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Originally Posted by excon

they were written because they realized that passing time DOES alter context.

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Now if San Francisco decided to crack down on illegals I can see your point.

Speaking about Ranchers defending their property rights...

A group of 16 illegal aliens are suing rancher Roger Barnett for $32 million because he allegedly violated their "civil rights " when he stopped them from crossing over the border on his property at gun point ,and turning them over to local authorities .

Barnett began rounding up illegals in 1998 and turning them over to the authorities after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

Since then he has personally stopped 12,000 illegals from crossing his property .

A District Judge ,the skunk John Roll ruled that Barnett's request to drop the charges should be denied because there was sufficient evidence in the illegal's case to present before a jury . Barnett's lawyer argued that illegals don't have the same rights as citizens . I agree.

In a 2002 interview with the Washington Times Barnett said
"This is my land. I´m the victim here," ... "When someone´s home and loved ones are in jeopardy and the government seemingly can´t do anything about it, I feel justified in taking matters into my own hands. And I always watch my back."

When the state breaks the compact between citizens and the state to provide them security it is the right of the citizen to protect home ,family and property from a foreign invasion or any criminal attempt on same.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

When the state breaks the compact between citizens and the state to provide them security it is the right of the citizen to protect home ,family and property from a foreign invasion or any criminal attempt on same.

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Hello tom:

I don't disagree at all... Except for your characterization of illegal immigrants. You think they're here to steal your money and sell drugs. I think they're here to pick your lettuce.

If Arizona passed an immigration law based on the FACTS as they actually ARE, instead of FEAR, I wouldn't oppose it. But, you guys ain't got it right yet.

excon

They isn't here to just pick lettuce .

This is the equivalent of outsourcing . But instead of moving the jobs to the cheap labor ,this is bringing the cheap labor in. It is still exploitive and even worse ;it drives wages down here and denies real jobs to citizens.

It never ceases to amaze me how this is justified by the same people who decry slave labor overseas .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It never ceases to amaze me how this is justified by the same people who decry slave labor overseas .

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Hello again, tom:

I don't decry those things. I don't believe in a minimum wage either, because it increases unemployment instead of helping the poor. I'm a market wage kind of guy.

But, even IF the wages paid to your lettuce pickers were LESS than market rates, they're HEAPS more than the market wages in Mexico, where the money is going to be spent. By that barometer, they're substantially OVERPAID. They're getting wealthy picking our grapes.

So, no. I don't feel sorry for 'em - except for the fact that you want to throw 'em out.

excon

What you want is cheap grapes off the back of exploited workers. But it isn't just produce ,it is every industry they infiltrate... And that is what increases the unemployment rate of the poor. Illegals do take jobs away from unskilled American workers. That is undeniable.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Illegals do take jobs away from unskilled American workers. That is undeniable. .

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Hello again, tom:

It IS undeniable. But, that's the free market at work. I thought, as a dedicated right winger, you'd like that.

By the way, have you ever thought about going after the employers? Why only the brown skinned people?

excon

Why hasn't the Governor, the state AG, or the legislature gone after the employers? Hmmmm!

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

It IS undeniable. But, that's the free market at work. I thought, as a dedicated right winger, you'd like that.

By the way, have you ever thought about going after the employers?? Why only the brown skinned people?

excon

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There's that word again, free, used to justify every thing from exploitation to murder.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

This problem needs some lateral thinking, you already have NAFTA so be like Europe and issue a North American citizenship and secure the border south of Mexico and in Canadian ports and allow free access within. Without citzenship, no work, no permanent accommodation. Everyone not entitled to citizensship goes home. Build up your industries within and stop the bleed to China. You conquered Mexico once why you didn't keep it then is beyond me.

As to these other issues these are moral issues

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I am going to go with no thanks--It's bad enough we seem to be following in the footsteps of some of europes bad ideas, I don't think we need anymore.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

Spoken like a true believer. Any law, however, that targets illegal aliens for deportation WITHOUT addressing the circumstances of their arrival, which is that we INVITED them, isn't reasonable at all. Laws must be made in CONTEXT.

In fact, as I've mentioned before, the doctrine of ESTOPPEL makes the Arizona law illegal on its face:

"Estoppel by laches precludes a party from bringing an action when the party knowingly failed to claim or enforce a legal right at the proper time. This doctrine is closely related to the concept of statutes of limitations, except that statutes of limitations set specific time limits for legal actions, whereas under Laches, generally there is no prescribed time that courts consider "proper." A defendant seeking the protection of laches must demonstrate that the plaintiff's inaction, Misrepresentation, or silence prejudiced the defendant or induced the defendant to change positions for the worse."

excon

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That is as good a definition of latches as I have seen... Though I don't think it's the issue in this particular law.

The main issue in the Arizona law is that the Congress has plenary power over the area of alienage and all state laws will be immediately preempted. The politicians in Arizona knew that, they made the law to 1) play to their base and 2) to try and force the administration to enforce the laws already on the books.

I see this has fallen into the same democrat v republican talking point back and forth that usually stalemates these discussions. Someday people will look beyond the party line and realize its not us (dem or rep) against them (republcans or dems) but us (the people) against them (the politicians who are beholding to the money handlers of both parties).

[QUOTE=tomder55;2355690]speaking about Ranchers defending their property rights...

A group of 16 illegal aliens are suing rancher Roger Barnett for $32 million because he allegedly violated their "civil rights " when he stopped them from crossing over the border on his property at gun point ,and turning them over to local authorities .

Barnett began rounding up illegals in 1998 and turning them over to the authorities after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

Since then he has personally stopped 12,000 illegals from crossing his property .

A District Judge ,the skunk John Roll ruled that Barnett's request to drop the charges should be denied because there was sufficient evidence in the illegal's case to present before a jury . Barnett's lawyer argued that illegals don't have the same rights as citizens . I agree.

But the Supreme Court doesn't so you lose, they get rights the min their feet hit the US side. Now, that is a broad statement and not entirely acurate to the Courts long and obtuse holding, but it essentially makes the point. (not saying I agree with the court either).

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Why hasn't the Governor, the state AG, or the legislature gone after the employers?? Hmmmm!

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Simple, where do you think they get their campaign contributions from? Though, I am sure you knew that already.

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Originally Posted by adthern

I am gonna go with no thanks--It's bad enough we seem to be folowing in the footsteps of some of europes bad ideas, I don't think we need anymore.

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So what you are saying is you are content with your own bad ideas, which you happily export to the rest of the world, just sharing the misery around. But what goes around, comes around and now you are drowning in your own misery of inadequate regulation, inadequate enforcement and just plain lazy.
The not made here syndrome works for a while until you realise that sometimes others have workable ideas

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

It IS undeniable. But, that's the free market at work. I thought, as a dedicated right winger, you'd like that.

By the way, have you ever thought about going after the employers? Why only the brown skinned people?

Excon

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I have been very clear about my position on the employers who knowingly hire them. They are as criminal as the illegals . Both need to be held to the rule of law.

That is definitely not the free market unless you believe the free market operates in a lawless environment . But to have a civil society you need enforceable rules. Illegal aliens in the market place distort the market place.

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Why only the brown skinned people?

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You really don't have a clue . I absorb these snipes constantly ,but they hold no weight. I live my life surrounded by, and working closely with people of all colors. This is the last time I'll respond to this implication that race is a determining factor in the positions I take.

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Illegal aliens in the market place distort the market place.

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More than banks, oil companies, insurance companies, drug companies and private contractors?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

More than banks, oil companies, insurance companies, drug companies and private contractors?

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to have a civil society you need enforceable rules.

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That applies to all industry .But yes ;from the perspective of the unskilled laborer ,indeed the illegals distort the market place much more .There are thousands of American workers who have lost opportunities because they have been priced out of the market in their own country by illegals (mostly minority workers )

banks, oil companies, insurance companies, drug companies All provide hundreds of thousand of real jobs in this country... as do the contractors who live within the rule of law and find that their business suffers due to the illegal activity of the contractors who exploit illegal aliens .

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to have a civil society you need enforceable rules.

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Now I get it. Thanks. Illegals should give more money to either change the rules, or hire a lobby to buy a politician. That makes perfect sense.

They already have a lobby .It's called Democrat politicians who could care less about the workers rights they claim to support ;and are more interested in bringing in indentured servants for their political base ;who they seduce with the promises of the nanny state.
What is really sad was that at one time liberal politicians like Walter Mondale and Ralph Abernathy walked arm in arm with Cesar Chavez protesting the use of illegal aliens employed by ranchers to break the UFWA . Back then the Democrats cared about American workers. Now ,beyond paying lip service and sleeping with the corrupt labor union management ;they couldn't give a sh*t about the plight of the legal labor force.

Here is the Chavez testimony to Congress in 1979 :

“When the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization Service has looked the other way and assisted in the Strikebreaking. I do not remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration service has removed strikebreakers. … The employers use professional smugglers to recruit and transport human contraband across the Mexican border for the specific act of strikebreaking …”

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Originally Posted by excon

If Arizona passed an immigration law based on the FACTS as they actually ARE, instead of FEAR, I wouldn't oppose it. But, you guys ain't got it right yet.

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Isn't that how you should feel about Obamacare?