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You have yet to summon the courage to answer the question about the resurrection, so you lose all authority to question why others have not answered all of your questions. The resurrection question has been on the table for more than a year now. Time for an answer.Quote:
I mean like this - Why do you believe scripture says so?
Walter, no offense, but nobody takes you seriously, even your co-religionist.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Nice try, but fail. WHY do you believe scripture says so?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Walter, to make such a claim, you will need scriptural support. You plainly do not have any. The only sense I can make of your statement is if you are referring to what Jesus did on the cross.Quote:
God gave man all Authority over his creation. In order that Man would destroy Sin.
God incorporated Sin to destroy Sin.
And do you believe in the resurrection? You have consistently refused to answer that question for more than a year. Time to strap on some courage and go for it!! It is, after all, THE primary question of the NT. “And if Christ has not been raised… your faith is in vain… Your faith is futile and you are still in your sins… If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied."Quote:
Nice try, but fail. WHY do you believe scripture says so?
.Quote:
God gave man all Authority over his creation. In order that Man would destroy Sin.
God incorporated Sin In order to destroy Sin
Okay, now that you have this...read the Bible in its entirety and see what you come up with.
You should be able to pick up on this in The first three chapters.
Did God give man Authority? Did man not bruise the head? Is man not Sin? Did a man not defeat Sin and the power of Sin?
I have read the entire Bible more than once, have been a student in and led Bible study groups more times than you can imagine. I graduated from a Christian college and taught in a Christian school.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
In Genesis 3, God gave mankind free will so they wouldn't be His puppets. Thus, they could choose to do good or evil.
God did not give man authority to destroy sin. He gave Jesus that task. God incorporated (made flesh) His Son (not Sin) to destroy Sin.
. Not even close to what was stated. nice try. Try again...God said let them have Dominion and Authority.Quote:
God did not give man authority to destroy sin.
He did not say let us have!
Jesus became Sin.
Get off your man made doctrine for one sec.
I'm on a small tablet. I can't see too good. I'll simply leave it at that.
Authority was given. The bruising of the head. Jesus being made Sin. A man (human flesh) defeating death and the power of Sin. Resurrected, King of All creation! His kingdom reigns forever. The kingdoms of this world will pass away. Jesus has that same Authority that God gave man...why? Not because Jesus is God, but Because Jesus is Man.
You wanted scripture, it is backed by scripture. Its easy enough for you to look it up.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You are misunderstanding this.Quote:
Authority was given. The bruising of the head. Jesus being made Sin. A man (human flesh) defeating death and the power of Sin.
"Sin” is the term that the Jews used for sin offerings.
Christ, who is sinless, was made our sin offering. So Paul’s not calling Christ evil. That’s crucial. Sin is evil, and so calling Christ “sin” (in the way we use the word) would be calling Him evil, an obvious heresy (particularly since Paul just said that Christ is sinless). Calling Him our sin offering, on the other hand, is completely orthodox. Christ died for our sins: that’s the foundation of Christian theology.
http://shamelesspopery.com/jesus-became-sin/
Walter, surely you realize that is the weakest response you could have made? It amounts to, "Oh, just read the whole Bible and you'll see it in there somewhere!!" Pretty bad.Quote:
Okay, now that you have this...read the Bible in its entirety and see what you come up with.
You should be able to pick up on this in The first three chapters.
It is one thing to say God gave man authority. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It's entirely different to say God gave up all of HIS authority in doing so. Genesis 3 makes it very plain that your idea there is not true.
Your understanding of it is wrong. It does not need be backed up by scripture...it need be backed up by the Holy Spirit.
It's not all that important that you see it but it might Bring a person closer too "Kingdom awareness.
Realise we don't belong to any of the kingdoms of this world. We belong to a kingdom that is not of this world.
Christians understand that statement much the same way as when Jesus said it...they haven't A clue.
Power, Authority, Law, Culture...its all included In the Kingdom of God.
Man giving his Authority (Flesh been given all Authority), so that Heaven on earth.
Otherwise God just came Down, exerted his Authority and said - here's how it gonna be boyz!
You don’t need scripture? Well…ok then. At least you have made that view plain.
you don't need the Holy Spirit? Well...ok then. (Touche!)
Scripture is useless without the Holy Spirit.
Debating scripture against scripture is futile.
Who said God had to give up his Authority? God Gave Authority to man...AKA Jesus???
God knew what he was doing.
We all need the Holy Spirit. I’ve never said otherwise. You have just said, however, that you do not need the Bible to support your views. That’s all yours
I'm not sure what it is with you and WG?
You have a practice of distorting certain statements?
Take another looksie. That's not at all what I said.
If I mention -God gave man Authority - that is strait out of Scripture. I need quote, verbatim, text and verse?
The Holy spirit speaks - and if I repeat...I need backed by scripture? Yes maybe it does need be backed by scripture. God said: "Let us make man in our image." Is that right out of the Bible or is it the Holy spirit speaking to you? You need backed by scripture? fact is, if I'm talking to a fellow believer, they should know that that comes right out of the Bible. If I'm speaking with a non believer they could care less what chapter and verse. But yes, I get what your saying. It just seems so simple, I thought you might pick up on it right away. WG is another story. I could quote (not me personally) chapter and verse and it will still draw a blank.
Example: God gave man Authority - where do you get that, better back it up with scripture. -
God gave them Authority! Wait wait, I need verse and book. I can't debate with you. I can't teach you. You need the Holy spirit in order to gain understanding.
You say everything need be backed up with scripture. That's why I see you constantly going round and round with no real understanding that a person need the Holy Spirit. You've been arguing for how many yrs? It is useless to argue with somebody who only picks up Bible verses for the use of Doctrine/debate.
Christians believe that prayer is going to get this country out of the mess, the mess they created.
2 Cronicles 7:14 is the only (remedy) way this Country/Church will come out of this.
“It does not need to be backed up by scripture.” That is your quote. Perhaps you meant to say something else.
I was referring to your understanding of it. You seem to believe, if it is backed up by scripture...if I can show my understanding as plain. As day...in the scripture, you would believe?
I did back it up with scripture (I didn't indicate chapter and verse) and it was rendered irrelevant...foul, foul you didn't mention chapter and verse.
In as much as you have backed it up with scripture - Our good friends - Still haven't a clue?
Its okay to simply Speak the Word, backed up by the Holy Spirit...is better...its a start?
Actions speak louder than Words.
The only appeal to the Bible you made were vague references which included an admonition to read the entire Bible. I can only say that if you have Scripture to validate your views, then bring them forward. I'd love to see them.
But you haven't done either one! You've simply twisted words and meanings according to your own (very strange) understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I don't think you're getting through. Your opposition is basically a book. You seem to be very much in the spirit of things, not just the words in a book as valuable as that may be. It's still a step removed from the Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I don't pretend to understand you, but you do make for interesting reading.
@WG: yah, isn't that what we all do. If not that we simply turn it into an allegory.
We know that God gave "Man authority and dominion (Sovereign Authority), over the Earth...we know God told Saten that the Woman would kick his arse . We know it is written: He became Sin.
We know he is King. We know he has all Authority. We know his Resurrection. We know Sin has been defeated.
We know heaven (along with the big man himself) will be on Earth. Pray for the truth to be revealed to you.
You seem to be hung up on the fact that God having relinquish his Authority over to man? Egypt, Pharaoh, Joseph? God simply gave Authority to Jesus/Man...hmm, maybe I'd better find that and post it...daaaah
God didn't interfere with Eve's conversation (Adam might have) with the Serpent. God did not have the Authority to do so...Adam did. Adam never gave the fruit to anybody...yet God went strait to Adam. It was Adams responsibility. Why would God Curse the Serpent? The Serpent allowed the Devil to take possession of his body? Why is Jesus called the lamb of God...maybe because of that first Lamb (the one that gave his life so that God could provide coverings for their Sin)?
@Athos: We know that when God speaks things happen. It will happen - just as God uttered it.
It's like when Jesus told Mathew "Come follow me." You might think Mathew had a choice...there was no choice. it came Directly out of the mouth of God. I don't fully understand the relation between the Word of God and the speaking of the Word of God. But I know there is Power in the Word...just a matter of speaking it...knowing it...believing it...giving yourself over too it?
It's duh, not daaaah.
(And it IS an allegory, as is the Tower of Babel story, Jonah and the Great Fish story, and the Flood story.)
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