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Originally Posted by talaniman

Back in the day when Republicans actually wanted to solve problems I had my heroes, McCain, Hatch, Lugar, actually there were a few who were very thoughtful and pragmatic. The ones that are replacing them are just rubber necks with no clue about what they are doing, I mean NONE, and have but one agenda, to do as they are told by the powers that be. Not the Tea Party, as many think, but the monied people in the background who have subverted the right wing and conservatives, and scare the hell out of them.

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Hi Tal,

You must have been listening to the John Saul lectures

Quote Saul:

The neo-conservatives who are closely linked to the neo-corporatists, are rather different. The claim to be conservative, when everything they stand for is a rejection of conservatism. The claim to present an alternative social model, when they are little more than courtiers of the corporatist movement. Their agitation is filled with the bitterness and cynicism typical of courtiers who scramble for crumbs at the banquet table of real power, but are always denied a proper chair.

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Socialist societies can do that!

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Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

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Back in the day when Republicans actually wanted to solve problems I had my heroes, McCain, Hatch, Lugar, actually there were a few who were very thoughtful and pragmatic.

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Yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

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Hi Tom,

Good point. Saul forget to add neo-socialists to his quote.


Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Tal,

You must have been listening to the John Saul lectures

Quote Saul:

The neo-conservatives who are closely linked to the neo-corporatists, are rather different. The claim to be conservative, when everything they stand for is a rejection of conservatism. The claim to present an alternative social model, when they are little more than courtiers of the corporatist movement. Their agitation is filled with the bitterness and cynicism typical of courtiers who scramble for crumbs at the banquet table of real power, but are always denied a proper chair.

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Read the books but never heard the lectures, but its not hard to see what Rove, Limbaugh, Norquist, and Army are really about, MONEY/POWER, CONTROL. And its all based in scaring people of low information.

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QUOTE by tomder
Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

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Socialist, or democratic, there are no nations that can stand on their own. All depend on the resources for sale by other nations. We sell them treasury bonds, they sell us stuff.

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yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.

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He became irrelevant when he chose Palin as a running mate.

Hello again, TUT:

Did I mention crony capitalism?? THIS guy doesn't have to compete. He has friends in high places...

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, TUT:

Did I mention crony capitalism??? THIS guy doesn't have to compete. He has friends in high places...

excon

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Hi Ex,

I think you did.

I don't want to sound too much like Saul, but I think we are all courtiers of the corporate benevolent benefactors (left and right).

By granting corporations more power the left and right believes their power will increase accordingly. However, our power base was eroded once SCOTUS decided that interest groups are really economic interest groups.

As politicians the only way we can gain more crumbs is to appease the real arbitrators of power. I think we are bitter and cynical because they only throw a few more crumbs and then inquire of the political and legal systems as to whether they can have more power in return. We are mesmerized by the ideology.

Believe it or not this is not a criticism of corporations. Corporations will do what is necessary to gain maximum benefit. As a shareholder I would be disappointed if they didn't.

Corporations are not individuals. They don't get bitter and cynical with politics- only real people can do this. Corporations will side with what ever politician will realize the most benefit. Hopefully a few more crumbs will come our way.

Tut

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Indeed socialist countries need a beggar thy neighbor policy because their economic policies can't stand on their own.

yeah I bet you had a 'McCain for President' placard on your front lawn.

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I can hear the band playing now, it is playing the Colonel Bogie March it is probably unfamiliar to you but some words sung to its tune go Bullshlt, Bullshlt, it's all the band could play, they played it night and day

Hi Clete,

Thanks for the insight. I think I can now see where Tom's comments are directed. The penny drops for me.

Tut

And with those comments it's clear that there is nothing else to contribute to the debate . See you .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and with those comments it's clear that there is nothing else to contribute to the debate . see ya .

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Hi Tom,

My apologies.

Your comment was in relation to socialistic countries. But you didn't refer to the countries.

My insight the belief on my part that I had worked out the country you were talking about.

I can assure you that my comment was not a suggest in any way that your comments are BS. This was never my intention and never will be.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Tut

No I did Tut, it's OK Tom you can spit the dummy, take your bat and ball, and go home

Sometimes you just have to call it how you see it

Seems the G8 summit at Camp David is turning the conversation from just austerity to investments in light of elections in Greece, Spain, and Germany. It's a start.

Hello tal:

Here's the crazy thing... Europe is having trouble... Our right wingers say it's because they spent too much, and that's where we're headed. I say it's because the government cut the people off at the knees, and that's where we're headed..

Seems like somebody should be able to figure out exactly WHAT is going on. No?

excon

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Seems the G8 summit at Camp David is turning the conversation from just austerity to investments in light of elections in Greece, Spain, and Germany. Its a start.

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Apparently Obama's vision for the G8 was to pander to women. He doesn't do anything without putting himself first.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Apparently Obama's vision for the G8 was to pander to women. He doesn't do anything without putting himself first.

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WHAAAAA? Explain that one or have a Starbucks on me!

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tal:

Here's the crazy thing... Europe is having trouble... Our right wingers say it's because they spent too much, and that's where we're headed. I say it's because the government cut the people off at the knees, and that's where we're headed..

Seems like somebody should be able to figure out exactly WHAT is going on. No?

excon

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What's goining on ex is the IMF got loose again they have only one agenda gut government spending

It's the same here Clete, big banks want to implement more of what we call trickle down economics, which requires them to make the rules and the government being to weak to do anything about it. Europeans have never been really exposed to this type of corporate, and economic coup before, and its wrecking havoc.

The European Stabilization Mechanism, or How the Goldman Vampire Squid Just Captured Europe | NationofChange

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The Goldman Sachs coup that failed in America has nearly succeeded in Europe—a permanent, irrevocable, unchallengeable bailout for the banks underwritten by the taxpayers.

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European conservatives are no different than American conservatives, they hate governments of the people, and love the bankers of the wealthy.

Very Interesting article Tal but I found an error in it and if there is one error there will be more. The error refers to the Commonwealth Bank as a state owned bank

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This is not a new idea but has been used historically to very good effect, e.g. in Australia through the Commonwealth Bank of Australia

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The reserve bank in Australia is the Reserve Bank of Australia, the Commonwealth Bank, a one time government asset put in place in the great depression due to bank failures, was privatised years ago

That's no error though Clete, as this bank has morphed into what we have here in the states a private super big financial institute(S). The reference was to what the Europeans could model their state banks on the way Australia and Canada has done over the years.

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Alternatively, Eurozone governments could re-establish their economic sovereignty by reviving their publicly owned central banks and using them to issue the credit of the nation for the benefit of the nation, effectively interest-free. This is not a new idea but has been used historically to very good effect, e.g. in Australia through the Commonwealth Bank of Australia and in Canada through the Bank of Canada.

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Put simply, a state bank would let the Greeks, Spanish, and others leverage its own debt, without the strings of other banks and in the case of the Greeks specifically, a much lower interest rate (18% currently to 4 or 5%), refinancing the debt options, local private investments, bond issuance and best of all the formation of a Greek Federal reserve to value its own currency on the open market.

Most nations have done this, even some Eurozone nations and had the greeks coat been pulled long ago, we wouldn't even be talking of their debt, or collapse, so the question is why weren't they, and why are they not now?

My guess its those high monthly, yearly revenue streams that greek debts bring some as they extract whatever wealth they can before anybody figures it out. Its simple really, poor nations have to do what other nations have done to become stable, and prosperous, and meet the challenges of globalization. Then no outside entity could impose austerity, and the poverty that comes with it.

Tal the Commonwealth Bank was originally a savings bank. However there was never a suggestion of loans made at low interest. Today that bank is very strong in the commercial and residential sectors and is very large even by world standards. It is not an instrument of government policy. Australia has had a long period of high interest rates, much higher than in US and Europe, its economy has thrived without government contrivence to force down interest rates. One of the reasons your economy is slow to recover is lack of incentive for investment caused by low interest rates. Greece on the other hand is below junk bond status and unlikely to attract investment, it therefore needs assistence at government level