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  • Apr 8, 2010, 06:30 AM
    NeedKarma
    My mother had hers 8 days later.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 06:35 AM
    tomder55

    See... you are a tea partier after all! But maybe not .

    Because tea partiers also see their neighbor who gamed the system getting a mortgage deal by the government that their taxes are paying for... when they sacrificed and lived in cheap rentals to build up equity and then purchased a home within their means.

    None of that would've happened if there weren't a politician involved trying to level the playing field or being compassionate with other people's money .

    In fact this whole health care thingy is an attempt at that compassion with other people's money that our pols are so good at.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 06:40 AM
    excon

    Hello again:

    Dudes...

    In response to the right wing screed that the government is going to ration health care, I've argued here many times, that insurance companies ALREADY ration care. I've pointed out that our system of paid for health care itself, rations care to those who can afford it. Plus, what I haven't mentioned, is that your own doctor, by himself and WITHOUT any government intervention, rations your medical care.

    Health care ALL over the world IS rationed. That's just so. There are MORE people needing care, than there are people providing it. It ain't no different here. Get over it. THIS law is an attempt to serve MORE people with limited care. Does that mean, that even here, in this great country of ours, that if you need a knee replaced, you might have to wait longer than you'd like, so we can take care of the people who need emergency care? I think it does.

    I'm fine with that.

    excon
  • Apr 8, 2010, 07:09 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    My mother had hers 8 days later.

    Good for her, NK, but does anything satisfy you as a factual presentation on Canadian health care? The link I furnished showing a 293 day wait time for a knee replacement at the Kingston General Hospital came straight from your government.

    P.S. You should find it disturbing just knowing your government has to set up a website for Canadian citizens to check on wait times.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 07:11 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    The link I furnished showing a 293 day wait time for a knee replacement at the Kingston General Hospital .

    No it doesn't. It doesn't show that at all. Do you even visit the pages you link to??
  • Apr 8, 2010, 07:41 AM
    speechlesstx
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    No it doesn't. It doesn't show that at all. Do you even visit the pages you link to????

    I'm not that stupid, NK, the page must have expired or something. Here's the pdf attached. I'm still amazed you don't find it disturbing that your government has to even list wait times.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 07:52 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again:

    Dudes....

    In response to the right wing screed that the government is going to ration health care, I've argued here many times, that insurance companies ALREADY ration care. I've pointed out that our system of paid for health care itself, rations care to those who can afford it. Plus, what I haven't mentioned, is that your own doctor, by himself and WITHOUT any government intervention, rations your medical care.

    Health care ALL over the world IS rationed. That's just so. There are MORE people needing care, than there are people providing it. It ain't no different here. Get over it. THIS law is an attempt to serve MORE people with limited care. Does that mean, that even here, in this great country of ours, that if you need a knee replaced, you might have to wait longer than you'd like, so we can take care of the people who need emergency care? I think it does.

    I'm fine with that.

    excon

    The rationing, because there is finite resources that can't meet the demand, in Obamacare - is coming from the government. You're a vet - I've worked in the VA system. The VA hospital is, more often than not, not local but hour[s] away depending on what part of the country your in. Medication formularies are limited. You should know all this.

    If we went to a mandatory catastrophic coverage only system, and increase flex accounts, not limit them, and increase HSAs for everything else - each individual rations his own healthcare dollars as they see fit - without a huge money sucking government or private insurance company in the mix.

    I thought you were a libertarian?

    We would still have health departments, medicaid for the truly needy.

    Speaking of rationing : do the math:

    Limited physician and nurse supply, dwindling birthrates and a lesser percent of the population that is productive [ about40% or more do not pay any federal income tax ]

    Plus

    Increasing demand: baby boomers now medicare age, 30- 50 million more people now on government dependency program. Illegals?

    Does not equal lower costs or even stable costs but RATIONING AND WAITING LISTS BY THE GOVERNMENT.



    G&P
  • Apr 9, 2010, 12:41 PM
    smoothy

    I wonder if Robert Gibbs is dumb enough to believe the propaganda he is expected to regurgitate in front of reporters... or if he's just a liar who will say anything he's told to say by his party.
  • Apr 9, 2010, 02:53 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    limited physician and nurse supply, dwindling birthrates and a lesser percent of the population that is productive [ about40% or more do not pay any federal income tax ]

    Just reported on Wednesday, almost half of US households pay no federal income tax.

    Quote:

    The result is a tax system that exempts almost half the country from paying for programs that benefit everyone, including national defense, public safety, infrastructure and education. It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners -- households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 -- paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

    The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government sends them a payment.

    "We have 50 percent of people who are getting something for nothing," said Curtis Dubay, senior tax policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation.
    I must be doing something wrong, I'm still paying my own way.
  • Apr 9, 2010, 03:56 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    almost half of US households pay no federal income tax.

    Hello again, Steve:

    Yeah. The middle class is disappearing. You don't pay any taxes when the factory you used to work for closed down, and now you're flipping burgers for Wendy's.

    excon
  • Apr 16, 2010, 04:43 AM
    Fr_Chuck

    Well this affordable health care is going to break me.

    Just got our company insurance statement for this coming year, they are raising the rates at least 50 percent, soif you were paying 400 a month, now you will be paying 600 a month. A lot of workers don't know how they will be able to keep their insurance.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 09:28 AM
    smoothy

    That's the price of having to pay for all the other people that will get it for free.

    Democrats believe that is fair somehow.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 09:35 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Thats the price of having to pay for all the other people that will get it for free. Democrats believe that is fair somehow.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    As we've discussed, your fire department is a perfect example of socialism at work. It just so happens to be socialism you LIKE, though. Tell me, if your town has to raise taxes to pay for the fire department, do you get pissed at the people who had their fires put out for FREE?

    excon
  • Apr 16, 2010, 09:53 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    As we've discussed, your fire department is a perfect example of socialism at work. It just so happens to be socialism you LIKE, though. Tell me, if your town has to raise taxes to pay for the fire department, do you get pissed at the people who had their fires put out for FREE?

    excon

    Make the 48% of the Anerican public that pay absolutely NO federal taxes NOW pay them and we might have a discussion here.

    Why should the lazy 48% gert something FREE while the 52% that actually pay taxes have to pay everything. Except fopr Congress that exempts themselves... and Hollywood who doesn't do their share even if THEY are grossly overpaid.

    And exactly since when do Fire Departments get paid by the Federal Government.

    95% of the fire departments where I have ever lived get no pay at all... or any tax reimbursement at all. They are volunteer, and raise their own money for equipment.

    If you like Socialism so damn much... hand over ALL of your money to the government, you and all the other liberals... or is it like typical iberals... they are incredibly generous with everyone ELSE'S money... but not their own.

    I suppose YOU don't contribute anything on Boot drives the Fire Depts hold... do you? And do you even KNOW a fireman... much less several?
  • Apr 16, 2010, 10:03 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    And exactly since when do Fire Departments get paid by the Federal Government. Why should the lazy 48% gert something FREE while the 52% that actualy pay taxes have to pay everything.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    As I explained earlier, socialism is an IDEA. It can be practiced on a national level, or on a local level, exactly like your fire department. It has nothing to do with the federal government. It has to do with pooling risk. You should know what these terms you bandy about mean.

    So, I gather you DO get pissed at the lazy people who let their city or town put out their fires for them - for FREE. I understand..

    excon
  • Apr 16, 2010, 10:16 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    As I explained earlier, socialism is an IDEA. It can be practiced on a national level, or on a local level, exactly like your fire department. It has nothing to do with the federal government. It has to do with pooling risk. You should know what these terms you bandy about mean.

    So, I gather you DO get pissed at the lazy people who let their city or town put out their fires for them - for FREE. I understand..

    excon

    How is a fire department socialist? I get pissed at the Lazy people who pay no taxes... contribute little to the community... and yet suck it dry begging for handouts they think they are owed.

    Lazy people don't join the fire department, its too much like real work, which it is, and they are too special to work for wages on par with their education, experience, and ability level... they rarely make good neighbors, cause MOST of the crime the police have to deal with... and always cause our taxes to be far higher then they should be.

    Most firemen in the country do not draw a paycheck from the fire dept... they all have other jobs. Its usually in the larger cities where too many lazy people tend to congregate to have enough volunteers that you find paid firemen.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 10:24 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    As I explained earlier, socialism is an IDEA. It can be practiced on a national level, or on a local level, exactly like your fire department. It has nothing to do with the federal government. It has to do with pooling risk. You should know what these terms you bandy about mean.

    So, I gather you DO get pissed at the lazy people who let their city or town put out their fires for them - for FREE. I understand..

    excon

    We don't have any of those. The municipal Fire Department is paid from City property taxes.

    Socialism is about the ownership and control of the means of production of goods, not the provision of a service.
    Socialism | Define Socialism at Dictionary.com
  • Apr 16, 2010, 01:42 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    Socialism is about the ownership and control of the means of production of goods, not the provision of a service.

    Hello again, Cats:

    Then you guys are going to have to stop calling the health care law socialized medicine, cause that's a service. The service the fire department produces is putting out fires. The means of production of that service, are wholly owned by the government. That's socialism too, like it or not.

    Smoothy won't answer my question. Maybe you will. Does it piss you off that you pay for the service that saves your neighbors house, and he doesn't pay any more than you do? Smoothy doesn't see the connection to the recently passed health care law? I'll bet you do.

    excon
  • Apr 16, 2010, 01:46 PM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Cats:

    Then you guys are going to have to stop calling the health care law socialized medicine, cause that's a service. The service the fire department produces is putting out fires. The means of production of that service, are wholly owned by the government. That's socialism too, like it or not.

    Smoothy won't answer my question. Maybe you will. Does it piss you off that you pay for the service that saves your neighbors house, and he doesn't pay any more than you do? Smoothy doesn't see the connection to the recently passed health care law? I'll bet you do.

    excon

    The recently enacted bill deals with Insurance coverage, a product.

    It doesn't bother me a bit if they put my neighbor's house out. They keep it from spreading to my house and prevent me from smelling burnt house for months.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 02:00 PM
    cdad

    Food for thought on firefighter issues.

    Ref:

    An Onymous Lefty: Fire Department Stands On Principle, leaves house of non-member to burn down
  • Apr 16, 2010, 03:33 PM
    smoothy

    Government run and mandated health care IS socialized medicine.

    Just like any other sector of the economy that can be and should be privately and competitively run by either private or publicly owned corporations or individuals.

    Look at Cuba...

    Look at the old East Germany...

    Look at the old Soviet Union...

    Look at any other commie loving country with a domineering and overbearing government.

    Name one Government run and owned enterprise that consumes NO tax dollars... and turns a profit purely based on the quality of services it offers without enjoying a government mandated monopoly status? And that doesn't force one group to buy its own services as well as pay for those of another who aren't required to pay their fair share.


    And Robin Hood was not an upstanding citizen, robbery is robbery.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 05:27 PM
    excon

    Hello again, smoothy:

    So, you ARE pissed off at your lazy neighbor who let's YOU pay for his house NOT burning down. I understand.

    excon
  • Apr 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post


    And Robin Hood was not an upstanding citizen, robbery is robbery.

    Yes and the spirit of Robin Hood lives on in capitalist government. Haven't you seen it robbing the rich through taxation and giving to the poor. When the people were poor they loved the idea but as soon as they got some money...
  • Apr 16, 2010, 09:28 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    yes and the spirit of Robin Hood lives on in capitalist government. Haven't you seen it robbing the rich through taxation and giving to the poor. When the people were poor they loved the idea but as soon as they got some money..................

    Yeah... exactly the problem with so many people today. Why work for it if you can demand to get it free...
  • Apr 16, 2010, 09:30 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    So, you ARE pissed off at your lazy neighbor who let's YOU pay for his house NOT burning down. I understand.

    excon

    I don't have any lazy neighbors... they couldn't afford my neighborhood if they were. And any apartments are clear across town. That's where the bums live and most of our local crime occurs.

    One of THE reasons I picked to live where I did. Far too few renters really give a hoot about respect for other peoples property... and not just their landlords property. And you aren't renting a house anywhere near me for less than $2,800 a month. And we have strict ordinances about who and how many unrelated people can share a property. And they ARE strictly enforced.
  • Apr 16, 2010, 10:08 PM
    excon

    Hello again, smoothy:

    I've TRIED to engage you in a discussion. You don't want to discuss. You want to spout slogans. I can't argue with a billboard. There's no satisfaction in that. I know you don't understand what I'm talking about. S'fine with me. Later.

    excon
  • Apr 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
    speechlesstx

    Gee, and I thought all that crap called Obamacare was supposed to fix this:

    Senate Bill Sets a Plan to Regulate Premiums

    Quote:

    Fearing that health insurance premiums may shoot up in the next few years, Senate Democrats laid a foundation on Tuesday for federal regulation of rates, four weeks after President Obama signed a law intended to rein in soaring health costs.
    Maybe that will help get them that Obamacare bounce they've been expecting.
  • Apr 21, 2010, 03:13 PM
    tomder55

    Yes ,weren't we told premiums would go down under Obamacare ? I guess it's our fault as we fought complete takeover of a major percentage of the national economy .Silly us ;if only we had succumbed to the will of the collective.
  • Apr 21, 2010, 03:55 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    yes ,weren't we told premiums would go down under Obamacare ? I guess it's our fault as we fought complete takeover of a a major percentage of the national economy .Silly us ;if only we had succumbed to the will of the collective.

    Haven't you guys learned the one thing that is constant about insurance, premiums never go down? And here I was believing you are an advanced society
  • Apr 21, 2010, 05:07 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    haven't you guys learned the one thing that is constant about insurance, premiums never go down? and here I was believing you are an advanced society

    And another is NO government agencyever has ANY incentive to be efficient, their budgets would be reduced if that were true... and they NEVER want that to happen. They ALL or a 100% drain on taxpayers... leeches sucking the money out of the productive members of society to benefit themselves and the lazy members of the population.
  • Apr 21, 2010, 05:43 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    leeches sucking the money out of the productive members of society to benifit themselves and the lazy members of the population.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    So, it DOES piss you off that your lazy neighbors get their fire put out for free, while YOU'RE paying for it. I knew it.

    excon
  • Apr 22, 2010, 04:48 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    So, it DOES piss you off that your lazy neighbors get their fire put out for free, while YOU'RE paying for it. I knew it.

    excon

    You're living in a dream world.

    Most fire departments in the country AREN'T paid for by tax dollars. They aren't where I live either. MY fire department is a volunteer dept.

    MY tax dollars ARE however going to pay for illegals, and their demon spawn who occupy and consume 19% of our school budget EVERY year (actual numbers from MY counties school budget).

    And since illegals can't have taxpayer ID's... they can't be paying taxes... and even if they were, 47% of the population pays NO income tax now... leaving 53% to pay for their lazy butts.
  • Apr 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
    speechlesstx

    Ex, this ain't about fire departments you master of misdirection. I would say we were sold a bill of goods but it was rammed through against the will of the people under various guises, one of which was reducing premiums. The bill is crap, but at least Pelosi was right about needing to pass it so we'd know what it would (or wouldn't) do.
  • Apr 22, 2010, 07:05 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    ex, this ain't about fire departments you master of misdirection.

    Hello again, Steve:

    It's closer to fire departments than you think. The IDEA behind fire departments is that we POOL the risk of our houses burning down, and we ALL pay for that protection. Health care reform is the SAME thing. We POOL the risk of getting sick, and we ALL pay for that protection.

    It's the SAME thing. It really is. Smoothy's point that it's different because HIS firemen aren't paid, is really rather ridiculous. Certainly, the fire trucks are taxpayer property. The 911 system IS taxpayer property. The fuel that goes into those trucks is paid for by the taxpayer.. However, the POINT that I was attempting to make, is that NOBODY pay's for their own fire protection. You pay for your neighbors and he pays for yours.

    Now, I realize that it's just not possible for you righty's to make that connection.. But, that's NOT going to stop me from trying to educate you.

    excon
  • Apr 22, 2010, 07:12 AM
    excon

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You're living in a dream world.

    Most fire departments in the country AREN'T paid for by tax dollars. They aren't where I live either. MY fire department is a volunteer dept.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    Unless your community hires a PRIVATE fire department, ALL the fire departments in this great country of ours are TAX PAYER SUPPORTED. To argue that they're NOT, because YOUR fire fighters are volunteers, misses the point.

    But, I used to you missing the point.

    excon
  • Apr 22, 2010, 07:19 AM
    tomder55

    Apples and oranges. If my neighbors house goes up in smoke there is a risk to me because my house could catch fire from the sparks.
    That is why communities think it a good use of tax dollars; to provide for the common safety of the community .
  • Apr 22, 2010, 07:38 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    apples and oranges. If my neighbors house goes up in smoke there is a risk to me because my house could catch fire from the sparks.
    That is why communities think it a good use of tax dollars; to provide for the common safety of the community .

    Hello again, tom:

    Apples and APPLES. If your neighbor girl goes to school with UNTREATED strep throat, your CHILDREN are at RISK, and so is your FAMILY. That's why looking out for your neighbor's health is a GOOD use of tax dollars - to provide for the common safety of the community.

    Like I said, the connection is IMPOSSIBLE for righty's to make. Maybe it's because you guys all eat the same thing. Or, maybe you all watch the same TV channel.

    excon
  • Apr 22, 2010, 07:57 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    Unless your community hires a PRIVATE fire department, ALL the fire departments in this great country of ours are TAX PAYER SUPPORTED. To argue that they're NOT, because YOUR fire fighters are volunteers, misses the point.

    But, I used to you missing the point.

    excon

    YOU are missing the point... volunteer fire departments are NOT taxpayer supported. I don't know where in the hell you are pulling that information from... but it's a dark place that doesn't smell very pleasant.

    I have a number of personal friends who are volunteer firemen... and in fact family members have been going back further than 30 years. They don't get grants... or even matching funds, much less have the bills paid by taxpayers via tax dollars.

    And certainly unlike Obamas brand of SOCIALISM... his homeboys don't get something for free when 53% of the public is extorted to pay not only for their own... but the lazy 47% who won't as well.

    That's only a good idea to the lazy SOB's who won't be forced to pay anything.
  • Apr 22, 2010, 08:09 AM
    tomder55

    It then would be in the community interest to decide that sick children shouldn't go to school.But it is not the community's responsibility to make sure she goes to the doctor or to pay for it.

    Perhaps you could make the argument that a vaccination program is in the community interest . I see no rationale that says my neighbor should pay for my sniffles .

    Take your argument to it's logical conclusion .If it's in my interest to make sure my neighbor or my neighbor's daughter doesn't get sick then why not mandate that they go for an annual check up and have their records public ? Why not ? If mine and your health is really a matter of public concern then let's post everyone's health records .
    Let's really get draconian and demand that my neighbor and child participate in mandatory exercise regime to keep their weight in check . I want details about what they eat and drink.

    Back to your fire analogy..
    If your house becomes a fire hazard it becomes a community concern subject to enforcement action . You can't wire it without a certified electrician right? and if you attempted to an inspector would stop you and post a bright red notice on your house telling your neighbors of your violation.

    Is that what you are advocating ? Nope ,you just want us to pay without demanding any reciprocal responsible actions in return.
  • Apr 22, 2010, 08:12 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    YOU are missing the point.....volunteer fire departments are NOT taxpayer supported.

    Hello again, smoothy:

    Let's take this a step at a time. It's fine that YOUR firemen don't get paid. There's lots of community's that are served that way. But, there's a lot of other expenses involved with running a fire department than just payroll. Who owns the fire trucks your volunteer department uses? Who pays the 911 operator? Who pays for gasoline that goes into those trucks? Who owns or pays rent on the station WHERE the fire truck is kept? Who buys the firefighters equipment?

    I'm going to stop there. I know you don't get it. I'm not trying to convince you, though. That AIN'T going to happen. I'm writing for the other people who're reading this thread.

    excon

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