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Respect is a good word for it. It's also true that we should expect and encourage people to do such things since it is the only path to economic freedom and success.Quote:
Many times, and it's not easy, and it's not pity either but empathy, and huge respect.
Start with a living wage.
Yes, that is a worthwhile objective, but it has to go hand in hand with controlling profits and removing high end executive salaries and compensation packagesQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Very few people, less than 5%, work for minimum wage. We should be telling people to become valuable and reach the place where you are in demand.Quote:
Start with a living wage.
Socialism. What is needed is simply free enterprise. If anyone is jealous of the salaries of high end execs, then they need to become a high end exec. Controlling profits? Are you kidding? We would need an even larger fed gov than we have now. It's a terrible idea.Quote:
Yes, that is a worthwhile objective, but it has to go hand in hand with controlling profits and removing high end executive salaries and compensation packages
I don't think, jl, that you have ever heard of fairness, this "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" crap, is just that, crap. Every citizen should have the right to a fair share of the wealth of the nation, it should not be reserved for a privileged few who happen to have some money and that the poorest should be able to "work" for a fair wage is not an outlandish proposal. You see everything as an increase in government, but enact fair laws and create courts to enforce themQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So how much of your paycheck do you voluntarily give away to others in the name of "fairness"?Quote:
I don't think, jl, that you have ever heard of fairness, this "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" crap, is just that, crap. Every citizen should have the right to a fair share of the wealth of the nation, it should not be reserved for a privileged few who happen to have some money and that the poorest should be able to "work" for a fair wage is not an outlandish proposal. You see everything as an increase in government, but enact fair laws and create courts to enforce them
Honestly, I don't know of anything that should scare us more than a governement agency in charge of determining what is fair. It will just become a vote gathering machine based upon liberals giving away money that belongs to others. When the government gets to decide what kinds of profits are acceptable, or what kinds of salaries are "fair", then you have just received your introduction to socialism.
As I said earlier, my only concern about wages is giving everyone the freedom to work hard and make something out of themselves. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is crap? Man, you are frightfully ignorant of American history. It's been the story of the United States.
I'm not talking about reducing anyone's paycheque but properly valuing labour, I don't believe that anyone should need more than one job for basic necessities, but I oppose the corporate leeches who take millions in salary by keeping the wages of others lowQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Socialism is too close to communism: Don't need that here in the U.S.
U.S. is all about pulling yourself up by you boot straps.
Wages should not be controlled: This is poison to innovative ideas.
Any Government "control" is too much Government control.
Having the "Government" determine or set the standards for fairness is the way of destroying the nation.
From my perspective the US is all about self and selfish bullcrap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
My nation has not been destroyed by having the government determine or set the standards for fairness. In this nation wages are controlled so is outlandish corporate behaviour and gouging. This is considered against the public interest and this is one of the greatest economies in the world with high living standards, maybe even higher generally than you own
You fear socialism, but what we do isn't socialism, it is regulation. This reduces the welfare burden. You see it is all about ethos and this nation has always had an ethos of fairness. You force employers to pick up the health cheque, we don't do that, the tax system picks up the health cheque and obviously wages are part of the equation
What you call "self and selfish", we call freedom. Freedom from an oppressive, "big brother" government, and freedom from people who want to control the lives of others with some sense of "fairness".
As to the government setting wage controls and profit controls, of course that's socialism. The government must control businesses to do that, and that is certainly a form of socialism. You claimed, "I'm not talking about reducing anyone's paycheque," but that's exactly what you are talking about. You want the government to be able to come into a person's business and say, "Your profit is excessive, and your manager's salary is excessive, but no problem! We'll just solve that problem by forcing you to do what we want with your money." Thanks, but no thanks. I'll let you keep what you have. You say you don't "believe" a person should have to work more than one job. That's fine for you to believe that, but I have no idea why you think you should be able to force that belief on others. You seem to view others as weak individuals that need the government to come alongside and prop up their lives by controlling them and the companies for which they work. I much prefer allowing people to live in a free society where that person can accomplish as much, or as little, as he or she is willing to work for.
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Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Give the people the power and they will take it., The shareholders of our second largest bank just voted against the Board's renumeration recommendations for the second year running, they too are sick of these leeches taking money under false pretences you see they know when enough is enough.
I would rather live here where I know fairness exists than live there in poverty, you should give your people the opportunity to leave since you need a steady stream of poor to fill those low wage jobs.
I doubt this would happen in the US
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...begun/11804692
We don't need a strong "Central" Government in the U.S.....that is akin to Soviet style configurations....don't need it.
We need a central government strong enough to protect it's ever growing economically diverse population from those that would prey on it's people. We need a central government strong enough to manage the diverse interests of 50 nation states into one country, one society, one law. We already have enough rich guys who exploit cheap foreign labor and sell their stuff here at reduced rates for profits while our own workers get crumbs and reduced wages, and closed factories that destroy whole towns and counties.
Remember the deal the dufus and Pence cut with those Indiana factory workers? Let's just go ask them how well that worked out for THEM. Yeah that's the guy in the WH now!
I have no problem with that. It's free enterprise at work. It's when the governement gets to decide what is "fair" that problems begin. Besides, average wages in the United States are above Australia, so your "fairness" scheme does not seem to be accomplishing a lot.Quote:
Give the people the power and they will take it., The shareholders of our second largest bank just voted against the Board's renumeration recommendations for the second year running, they too are sick of these leeches taking money under false pretences you see they know when enough is enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage
I agree with your posts Clete and it scares me to think we share the same ideas about economic/social matters so closely!
@JL
Bad idea to compare the USA to any other country, and most disturbing you would support rich guys making laws and regulations that profit them through the elected officials the people choose. It's no wonder we still have poverty in the greatest nation on Earth. Even a blind man can see through the sham of corporate governess and profits that has suppressed wages and the freedoms of average citizens for many decades. Your assault on the working poor, aged, and disabled continues.
Better to compare the economic health of OUR states to each other for a much clearer picture of the FACTS.
Only in your continuing fantasy world. You really need to get therapy for that. What a strange world you live in. If those rich guys are making laws that profit them, then how do you explain the fact that those same rich guys are paying more than 80% of income taxes? They sure are doing a terrible job of "making laws and regulations that profit them."Quote:
most disturbing you would support rich guys making laws and regulations that profit them through the elected officials the people choose.
Yeah. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with drug abuse, out of wedlock births, some abysmally poor public education systems, the violence and threats of gangs in our inner cities, the absence of fathers, and a generational addiction to a welfare system which keeps people in poverty. I'm sure those things have no influence. Yeah, you're bound to be right. It's those mean ole rich people who are to blame!!Quote:
It's no wonder we still have poverty in the greatest nation on Earth. Even a blind man can see through the sham of corporate governess and profits that has suppressed wages and the freedoms of average citizens for many decades. Your assault on the working poor, aged, and disabled continues.
Suppressed wages? As usual, you completely ignore the facts. If all these rich guys are conspiring to suppress wages, then they sure are doing a lousy job of it. We have the fourth highest average wages in the world behind only the very small nations of Luxembourg, Iceland, and Switzerland. So you really think we are suppressing wages? Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage
It's such an amazing thing. We live, right now, in one of the greatest economic periods of time in the history of the earth, and yet people still want to complain about...the economy!! Low inflation and low unemployment do not normally go together. Enjoy it while we have it. The liberal dems will mess it up sooner or later.
They are rich so whatever they are doing is working very well and has been for a long time. They can employ many lawyers accountants and LOBBYIEST where you cannot so who speaks to your congress person on your behalf? Who do you think they listen too? It's probably you who is in the fantasy world if you think you influence them more than your local and state businessmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Poor people cannot bring in the boatload of drugs, or even fund their schools, or send those fathers to jail, and the second economy is all they have to get a buck. they don't decide where the money goes or who administers to it so stop blaming them for the ills of society. Somebody profits enormously from keeping people poor, uneducated, and unorganized. Follow the money let me know what YOU find.Quote:
Yeah. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with drug abuse, out of wedlock births, some abysmally poor public education systems, the violence and threats of gangs in our inner cities, the absence of fathers, and a generational addiction to a welfare system which keeps people in poverty. I'm sure those things have no influence. Yeah, you're bound to be right. It's those mean ole rich people who are to blame!!
See how you talk past yourself? The FACT they are rich and hold so much wealth despite your claim and theirs they pay SO MUCH in taxes is the evidence they are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf. Not the other way around. How dare you think of yourself as being on the same level with those rich guys just because you work for them! That a dellusion we do NOT share!Quote:
Suppressed wages? As usual, you completely ignore the facts. If all these rich guys are conspiring to suppress wages, then they sure are doing a lousy job of it. We have the fourth highest average wages in the world behind only the very small nations of Luxembourg, Iceland, and Switzerland. So you really think we are suppressing wages? Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage
That's the problem dude!
It's not like it can't be better for more people. Even if that means helping you crazy talking misinformed wingers. That's the difference between me and you, I want all the boats to rise with the tide, not just the yachts and high end tubs but the handmade canoes too!Quote:
It's such an amazing thing. We live, right now, in one of the greatest economic periods of time in the history of the earth, and yet people still want to complain about...the economy!! Low inflation and low unemployment do not normally go together. Enjoy it while we have it. The liberal dems will mess it up sooner or later.
That's kind of the whole point. What they are doing, for most of them, is working smart and hard.Quote:
They are rich so whatever they are doing is working very well and has been for a long time
They can, however, not take drugs. They can not have children until they are married. And they should have options rather than having to send their children to government schools that don't work. You want to treat these people like they are little children who need liberal dems to come alongside and spend other people's money so they can feel like paragons of virtue. I don't agree with that approach. I'm not rich, but I'm not at all jealous of rich people. As a lover of freedom, I think they should be free to spend their own money as they see fit. Now if you know of laws that unfairly benefit the wealthy, then we can talk about that. But as long as they pay very nearly all of income taxes, then your claim that they have swayed the law in their favor is simply a hollow one.Quote:
Poor people cannot bring in the boatload of drugs, or even fund their schools, or send those fathers to jail, and the second economy is all they have to get a buck. they don't decide where the money goes or who administers to it so stop blaming them for the ills of society. Somebody profits enormously from keeping people poor, uneducated, and unorganized. Follow the money let me know what YOU find.
Let me get this straight. You are claiming that the fact that they pay nearly all of the income taxes is evidence that are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf? Good grief. That's completely stupid.Quote:
The FACT they are rich and hold so much wealth despite your claim and theirs they pay SO MUCH in taxes is the evidence they are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf.
Now you're lying. I've never said that and never believed it. I don't mean to offend, but that has all the appearance of a completely ignorant statement you make since you have nothing logical to appeal to. Besides, during my career in education I did NOT work for them. So your statement is just completely, completely wrong.Quote:
How dare you think of yourself as being on the same level with those rich guys just because you work for them! That a dellusion we do NOT share!
I respectfully submit that by working hard you mean using high paid lawyers and accountants and lobbyist to get your elected officials to write them favorable tax laws and regulations then I would agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I must dismiss this thinking as a personal rant that doesn't deserve comment!Quote:
They can, however, not take drugs. They can not have children until they are married. And they should have options rather than having to send their children to government schools that don't work. You want to treat these people like they are little children who need liberal dems to come alongside and spend other people's money so they can feel like paragons of virtue. I don't agree with that approach. I'm not rich, but I'm not at all jealous of rich people. As a lover of freedom, I think they should be free to spend their own money as they see fit. Now if you know of laws that unfairly benefit the wealthy, then we can talk about that. But as long as they pay very nearly all of income taxes, then your claim that they have swayed the law in their favor is simply a hollow one.
Only stupid to the ignorant of how your country fiscally really works. Taxes are not the totality of revenues. Just HALF so where does the rest come from and more importantly who holds the wealth and who pays the bills?Quote:
Let me get this straight. You are claiming that the fact that they pay nearly all of the income taxes is evidence that are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf? Good grief. That's completely stupid.
I am not offended as I never take your posts personally, and sorry if my posts are taken personally by you, but that's honestly not my problem. Not to bust your bubble(?) but even you know that your whole career has depended on you doing as you're told and the results of being a small fish in a big pond that you cannot control. Whether that's willful or involuntary matters little, though I suspect it was willful even as you blame others for poor outcomes, and results, which we have discussed at length before.Quote:
Now you're lying. I've never said that and never believed it. I don't mean to offend, but that has all the appearance of a completely ignorant statement you make since you have nothing logical to appeal to. Besides, during my career in education I did NOT work for them. So your statement is just completely, completely wrong.
I have come to accept that in our discussions and never surprised at your consistency. We seldom agree about most things, no big deal to me.
In other words, you have no answers whatsoever. That's what you always do when you can't think of anything informative to say.Quote:
I must dismiss this thinking as a personal rant that doesn't deserve comment!
I have never blamed anyone else for the performance of my schools. For one thing, there was never any need to. Thanks to the hard work of many people, we did very well. Blaming others for poor outcomes? Isn't that kind of like holding them responsible? What do you think we should, pat them on the back? As to "doing what you're told", you just revealed that you know absolutely nothing about being a school principal.Quote:
I am not offended as I never take your posts personally, and sorry if my posts are taken personally by you, but that's honestly not my problem. Not to bust your bubble(?) but even you know that your whole career has depended on you doing as you're told and the results of being a small fish in a big pond that you cannot control. Whether that's willful or involuntary matters little, though I suspect it was willful even as you blame others for poor outcomes, and results, which we have discussed at length before.
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