 |
They had a terrible record on Iraq WMD . All you have to do is read Hans Blix conflicting testimony to the UN in the months leading up OIF . They have had an even worse record about Iran's nuke program. We learned most of what we know from defectors .The IAEA missed one site after another .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We learned a load of crap from defectors in Iraq and it is not unlikely we have learned a load of crap from defectors in Iran, what part of telling you what you want to hear don't you understand?
It is already confirmed that the sites Iran was hiding ,that were disclosed by the defectors exist . Iran has confirmed that .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes so along the way you will get to know whether they have done what they agreed. What I understand is that no one does instant, no one does exactly what others expect, all we can hope for is a robust agreement that we don't need a war to enforce. What we don't need is a war to put an agreement in place, there have been enough battered nations, enough failed nations and we have more than enough conflict.
Tom we too often look to see conflict that might not exist. Right now Russia is a serious concern in the Ukraine. Iran might be making political gains in Iraq, but you choose not to escalate your involvement. Syria just tears itsself apart but it is an artificial construct, a legacy of WWI imperial thinking, the whole of the middle east is the same, part of the great game, which you now play with Russia and Iran. Playing this game has destroyed empires
The strawman argument is that we have to accept THIS agreement or have a war . WE should've walked away until the Iranians agreed to terms close to what we wanted . All this agreement is one way concessions on our part with NO reciprocal concessions on theirs .Quote:
What we don't need is a war to put an agreement in place,
Tom who has been beating the tom toms of war, The US has been threatening Iran for years over this, It is not Iran who has been saying to the US you can't have nuclear weapons, Send another aircraft carrier into the Gulf it may impress them
And what will we do when we walk away and the rest of the world does business with the Iranian? Do you really think the other negotiating partners will walk away with us and continue to punish Iran's economy?
No I don't expect the rest of the world will continue to punish Iran because the rest of the world doesn't have the same issue with Iran. I get it that your embassy was attacked and captives taken, I get it that you got your asses kicked in a failed rescue attempt setting the scene for long term issues between you.
I get it that they have a philosopy so foreign to you that you want regime change. I get it that you fought a proxy war with them using Saddam. I also get that you are responding to pressure from Israel and your own jewish lobby. What none of us want is another US preemptive strike and belligerousness from US republicans and hawks.
Walk away from the deal if you want and we will go back to the same crap we have heard for the last ten years and teh Iranians will continue their enrichment to gain plutonium. The Iranian rhetoric has toned down in recent times. They have a focus on daesh because unlike yourselves daesh is a real threat. Syria is a key ally for them, the shiites of Iraq are important and they have the military capability to put boots on the ground
Who ? Me ? What bs ! Under the emperor ,the US treats Israel as the pariah ,not Iran (the worlds biggest state sponsor of terrorism).Quote:
I also get that you are responding to pressure from Israel and your own jewish lobby
Again with the strawman false choice . Make a deal with Iran when they are serious about making a real deal . Essentially ,all this deal is capitulation and concessions without anything reciprocal. The Iranians were ALREADY under the inspection regime of the IAEA .The sanctions were for VIOLATIONS of UN mandates . So what was gained ? The only beneficiaries from this deal are the Iranians . They give nothing in return .Quote:
What none of us want is another US preemptive strike and belligerousness from US republicans and hawks.
No your republican politicians, didn't you allow the Israeli PM to address your congress? In the middle of your negotiations with Iran? What message did that send? That the american government is whiped by a bunch of jewish political contributions. I have another name for it but the editor would edit it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
When will you realise you got the only deal you were going to get, they weren't going to dismantle their nuclear power industry for you. You have been forced to give them back their own money and allow them to have normal relations with other countries but guess what, no trade deal for you! The Irans had to dismantle a significant part of their industry, where do you get the idea they didn't have to give anything away?Quote:
Again with the strawman false choice . Make a deal with Iran when they are serious about making a real deal . Essentially ,all this deal is capitulation and concessions without anything reciprocal. The Iranians were ALREADY under the inspection regime of the IAEA .The sanctions were for VIOLATIONS of UN mandates . So what was gained ? The only beneficiaries from this deal are the Iranians . They give nothing in return .
Tom in international diplomacy big gains are rare, incremental progress is what you hope for. You have been the bully on the block for so long you think that every idea you have is going to be accepted but 95% of the world don't think the way you do. Obama has just done the grandstand thing on climate change and he thinks the rest of us will fall in line before he proves he can actually put it in place, it's another Obama photo op and a diversion from that other debate. He wants to give his congress something to chomp on 'cause they can't chew 'baccy and spit at the same time. What's better than an internal issue that will get their local constituents hollerin' and while they are dealing with that the Iran deal will slip quietly into the sunset
I agree with you 100%.Quote:
No your republican politicians, didn't you allow the Israeli PM to address your congress? In the middle of your negotiations with Iran? What message did that send? That the american government is whiped by a bunch of jewish political contributions. I have another name for it but the editor would edit it out.
I remember repubs doing the same thing to King Reagan back in the day, when he was talking to Gorby, Nixon too, with China. Everything Obama does is a disaster according to repubs anyway so no surprise they holler long and hard yet again.
Netty is a crybaby, with hundreds of Nukes himself, and while NO ONE trusts Iran, repubs and Netty want NO constraints on the country that's already told him and the US, screw you guys for decades, so it's safe to say the repub/Netty way has gained NOTHING over years.
To even think we should go back to that strategy, is an even worse deal than Obama's by far.
And they have waged war against the US since 1979 .There are thousands of US deaths and 10s of thousands injured and maimed directly from Iranian Qod forces and their many surrogates . Stop making excuses for them . We were justified in turning the whole country into a glass desert many times since 1979 .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Proof?Quote:
10s of thousands injured and maimed directly from Iranian Qod forces
Thousands of US deaths, this is drawing a long bow Tom, if your government believed that you would have been at war with Iran years ago
you guys ignore the news even when it comes from one of your favorite sources . Geeze ;this is old information known since 2006 when US troops were taking some of the highest casualties on the Iraq war. Iran was providing their surrogates in Iraq with shaped plate armor penetrating EFPs . The bulk of US casualties in Iraq were from road side bombs that Iran provided.
EXCLUSIVE: Iraq Weapons -- Made in Iran? - ABC News
American forces also did battle with Shiite militias directly backed by Iran during the height of the war. The Iranian leader Quds Force, Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, led much of the militias’ campaign against United States forces .
The Iranians ,through their surrogates in Lebanon killed 241 US servicemen in Beirut .
The Iranians were directly responsible for the Kobar Towers bombing that killed 19 US servicemen. The 1983 bombing of the US embassy in Kuwait was directly linked to Iran .The 1984 hijacking of TWA 847 that killed . U.S. Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem was conducted by Iranian sponsored terrorists .
Yes Tom but it seems an american death in a far away place doesn't have the same value as a death in New York otherwise the avengers would have not only attacked Iraq they would have carried on to Iran. Your problem is you can't fight in three theatres at once. If your government believed they were being attacked by Iran then they should have sent a few cruise missles, at least, to Teheran. I expect you knew this would bring Russia in and you wanted to avoid that prospect. No, you reserved your best efforts for places where you had, on paper at least, numerical superiority, and of course, you didn't want to cut off oil supplies in the Gulf otherwise your allies would be directly threatened. Those american lives were expendiable, sorry to tell you that, but no other conclusion can be drawn but you allowed that the tail on the tiger to be twisted and all this crap about Iran and nuclear weapons was payback
And how did all that Iranian aggression workout for King Reagan, and Pappy Bush?
all I can speak to is my policy ideas . I don't agree with the current adm that dismisses these obvious attacks on US sovereignty and American troops .I don't agree with Bush when he got gun shy after properly identifying the 12ers as part of an axis of evil .He was 3-3 on that call btw . But he got soft when the going got tough. The fact remains that Iran has waged war against the US and the only thing we did reciprocally was the sanctions . And now the emperor is giving that option up with nothing in return .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The reality of US electoral cycles and your enemies don't suffer from this drawback
Perhaps it is that he believes you can no longer fight a war for ever. Ten years of war has crippled you as far as capability goes, these are no longer the days you can fight a hundred years war and the armies of Asia are huge so you cannot fight them on their own territory, Even Korea should have taught you that lesson but you had to learn it over again in Vietnam. It is good you are leaving Afghanistan
The Nuclear deterent has only deterred Russia it hasn't deterred these other nations from twisting your tail because they know you are not going to use the bomb except as a last resort
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:50 PM. |