So you have no problems with Obama going WAY further to the left than Bush did? WOW!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I think his label would be more like a Socialist with a severe leftward tilt.
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So you have no problems with Obama going WAY further to the left than Bush did? WOW!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I think his label would be more like a Socialist with a severe leftward tilt.
Hello again, gal:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I know.
excon
He's leaning left all right. If we don't prop him up, he's going to fall over the line into something worse.
I do not want our country to be a Socialist country. I do not want to be like Canada or the UK. I like Democracy, a Capitalist system and the freedom to be what I want to be. Not in that order.
I'm in Canada and we are more of a democracy than the US (you are a federal constitutional republic), it's a capitalistic system, we have all the freedom a man could want, and we have a great universal healthcare system.
Yep. So wonderful that your citizens come to the USA for their health care. So wonderful that your doctors come HERE to work and get paid a decent wage. So wonderful that your own government is trying to find ways to privatize parts of the system because government-run health care costs too much and is too inefficient and patients are dying or losing limbs waiting on lines for care they should already have and WOULD have in the USA even if they couldn't pay for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Your lame attempts to paint your health care system as "wonderful" flies in the face of what everyone knows to be true. Your own newspapers report of the failings of your health care system every day. Your own government puts out the statistics that condemn that system.
Elliot
Amen wondergirl! I'm so sick of the Obama bashing! Those of us in the real world can appreciate the changes he is making. After 8 years of an idiocracy we finally have a leader with the balls to protect ALL AMERICANS not just the gun toting, bible thumping, anti choice white majority with fat pocketbooks. (before you pick apart my last statement, I am a single white mother from an upper middleclass family that was raised southern baptist in the Heart of Alabama that can still call a spade a spade) Give him time, you gave the idiot Bush way too much so shut it and deal with the fallout he caused.
Canada is a good place to live but we are not as free as people think. We have almost no right to bear arms, healthcare often involves waiting times of weeks or even months for essential treatment and freedom of speech is greatly threatened by section 13 of the human rights act. This act is used by politically correct left-wing special interest groups to persecute people who are harmless but have unpopular views.
I know, and our government pays for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
You are one angry man.
Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
BUT you have no problem with Bush bashing for the last 8+ years!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommy805
How hypocritical is that!
Why don't you for once take your own suggestionQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
"Pathetic response - please do not post on this board."
450,
What part didn't you like? The facts or me not understanding why Elliot goes to such lengths to try to convince me how unhappy I should be?
Canada is a Socialist country?? When did that happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
You need to get out more if you think people in Canada or the UK are any less free than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
Have you ever been outside the US?
That quote of yours reveals much about you, including the fact that you know little about other nations. The USA is not the only model for democracy in the world, in fact from the view of an outsider, it appears to be a very flawed model. Now my own nation, Australia, was also modeled after the American system with a few local twists, and its democratic institutions work much better than yours seem to do. We have a socialist, by american standards, implementation with universal health care, government owned enterprises and so on. Capitalism thrives here without the thieves being fostered by the system and when our politicians do a deal to get legislation through it isn't decorated with pork barrelling in the fashion of the US democracy. Our leader is required to answer to the parliament every day of the session, Whilst this appears like a bear pit at times, there is no part of executive action which doesn't face scruitiny by the electorateQuote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
Good response. Our system down here sure has its faults but as you imply we certainly aren't lacking any 'rights'...Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Im just waiting for Elliot to attack our health care system now.
Hi Needkarma
I have been talking to people in Canada for years about their Health Care System. You are the first person I have heard say they like it. I am a Nurse and we often hired temps from Canada. They were the nicest people you would ever meet and all very hard workers. They all said your health care is a nightmare for the elderly and poor.
Here is what your Newspaper had to say about it today. The Chronicle.
Ay, July 23, 2009
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The U.S. government runs Medicaid and Medicare and they are both bankrupt! So now we want the government to run the rest of the health-care business?
Well, first take a look at the government-run system in Canada.
The doctor shortage in Canada is so great that cities run lotteries for a doctor's appointment, and long wait times to see doctors have caused overcrowded emergency rooms. The Canadian Medical Association reports that patients wait more than nine hours to be seen and more than 24 hours to be admitted in Canadian emergency rooms. According to the Canadian Broadcasting Co. the average wait time in Canada for surgery is more than five months. The wait time for a CT scan is two months in Manitoba, and the wait time for a MRI is five months in Newfoundland.
Dr. Richard F. Davis, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute, described what's happening to patients waiting for coronary bypass surgery. In one year while waiting for this one operation, 71 patients died,
One-hundred twenty-one became too sick for surgery and 44 left to have the operation in the United States. The Calgary Herald reported that 25,000 Calgary residents were waiting for surgery or scans at just four city hospitals. Alberta Health's Web site lists the following surgery wait times: 15 months for hip replacement, 15 months general surgery, 13 months for knee replacement, three months for cardiac surgery and 13 months for an MRI scan.
According to the Acton Institute in Grand Rapids, Mich. since February 2007 Ontario hospitals have sent 421 heart patients, 75 pregnant women or their babies and 25 women with high risk pregnancies to U.S. hospitals to receive care that they could not provide. And that's just Ontario! There are nine more provinces up there!
John Johannsen
Augusta
From the Thursday, July 23, 2009 edition of the Augusta Chronicle
Australia's population has twice as many immigrants as we do, Why do you list the aboriginal's as immigrants? Your growth rate is 1.7%. Your interest rate 3% Your government is a constitutional monarchy,democratic federal state system. Your budget was overdrawn more than ours was last march. We caught up and passed you in May. Your inflation rate is 2,5%/year. You export, lots of food products and minerals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skell
My dream was to spend a year in Australia. A car wreck kiboshed that. I think I would like Australia even if you don't have a "bill of rights" You do have a constitution patterned after ours.
Take good care of your country. Don't let it get in the condition ours is right now. We will pull through this depression and Healthcare problem and be just fine. We have done it before. So when your country has problems, just let us know. I'm sure we would be supportive and loan money too.https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images.../biggrin.gif:-)
Really. My sister is a Masters of Nursing and she's married to a doctor with his own practice. I hear differently. You see it matters not if you are old or poor in our country, it's universal healthcare.Quote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
[quote=lshadylady;1875044Here is what your Newspaper had to say about it today. The Chronicle.
The U.S. government runs Medicaid and Medicare and they are both bankrupt! So now we want the government to run the rest of the health-care business?
Well, first take a look at the government-run system in Canada.
The doctor shortage in Canada is so great that cities run lotteries for a doctor's appointment[/quote]That is an oft-repeated talking point by those that disseminate misinformation. Let me guess... you listen to that nitcase Glen Beck? These so-called "lotteries" seem to all stems form one article: Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US. Here, you even need to airlift mediacal resources to communities that have nothing: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity - 60 Minutes - CBS News
Really. My sister is a Masters of Nursing and she's married to a doctor with his own practice. I hear differently. You see it matters not if you are old or poor in our country, it's universal healthcare.Quote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
That is an oft-repeated talking point by those that disseminate misinformation. Let me guess... you listen to that nitcase Glen Beck? These so-called "lotteries" seem to all stems form one article: Gander medical clinic holds doctor draw It was for a clinic in Gander Newfoundland, population 9951. The same type of situation alsio happens in rural communities in the US. Here, you even need to airlift mediacal resources to communities that have nothing: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity - 60 Minutes - CBS NewsQuote:
Originally Posted by lshadylady
I am glad to hear something good. I live in a small city in NYS about 90 miles from the border.Our Government stepped in and closed many of our busiest clinics this last year. I live near the hospital and the Helicopters flying in and out transporting patients to a big city hospital gets nerve wracking at times. As a patient, I would rather stay close to home and if I need specialist that is not here, drive to another hospital. That kind of thing has me anticipating nightmares. I need a more positive attitude.:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Rural living has its benefits... and its drawbacks. Hope you feel fine for a good lond while.
To Skell;
You need to get out more if you think people in Canada or the UK are any less free than you.
Have you ever been outside the U
I have been to Canada. That's all. I read a lot!
:-()
That quote was funny when Mark Twain's emmissary did a reading on TV years ago.
Don't try to guess the type of person I am
NK,
Do you even realize the pattern you are following?
When I say that the Canadian health system has many problems, you deny it. When you hear from Canadians who say that the Canadian health system has problems (Like Earl237 in post number 207) you ignore them. When others tell you what Canadian health professionals have told them, you tell them that you personal experience is different from theirs. When someone cites a news article on the issue, you say that the newspaper itself is either biased or is giving information out of context.
You just can't admit that there are people other than you who have major issues with the Canadian system. YOU are not the only person in Canada, and others have a very different experience than you do.
As a point of interest, people between the ages of 7 and 50 generally don't see the difference in care between a nationalized health care system and a private system. That's because unless they are particularly unlucky genetically, prone to accidents or are unlucky enough to catch a really bad disease, they don't spend all that much time dealing with doctors. UNDER 7 and OVER 50, you spend much more time dealing with doctors. The children, of course, don't know the difference, it's their parents who have to deal with it. It's the folks who are over 50 who tend to have more experience with the medical profession.
I don't know how old you are, NK. But I suspect that you are not yet 40. Nor are you chronically ill. So the fact is that you don't really have enough direct experience to know just how bad your country's medical system is. That is why your personal experience differs so widely from the statistical information coming out of the Canadian government. Simply put, you don't HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE dealing with medicine in Canada... or anywhere else. You are a young, healthy person with little need for doctors as part of your day-to-day life. You have admitted as much yourself elsewhere in our conversations. You have told me yourself that you haven't had that much experience dealing with medical issues.
Good for you. I hope that trend continues.
Not so good for those who are older than you or not as lucky as you are, and have to spend more time dealing with doctors. People who DO have more experience than you do in dealing with the Canadian health system have much less faith in it than you do.
BTW, I heard a story just yesterday from a woman currently living in the USA, but who grew up in Canada. She was talking about her sister, still in Canada, who just found out she's pregnant. Her OB-GYN appointment was set for 10 months from now.
Read that again.
Her preganancy OB-GYN appointment is set for 10 months from now... a month after the baby is due.
Now, I'm sure that this mistake will be easily fixed. Probably just a phone call to the doctor's office or the local medical administration office will take care of it. I'm sure that even the bureaucrats in Canada can figure out that this makes no sense, and will do everything they can to fix this error. They'll get her into her doctor's office in a reasonable amount of time.
But if there weren't queues in the first place being set up by bureaucrats, this error would never have happened at all. If people didn't need to get permission from someone else to see their doctor this never would have happened in the first place.
Something like this happening one time is comical, worthy of a good laugh. But when such errors become systemic, it becomes a waste of time and money and slows the entire medical system even more. It reduces the amount of time that medical administrators have to actually deal with supplying health care. Every minute, every dollar spent on fixing little humorous errors like this one is a minute and a dollar not being spent taking care of people.
And THAT is one of the basic, fundamental problems with government-run nationalized health care.
Private companies make mistakes too. But every mistake comes out of their bottom line, so managers work very hard to minimize mistakes. In government-run systems, there is no bottom line to worry about, so efficiency isn't an issue for them. And mistakes continue to happen because there is no incentive to minimize them.
Any government-run system has this basic flaw. That is why government-run systems tend to lose money quickly... like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security and even the Postal System in the USA. They are all inefficient, and therefore they are money losers and end up providing poor services. Not because they are bad people, but because the system itself is flawed by its very nature. It cannot be efficient if it is run by the government.
Elliot
Hello again, El:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Does the government RUN highway paving? Or does the government just pay for private contractors to do it?
Our system isn't going to be run by the government... You're spiffing...
excon
Hi elliot,
- No, no system is perfect but you are trying to paint us as something we are not.
- yes I'm over 40
- my parents are both over 70, no issues with them getting healthcare.. ever
- This board being on the web reaches an international audience yet the medical questions being asked on the health boards are overwhemnigly by americans, canadians would simply go see their doctor.
Also you want to paint me as *lucky* guy in my system. Other than earl (who seems to be canadian or american depending on the day) you seem to hear positives from us yet you try very hard to convince us that we should be unhappy with our system - you are one very negative person.
We have lotteries for doctor visits? By the way, I'm still waiting for your response to the latest Canadian survey.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I was referring to the US rationing resources in rural areas which is what was happening in Gander.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
About the survey - everyone should have a look at it, it doesn't reflect very badly on our system at all. Yes we have some work to do in some areas but canadians are generally satisfied. Of course the answers to the privatized healthcare questions came with no financial strings attached so the answers aren't reflective of how it would affect all families at different income levels.
Then how do you explain the statistics that Speechless cited? If you are the common experience, how do you explain that over 50% of your country's population wants to see a change to a more privatized system?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Elliot
Read my reply before you post.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Hello again, El:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Surprise, surprise... You think we should swallow your crap because it came from YOU?? Dude! Life don't happen that way.
I don't know why you think YOUR statistics are golden, and ours are ka ka. Why do you think right wing websites speak the truth, but all others lie?? You HAVE drunk the koolaid. That's the only explanation... But, of course, we KNEW that.
excon
Actually excon check out the survey speech linked to, it isn't too damning at all.
It's also not as rosy as you make it sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Ok.
Hello Need:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
It looks like the surveyor designed the survey to come up with answers the surveyor wanted. That's why I don't believe it.
excon
Everyone is way off subject here.
The main question in the OP has to do with HOW Obama is going about to get his way.
It is clear that he wants to force changes through without regard to Constitution or reasoned debate.
I did. And that is why I posted this:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
In other words, you never responded to the poll numbers. You just denied them as if they didn't exist.Quote:
Do you even realize the pattern you are following?
When I say that the Canadian health system has many problems, you deny it. When you hear from Canadians who say that the Canadian health system has problems (Like Earl237 in post number 207) you ignore them. When others tell you what Canadian health professionals have told them, you tell them that you personal experience is different from theirs. When someone cites a news article on the issue, you say that the newspaper itself is either biased or is giving information out of context.
You just can't admit that there are people other than you who have major issues with the Canadian system. YOU are not the only person in Canada, and others have a very different experience than you do.
So I again ask, if yours is the common experience of most Canadians, how do you respond to those statistics?
Elliot
Ex, it wasn't a Fox News poll, it was THE health care survey in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The ones from Steve survey link that say that the majority of Canadians:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
a) agree that they are getting quality health care
b) that 93% agree that it is the responsibility of every Canadian to take care of their own health through prevention of illnesses and injuries, and by leading a healthy lifestyle. (personal responsibility - we must all be conservatives, oh my!! )
c) did not need to use personal savings to care for a family friend
d) did not experience any adverse effects or events as a result of care received in Canada’s health care system
Steve didn't show those because he did not want to.
Isn't that put out by the Canadian government?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Would the Canadian government deliberately create survey questions that make its own program look bad?
Is that the argument you are trying to make excon? That the Canadian government put out a survey that is designed to trash the Canadian Government's own health care system?
Hello again, El:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Nope, Steve did his own selective reporting to skew the results. S'ok. Need pointed it out.
But, I can tell when I'm handed a pile of crap, even if it's described as kosher sandwich.
excon
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