well. They probably don't HAVE janitors in Cairo.

excon

Yeah well maybe they can dip into their union dues to repair the damage.

Ooooh... we're going to get rid of public pensions on a national level?

Does that mean that CONGRESS will get rid of THEIR medical programs and LIFETIME benefits?

I'd LOVE to see that. I'll sacrifice union bargaining to see CONGRESS have to live with the same rules as the rest of us... and the same budget restrictions.

Scott Fitzgerald admitted last night that all this union busting and tax breaking and the whole right wing movement to take away worker rights, is about destroy the democratic base for the 2012 election. Nobody has even addressed the changing of the voter rules in the beltway states, targeting minorities and students. But repubs have been doing it for the last 30 years, and they haven't changed.

Well they say every dog has its day, so today the Walker gang has had their's, but I doubt they have many more left.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Ooooh....we're going to get rid of public pensions on a national level?

Does that mean that CONGRESS will get rid of THEIR medical programs and LIFETIME benefits?

I'd LOVE to see that. I'll sacrifice union bargaining to see CONGRESS have to live with the same rules as the rest of us....and the same budget restrictions.

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Yeah, the Poor poor public workers... they will have to fund their own 401Ks like the rest of us do... Lets hold a pitty party for them, what say?

Public workers have job security NOBODY else has... they don't need and shouldn't have a union. Like every other employer... you can go someplace else if the offerings aren't good enough. The democrats Stimulous created millions of jobs that are going unfilled after all.

And yeah... lets Make Congress and the Senate have to live by the same rules the rest of us do too. Next.

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QUOTE by smoothy;
Yeah, the Poor poor public workers... they will have to fund their own 401Ks like the rest of us do... Lets hold a pity party for them, what say?

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They already fund their own retirements. Walker wants a bigger contribution and they have that. And its not the governments money nor the taxpayers money. It's the workers money deducted from their paycheck.

If the poor trusting workers had know that the government would renege on their contract, they probably would have taken the money. Most big businesses, and the government realize a bigger saving when they offer pension benefits, and health insurance (paid through deductions like the rest of us). Why, because as a group they get a better price than an individual. So would you when you buy health insurance in bulk, you would save money every month too. You chose not to, so don't cry about the choice of others, when you have the same option, and opportunity also.

Smoothy you are a smart guy and I respect you, but don't let your feelings blind you to the facts.

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Public workers have job security NOBODY else has... they don't need and shouldn't have a union. Like every other employer... you can go someplace else if the offerings aren't good enough. The democrats Stimulus created millions of jobs that are going unfilled after all.

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That's not true at all. They can be hired, fired, and laid off the same as you, especially when the state has a financial emergency, and given where the state has been spending its money, they caused the emergency just like the banks.

As far as jobs go, federal government is limited in creating jobs, we all know that, but the fat cats and bankers that got tax cuts and bail outs ain't doing SQUAT, with tax payer money!!

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And yeah... lets Make Congress and the Senate have to live by the same rules the rest of us do too. Next.

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Now we agree, NEXT!!

Tal:

Greenie.

Xoxox
Synn

Fed union employees lost their collective bargaining rights in 1978 when Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress stripped them.
The silence from the left was deafening .

Title VII of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978.

1.Federal employees are denied by statute the right to strike.

2.The right of federal employees to picket is limited to informational picketing only. It is an unfair labor practice for a labor organization to picket a federal agency in a labor-management dispute if such picketing interferes with an agency's operations.

3.The scope of mandatory collective bargaining for federal employees is limited to personnel employment practices only. Basic working conditions such as wages, hours of work, and employee benefits are instead subject to statutory provisions.

4.Union and agency contract provisions as well as all other forms of compulsory union support are prohibited in the federal civil service.

5.Recognition of labor organizations as exclusive employee representatives occurs only by a majority vote of employees through a secret-ballot election.

http://www.opm.gov/biographyofanideal/PU_CSreform.htm

We were talking about ALL public employees.

Which means that POLITICIANS should be stripped of pensions and benefits as well.

Betcha they don't like THAT idea as much.

I thought this was about MONEY--I mean, isn't that what Walker and his cronies were screaming about, how BROKE they are?

Yet Walker's OTHER proposals will SPEND a lot more money--especially his "force people to stay in prison for their whole sentence" proposal. Betcha he ain't THAT broke, and that policy gets pushed through too.

The only thing this whole thing has shown me is that politicians ARE businessmen, and they'll do what it takes to line their own pockets---and screw what the people actually want or need.

The South should have won. We probably wouldn't be in as big a mess if we hadn't given the federal government so damned much power then.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

They already fund their own retirements. Walker wants a bigger contribution and they have that. And its not the governments money nor the taxpayers money. its the workers money deducted from their paycheck.

If the poor trusting workers had know that the government would renege on their contract, they probably would have taken the money. Most big businesses, and the government realize a bigger saving when they offer pension benefits, and health insurance (paid thru deductions like the rest of us). Why, because as a group they get a better price than an individual. So would you when you buy health insurance in bulk, you would save money every month too. You chose not to, so don't cry about the choice of others, when you have the same option, and opportunity also.

Smoothy you are a smart guy and I respect you, but don't let your feelings blind you to the facts.

Thats not true at all. They can be hired, fired, and laid off the same as you, especially when the state has a financial emergency, and given where the state has been spending its money, they caused the emergency just like the banks.

As far as jobs go, federal government is limited in creating jobs, we all know that, but the fat cats and bankers that got tax cuts and bail outs ain't doing SQUAT, with tax payer money!!!!


Now we agree, NEXT!!!

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Union jobs don't work like that... You forget you are talking to someone that's been in a really well known union for approaching 2 decades, I've spoken with and shook hands with Jimmy Hoffa Jr.. There is no union that lets the bean counters hire and fire like in the non-union private sector. And the stronger and all encompassing the Union the worse it is. And I have seen what it takes to fire someone. Its amazingly difficult.

Fat cats and Bankers are earning money with their jobs... unlike public sector employees who make no money... they only spend our tax dollars.

I was in a union too, still am for the last 40 years, and know the rules very well, and know what negotiating is about on both sides. To say any worker doesn't earn his pay is a bit eroneus, and they can get fired if they screw up too bad.

Having a union job, such as steward, griever, or such doesn't pay as much as a full time elect union president for sure, but that's the structure, and a union job has nothing to do with the company the member works at conducts its business, but the due negotiate work rules and proceedures.

Ask any coal miner, or iron worker how important the unions are, and then compare the ones that don't have them, and see which one has the higher death toll because of taking short cuts, or unsafe practices. Ask a fire fighter, or a cop how important his union is, ask a teacher, or a janitor, how important a union is.

If you don't like them, go somewhere else then, where there is no union. But don't knock those of us who WANT to pay our dues, and get the benefits they provide. Okay no more collective bargaining in Wisconsin, we can only wait and see why the people there fought so hard for a union in the first place, and won, and now they will do it again, no doubt! Mark my words, they will be back stronger than ever when they see how they were lied to about this so called emergency, that was all about a power grab for 2012.

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Fat cats and Bankers are earning money with their jobs... unlike public sector employees who make no money... they only spend our tax dollars.

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They earn money for themselves and if you didn't need those public sector workers why are you paying them? And last I looked, they pay taxes and provide a public service. They don't spend tax dollars, elected officials do!

Thought you knew that. Show me a worker who spends your dollars, and I will show you that your vote gave him the job. Fire'em then, and where will you send your kids to learn their ABC's? Or shovel your snow, or pick up your garbage??

Come on now!!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Fed union employees lost their collective bargaining rights in 1978 when Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress stripped them.
The silence from the left was deafening .

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Has nothing to do with the states.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I was in a union too, still am for the last 40 years, and know the rules very well, and know what negotiating is about on both sides. To say any worker doesn't earn his pay is a bit eroneus, and they can get fired if they screw up too bad.

Having a union job, such as steward, griever, or such doesn't pay as much as a full time elect union president for sure, but thats the structure, and a union job has nothing to do with the company the member works at conducts its business, but the due negotiate work rules and proceedures.

Ask any coal miner, or iron worker how important the unions are, and then compare the ones that don't have them, and see which one has the higher death toll because of taking short cuts, or unsafe practices. Ask a fire fighter, or a cop how important his union is, ask a teacher, or a janitor, how important a union is.

If you don't like them, go somewhere else then, where there is no union. But don't knock those of us who WANT to pay our dues, and get the benefits they provide. Okay no more collective bargaining in Wisconsin, we can only wait and see why the people there fought so hard for a union in the first place, and won, and now they will do it again, no doubt! Mark my words, they will be back stronger than ever when they see how they were lied to about this so called emergency, that was all about a power grab for 2012.


They earn money for themselves and if you didn't need those public sector workers why are you paying them?? And last I looked, they pay taxes and provide a public service. They don't spend tax dollars, elected officials do!

Thought you knew that. Show me a worker who spends your dollars, and I will show you that your vote gave him the job. Fire'em then, and where will you send your kids to learn their ABC's? Or shovel your snow, or pick up your garbage???

Come on now!!!

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Bankers earn money... that why you get interest on the money you have there. How much do you get paid every year from the Public servants?

You need SOME public sector jobs... you don't NEED as many. And they certainly don't NEED union representation. THey will work like the private sector... if the job isn't good enough on its merits to attract people, then you do away with the job or sweeten the pot a little. You don't lavish excessive benefits on them, and then make them next to impossible to fire... you know, like teachers... when there are people willing to take the job for less. Ever wonder why California, New York, Illinois and Ohio as will as Wisconsin and Michigan are in the trouble they are in now? Making promisses and lavishing excessive benefits they knew they couldn't pay for is reason Number 1.

I don't expect to get paid by a public servant, picking up my garbage is enough.

As for the states you mention, that's how republicans are, create an emergency, to justify and take all the money jobs and rights you can. I understand, and for the next two years so be it. But they weren't the only states with budget decisions to make. The other states notably Minnesota, raised corporate taxes and cut their budgets, because it was a shared sacrifice by all, not an opportunity to rape pillage and plunder the constituents, or the good of the few to make BHO a one term president.

Yep that's the entire goal, in every state you named where the repubs were elected by the KOCH Bros, and Karl Rove, and its about power and money. They don't give a rats patoot about me, you, or anyone else except their money, and their power.

You ordinary everyday middle class repubs better wake up, because your as much affected as the rest of us. Greed and ambition don't care what party you are. Just ask your local chamber of commerce what its all about. One master, many slaves.

Thought you knew that too.

Battlefield315: Teachers Unions explained

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't expect to get paid by a public servant, picking up my garbage is enough.

As for the states you mention, thats how republicans are, create an emergency, to justify and take all the money jobs and rights you can. I understand, and for the next two years so be it. But they weren't the only states with budget decisions to make. the other states notably Minnesota, raised corporate taxes and cut their budgets, because it was a shared sacrifice by all, not an opportunity to rape pillage and plunder the constituents, or the good of the few to make BHO a one term president.

Yep thats the entire goal, in every state you named where the repubs were elected by the KOCH Bros, and Karl Rove, and its about power and money. They don't give a rats patoot about me, you, or anyone else except their money, and their power.

You ordinary everyday middle class repubs better wake up, because your as much affected as the rest of us. Greed and ambition don't care what party you are. just ask your local chamber of commerce what its all about. One master, many slaves.

Thought you knew that too.

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Republicans haven't been a majority in many of those states in DECADES. THe emergency was created by democrats giving the Unions everything they wanted in exchange for money the unions extorted out of its members... many of whom are NOT Democrats.

And I know far more republican union members than democrat union members... so its no surprise how ticked off they are about their hard earned money going exclusively to democrats for a quid pro quo.

Look at ACORN... look at NPR. Anything connected with democrats is corrupt to its core.

That's the problem my friend, so are the republicans.

The Dems left because they were out numbered.

I completely agree. Without UNIONS there would be no middle class. Wake up people!

What do you do for a living?

What's your point in asking this irrelevant question ?

Deleted duplicate post

I'll bite Tom what is your point?

This story has not gone away. As Ex predicted ,it's a war ,and the Senate passing the laws was just a battle in the war.

The war has shifted to the recall effort.

The recall process in Wi. Is pretty simple... get enough petitition signatures and force a new election .There are 16 such petition drives ongoing . 8 for each side. The Republicans are targeting (yeah I said it )8 Dems for their 'fleebagging' . The Dems have 8 Republicans in their sights (yeah I said it) for their vote.

Except it looks like the national Republicans have gone ADD while the Democrats still see Wisconsin as the front line.

The Democratic Governors Association, and MoveOn.org have begun a multimillion-dollar TV campaign to support the recall effort. The national Republicans only have the Republican State Leadership Committee (RSLC) paying attention.

What's at stake ? Recall elections can beging in the Spring. If the Dems manage to get a majority in the Senate ,it could have a big impact on redistricting ,slated to begin in the summer.

But even more it will ripple across the country where there are many states facing the terrible fiscal options that runaway state workers contracts have caused.

Sounds good Tom, but far from truth. We were all humming along enjoying the fruits of our labor, happy as larks until Wall Street banks screwed up the money, all over the freaking world, and now we struggle to regroup. Putting the blame on a sector of the population is just missing the facts, and the whole point.

We got robbed, and to say the middle class did it is crazy, to say unions are to blame is crazy. I mean just look at who got bailed out, and who didn't.

Just look at who has to balance the books, and who doesn't. That's right, poor people, and struggling public sector workers have been made the sacrificial cow, and the ones who are the "job creators" and movers and shakers are rewarded even more.

Not only when this robbery was perpetrated, but even now, as tax breaks on the fed level, and tax breaks on the state level have made shared sacrifice a joke, right in front of our faces.

This ain't about public workers, never was, its always been about corporate power, and control, starting with the economy, after jobs are shipped overseas, and the money allowed to buy lawmakers, so they can have new laws that restrict the flow of money through the system, and the grab of total control over the population. That's what this is about, and that's what the republicans are about.

But you middle class and working stiff republicans will be on the wrong end of the money as we Dem's and independents will be so see you in the bread line, and we can exchange stories about how well that worked out for us.

Elections coming up, scheduled, and non scheduled, so we might get some cake out of this.

The funny thing to me is if republicans and democrats spent as much time getting the bad guys who stole the money that started this in the first place, we wouldn't have to fight each other for the crumbs.

This public sector unfunded mandates problem was brewing well before 2008 .

Yes it was, and who was creating the economic bubbles that burst on us all? Wisconsin is but a focal point for the media, its global, as the middle east and Europe are in the same boat.

This is what you soak the rich rhetoric brings
Reports: Caterpillar Hints At Leaving Illinois Over High Taxes

The fact that prosperity masked a system that was inevidably going to collapse doesn't change the fact that state workers picking private workers pockets is not a sound model for success.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

This story has not gone away. As Ex predicted ,it's a war ,and the Sentate passing the laws was just a battle in the war.

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Hello again, tom:

Not only has it not gone away, what happened in Wisconsin is the spark that has re-ignited a long dead debate about what government actually is supposed to do... Steve articulated the difference's perfectly,

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Since when was it someone else's job in a free country to distribute wealth? If the left would stop their social engineering games and get out of they way, this country would thrive again.

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Of course, since the beginning, the government's JOB was to redistribute the wealth. In fact, that's its ONLY job. It collects taxes from some to pay for services for others. Some of those services may be an Army to protect everybody, a road for everybody to drive on, a police force to protect peoples lives, and, of course, the ability to make RULES, like everybody should drive on the right side of the road, and workers shouldn't be forced to labor in a locked room, in a building that's a fire trap.

Both you and steve say that SOME of that "redistribution" of wealth is just fine, although you'll NEVER call it "redistribution". In fact, I have no idea what you call it... But, the fact that you call it something OTHER than what it is, IS the problem.

You've been getting away with it since Ronny Raygun. I guess that caused you start believing your own schtick... That's why you're SOOO surprised at the response you've gotten in Wisconsin. What you've done is awakened a sleeping giant, and it's going to come back to bite you. This op-ed in the NY Times says everything that needs to be said.

excon

Let's see who gets the best of the recalls. Down in liberal bastion Miami Fla ,Mayor Carlos Alvarez was ousted with a recall, by voters angry over a property tax rate increase and salary raises for county employees .

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Some of those services may be an Army to protect everybody, a road for everybody to drive on, a police force to prevent crime, and the ability to make RULES like everybody should drive on the right side of the road, and workers shouldn't be forced to labor in a locked in a room in a building that's a fire trap.

Both you and steve say that SOME of that "redistribution" of wealth is just fine, although you'll NEVER call it "redistribution".

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That's right I will never call those legitimate actions of government redistribution because it isn't. You said it yourself.. those are shared services .

Tell me where elected officials ,collecting union dues for the unions, and then creating law that allows unions to pick the pockets of non-union members, forcing them to pay for benefits that the non-union workers do not enjoy in the work place fall under legitimate roles of government ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

That's right I will never call those legitimate actions of government redistribution because it aint.

Tell me where elected officials ,collecting union dues for the unions, and then creating law that allows unions to pick the pockets of non-union members, forcing them to pay for benefits that the non-union workers do not enjoy in the work place fall under legitimate roles of government ?

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Hello again, tom:

I'll be happy to, after you tell me WHY the most profitable industry in the history of the world, the oil industry, should be the recipient of $$$ BILLIONS of MY REDISTRIBUTED wealth.

As long as you call THAT a legitimate action of government, but protecting workers isn't, you're going to fail. Here's what you miss. There's a consensus in the country that spending needs to be curtailed... Most everybody is willing to SHARE in the sacrifice necessary to get the country back on track... ;)

Of course, that's NO SO is it? You don't want EVERYBODY to sacrifice, you want the POOR and the middle class to do it... That, my friend, ain't going to happen.

excon

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This op-ed in the NY Times says everything that needs to be said

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.

Yeah Wisconsin was the first to introduce public employee bargaining, 52 years ago, and it is the first to admit that it cannot be sustained.

The author is funny. He says that Republicans are trying to "reverse civic traditions that for more than a century have been among the most celebrated achievements" . Then says that the state instituted them in 1959 . You do the math .

Besides ;history has shown that Joe McCarthy was right.

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I'll be happy to, after you tell me WHY the most profitable industry in the history of the world, the oil industry, should be the recipient of $$$ BILLIONS of MY REDISTRIBUTED wealth.

As long as you call THAT a legitimate action of government,.

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I don't . So the misnomer 'crony' "capitalism" is just another name for state socialism.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't . So the misnomer 'crony' "capitalism" is just another name for state socialism.

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Hello again, tom:

Cool. When I hear you clamoring for THAT subsidy to be repealed, I'll listen to your gripes about the unions.

excon

You haven't seem me write it ?

Well let me refresh your memory:

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that is why I favor the use of bankruptsy instead of bailouts . That is why I favor the limitted use of regulations which has an unintended consequence of industry consolidation . That is why I oppose this use of corporate /government cooperatives that are being set up by the current group of leaders which more resembles merchantilism than capitalism.

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https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ce-534598.html

On the same posting #29

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...Corporations likewise should not be granted through the legal structure special favors. The individual farmer should play on the same level field as ADM .

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I'm sure with more time I could find other such examples .

OK one more because you posted the OP about 'Progressive ' Insurance

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Couldn't figure out what this was about. What a surprise that business people who prosper in a crony business /government environment wouid be 'progressive' (aka national/state socialists)!!

Jeff Immelt at GE is one also...

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I am against anyone who stops the free circulation of every dollar, hoarders are not welcome. Ego tripping should be against the law.

The few should never tell the many what's good for 'em. That's modern day slavery!!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

you haven't seem me write it ?

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Hello again, tom:

I've seen you write it. I haven't seen you clamor for it. This thread is clamoring.

excon