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  • Jun 1, 2022, 07:58 PM
    Wondergirl
    Or hysterical!
  • Jun 2, 2022, 02:20 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...post-right.png
    So the shooter walks unobstructed into an unlocked door of the school .



    ...that was propped open (to catch a breeze?)
    Easily solved by having a security system that identifies when a door is opened unauthorized. This is the same argument used against border control .If there is the slightest possibility that a system can be breached then it should not be tried . That is nonsense and a symptom of people who strive for utopia .Perfect is an illusion . Strive for good enough.

    It gives me no pleasure in suggesting that schools should be hardened . But I'd rather that than defenseless kids becoming prey to demented people bent on murder . Hardening schools ,armed school employees is a deterrent .

    The marauders look for vulnerable targets . That is why they attack schools in so called "gun free zones " rather than police stations .Mass shooters don't pick schools because they want to engage in a fair fight .They pick schools because they are the easiest targets . When a person bent on murder sees a sign that says the school is a gun free zone it is an open invitation to the person .

    Maybe if more incidents like this were sensational headlines for days people would understand the effectiveness of having deterrence .

    'Heroic' resource officer hailed for stopping armed teen at high school, saving lives - ABC News (go.com)



    Great Mills High School Shooting: Injuries Reported In Maryland Shooting : The Two-Way : NPR

    Doors in schools should only be opened from the inside and used mostly for emergency evacuation .Access to the school should only be through an armed guarded entrance. It is that simple . Spare me the talk about the rare times that system may be breached .
  • Jun 2, 2022, 03:06 AM
    tomder55
    Let's simplify it . Fatherlessness is by far the biggest contributor to social ills in America. The rise in fatherlessness is an unintended or intended natural outcome of progressive social policies .

    Minimal or no father involvement, whether due to divorce, death, or imprisonment, is common to Adam Lanza, Elliott Rodgers, Dylan Roof and Stephen Paddock.
    In the case of 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz, he was adopted at birth. His adoptive dad died when Nikolas was much younger, and doubtless the challenges of this fatherlessness was compounded by the death of his adoptive mom three and a half months ago.
    The rate of mass shootings has tripled since 2011. We blame guns, violence in the media, violence in video games, and poor family values. Each is a plausible player. But our daughters live in the same homes, with the same access to the same guns, video games, and media, and are raised with the same family values. Our daughters are not killing. Our sons are.
    But boys with significant father involvement are not doing these shootings. Without dads as role models, boys’ testosterone is not well channeled. The boy experiences a sense of purposelessness, a lack of boundary enforcement, rudderlessness, and often withdraws into video games and video porn. At worst, when boys’ testosterone is not well-channeled by an involved dad, boys become among the world’s most destructive forces. When boys’ testosterone is well channeled by an involved dad, boys become among the world’s most constructive forces. ('The Boy Crisis Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It ' by Warren Farrell and John Gray)

    Farrell and Gray identify 4 crises that boys face: education, physical health,economic health, mental health .All 4 problems can be traced to a lack of a father in their lives .
    Father Absence Statistics (fatherhood.org)

    It is a problem for girls too . 85% of those incarcerated grew up in fatherless homes . But it seems to have a greater impact on boys . Before age 9, boys and girls commit suicide equally," By age 10 to 14, it is 2x the amount for boys. Between 15 and 19, it is 4x times the amount, and by ages 18 to 24, it is6x the amount according to Ferrell.

    To make it even worse ,most teachers are females so the boys are not getting the male role model outside of school .For some they find the male role model in gangs they join. For some it is in a fantasy world of violent video games .
  • Jun 2, 2022, 06:12 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    It is a problem for girls too . 85% of those incarcerated grew up in fatherless homes . But it seems to have a greater impact on boys . Before age 9, boys and girls commit suicide equally," By age 10 to 14, it is 2x the amount for boys. Between 15 and 19, it is 4x times the amount, and by ages 18 to 24, it is6x the amount according to Ferrell.

    To make it even worse ,most teachers are females so the boys are not getting the male role model outside of school .For some they find the male role model in gangs they join. For some it is in a fantasy world of violent video games .
    Pretty compelling evidence for those willing to be unbiased in their evaluation of it.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 08:35 AM
    Wondergirl
    Terrific post, tomder! And I totally agree about gangs and that boys/young men join them, looking for father figures to emulate.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:24 AM
    jlisenbe
    How about this?
    Quote:

    Easily solved by having a security system that identifies when a door is opened unauthorized. This is the same argument used against border control .If there is the slightest possibility that a system can be breached then it should not be tried . That is nonsense and a symptom of people who strive for utopia .Perfect is an illusion . Strive for good enough.

    It gives me no pleasure in suggesting that schools should be hardened . But I'd rather that than defenseless kids becoming prey to demented people bent on murder . Hardening schools ,armed school employees is a deterrent .
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:32 AM
    Wondergirl
    Ted Cruz firmly maintains that every grade school should have only one entrance/exit door. Like me, do you see a problem with that?

    How many mass murders have been committed by females? (Yes, I know what you're going to say, JL.)
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:36 AM
    jlisenbe
    But how about the question I just asked about Tom's comments on school security? Are you on board for that? I asked because several days ago you described it as, "impossible".

    I don't think one entry/exit door is practicable, but a lot can be done in that regard. It would be especially difficult in case of a fire, and also with older buildings. With new construction it could be possible.

    You would first have to define what a "female" is. Ask Judge Jackson for help with that.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:52 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    But how about the question I just asked about Tom's comments on school security? Are you on board for that? I asked because several days ago you described it as, "impossible".

    Our doors to the outside had alarms on them that would blare when the doors were opened and that could be turned off/deactivated by personnel who knew the code.
    Quote:

    I don't think one entry/exit door is practicable, but a lot can be done in that regard. It would be especially difficult in case of a fire, and also with older buildings. With new construction it could be possible.
    Good luck getting 250 students out of a burning two-story school that has only one door to the outside..
    Quote:

    You would first have to define what a "female" is. Ask Judge Jackson for help with that.
    As I said in Post #167...
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:56 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Remind me.
    I just did. But to be clear, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...19#post3881019

    Quote:

    As I said in Post #167...
    Conservatives tend to know the definition. It's liberals who struggle with it.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 09:59 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I just did. But to be clear, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...19#post3881019

    Conservatives tend to know the definition. It's liberals who struggle with it.

    I was still working on my post that you too quickly responded to. Please go back and read what I had added.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 10:20 AM
    jlisenbe
    Nah. You said it was impossible to make them as secure as possible. Live with it.

    Tom's comment is entirely appropriate.

    Quote:

    This is the same argument used against border control .If there is the slightest possibility that a system can be breached then it should not be tried . That is nonsense and a symptom of people who strive for utopia .Perfect is an illusion . Strive for good enough.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 11:52 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Nah. You said it was impossible to make them as secure as possible. Live with it.

    A student comes to school with a loaded handgun. School is no longer secure.
  • Jun 2, 2022, 12:42 PM
    jlisenbe
    For the third time.

    Quote:

    Perfect is an illusion . Strive for good enough.
    I put it this way. "Make our schools as secure as possible." I lock my house at night, but a determined crook could get in. It would still be stupid for me to not lock my doors. Why? "Perfect is an illusion."
  • Jun 2, 2022, 01:58 PM
    tomder55
    Tell me the mass shooting incident where students are subject to routine or even random metal detector screening. Yes it is not perfect . NYC has thousands of students randomly going through detectors . Weapons have been found , The utopia crowd would argue that the stats show that only 1 in some 23,000 scans produces a weapon. In other words ,it works because of the deterrence value.

    4.5 billion people travel by air world wide annually .After 9-11 ,enhanced screening was deployed . It was a pain in the a$$ causing long screening lines . Now going through the same screening at the airport causes small delays at best .Some people have either accidently or intentionally attempted to bring weapons on planes . For all we know some have made it on planes . But ;because of the security deployed not one plane has been brought down by a terrorist hijacking since. Passengers almost universally accept the inconvenience . I hope we are not saying the lives of children at school are less valuable than airline passengers .
  • Jun 3, 2022, 10:22 AM
    Wondergirl
    Two letters to the editor in today's Tribune --

    1. Sources of children’s distress

    "Dr. Sabreen Akhter writes a moving account in the May 30 paper about the work she does in her emergency room trying to help distressed kids (“I see distressed kids come into my ER. I wonder about their paths — and my son’s.”). At the end of the op-ed, she offers some reasons for this apparent epidemic of distress, such as guns, racism and mental health disinvestment. While not discounting these, I would offer a few others: the many evils of social media, the crisis in the American family (far too many one-parent households), the decline of religion, the disappearance of what are often called societal guardrails (norms, rules of behavior), and a dramatic loss of faith in institutions and leaders.

    To put it another way, one has a sense that society is, in too many ways, coming apart. This affects all of us, of course, but especially kids."

    2. One solution to gun problem

    "I guess I’m what you’d call a gun guy. I have raised all my children around guns and with more morals than the government. I can’t stop the senseless murders, and I don’t believe war is a solution to any problem. I don’t have an answer for that, but what I do have is a good idea that my gun friends and I have all talked about, so here it is. My solution to part of the gun problem is simple. All ammunition should be sold only through the local police department, and proper identification and a hand scan would be needed to purchase. The police would not add fees or taxes to the manufacturer’s asking price. No municipalities could add a dollar to the price. Ammunition could not be taxed.

    Only a criminal would worry about a hand scan. If somebody gives you that as a reason, look twice.

    I would also laser-engrave a number on each casing, so you can tell where they came from.

    Honest hunters and shooters don’t worry about stuff like that."
  • Jun 3, 2022, 10:43 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    To put it another way, one has a sense that society is, in too many ways, coming apart. This affects all of us, of course, but especially kids."
    Sadly true. One need look no further than abortion. "Kid's an inconvenience, so kill it and let's move on." Thus we have over 900,000 kids a year whose lives are snuffed out.

    The ammo idea is not good. Reloads would be an easy way around that. Besides, adding yet another layer of likely inefficient and certainly costly bureaucracy is not the answer. It would be just the first step in the Swiss "solution".
  • Jun 3, 2022, 10:55 AM
    Wondergirl
    Thanks, JL. I was hoping you would comment.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 12:18 PM
    jlisenbe
    Since the other liberal dems have fled the scene, then your options for replies are pretty limited.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 12:23 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Since the other liberal dems have fled the scene, then your options for replies are pretty limited.

    I'm a Republican. And I especially wanted to read your opinion about the ammo ideas. I hope Tom weighs in too.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 12:41 PM
    jlisenbe
    Voting liberal dem about 99% of the time makes you a liberal dem.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 12:44 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Voting liberal dem about 99% of the time makes you a liberal dem.

    How do you know what I vote?
  • Jun 3, 2022, 01:17 PM
    jlisenbe
    By who you support on this site.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 01:53 PM
    Wondergirl
    I vote for a person, not a political party.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 01:57 PM
    jlisenbe
    Well...most people vote for persons since you have very little alternative.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 02:09 PM
    Wondergirl
    No, many vote a straight party ticket, not for specific individuals who are running.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 03:45 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    2. One solution to gun problem

    "I guess I’m what you’d call a gun guy. I have raised all my children around guns and with more morals than the government. I can’t stop the senseless murders, and I don’t believe war is a solution to any problem. I don’t have an answer for that, but what I do have is a good idea that my gun friends and I have all talked about, so here it is. My solution to part of the gun problem is simple. All ammunition should be sold only through the local police department, and proper identification and a hand scan would be needed to purchase. The police would not add fees or taxes to the manufacturer’s asking price. No municipalities could add a dollar to the price. Ammunition could not be taxed.

    Only a criminal would worry about a hand scan. If somebody gives you that as a reason, look twice.

    I would also laser-engrave a number on each casing, so you can tell where they came from.

    Honest hunters and shooters don’t worry about stuff like that."


    Yeah honest hunters should be ok with having their constitutional rights abridged by the government . It is the same bogus argument that says if people have nothing to hide then why are they concerned about illegal police surveillance ?

    The rest of the suggestion comes down to prohibition arguments. Be it booze drugs guns ,illegal alternatives are always available . And I'll say it clear. People who support open borders should not complain about illegal weapons and drugs.

    This is what I think . Gun supporters already make a serious concession to the gun control crowd by not objecting to gun registration . The biggest reason for the 2nd amendment was to prevent government from disarming Americans . Having a government database of gun owners is a serious step in favor of the government that would attempt disarming the populace.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 03:49 PM
    Wondergirl
    But isn't it supposed to be the militia members who have the guns, not just anybody? Not everyone is a militia member.
  • Jun 3, 2022, 04:05 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    People who support open borders should not complain about illegal weapons and drugs.
    Exactly correct.
    Quote:

    But isn't it supposed to be the militia members who have the guns, not just anybody? Not everyone is a militia member.
    Militias were local, informal groups of citizens who, when needed, would band together for self defense in emergencies. The whole idea rested upon a free and armed citizenry. So no, it is not militia members only who would have the guns since militias, frequently, did not have "members". The founding fathers were very clear on the issue of an armed citizenry.

    “The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

    “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
    “What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
  • Jun 3, 2022, 04:27 PM
    tomder55
    comment # 130 :

    Quote:


    groan !!!

    I have had this discussion a thousand times . The bill of rights are about individual liberties and what the government SHALL NOT do . Period

    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason,)

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” (Thomas Jefferson )

    Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” (Tench Coxe)

    “Americans have the right and advantage of being armed ― unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” (James Madison)

    The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”(Joseph Story)

  • Jun 3, 2022, 05:25 PM
    jlisenbe
    It is hard to get people to pay attention.
  • Jun 4, 2022, 02:42 AM
    tomder55
    Tench Coxe was a delegate to the convention from PA. He said in the quote provided that the weapons referred to by the Second Amendment comprised “every other terrible implement of the soldier.” This flies in the face of Clueless' misquote of Scalia Thursday night . Clueless misquote was "It was Justice Scalia who wrote, and I quote: ‘Like most rights, the right Second Amendment — the rights granted by the Second Amendment are not unlimited.’ Not unlimited. It never has been.”

    Scalia's quote from the Heller decision was “the right secured by the Second Amendment.

    Scalia was saying correctly that the only way the people could secure their rights is by the right to bear arms .It is not secured by the good faith of the government because so often it is government that tries to take away liberty .


    Clueless also falsely claims that the gun industry is the only one that has liability protection. More nonsense. Can you sue GM if a drunk driver plows into you while driving a Chevy ? Of course not because it is the action of the person driving the car that is responsible and not the car manufacturer.
  • Jun 4, 2022, 12:19 PM
    jlisenbe
    Contrary to what many might think, violent crime has fallen dramatically since 1990. The population has increased by about 30% since then, but murders, aggravated assault, and violent crime in general are down dramatically.

    https://www.disastercenter.com/crime...more%20rows%20
  • Jun 4, 2022, 02:12 PM
    Wondergirl
    https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...OQ&oe=629FE495
  • Jun 4, 2022, 02:21 PM
    jlisenbe
    It is hard to get people to pay attention.

    The vast, vast, vast majority of those deaths were from handguns. Banning so called "assault weapons" will do practically nothing to make a dent in that number. So what do you propose we do?
  • Jun 4, 2022, 05:42 PM
    tomder55
    ammonium nitrate is simple chemistry. react ammonia with nitric acid in water and then evaporate the water. The caveat is that it is very dangerous to make it. btw common cold packs you buy in the store contain ammonium nitrate and or urea; another chemical used in explosives .
  • Jun 4, 2022, 05:47 PM
    tomder55
    Alert warns of cold packs used for explosives - Emergency Medical Services (virginia.gov)
  • Jun 4, 2022, 05:58 PM
    tomder55
    https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...yQ&oe=62A16C88
  • Jun 4, 2022, 07:41 PM
    jlisenbe
    We wouldn't have modern agriculture without ammonium nitrate. It is used by the millions of tons every year. Farmers used to mix it with fuel oil to make a sort of "farmers dynamite". When I was taking freshman chem in college, my textbook had the directions for making the stuff. That's how innocent a time we lived in. It was 1972.

    I'd still love to know what liberal dems (or liberal repubs) propose to do in order to make any really serious difference in gun violence. A ban on the sale of "assault weapons" will do very little.
  • Jun 5, 2022, 01:35 AM
    tomder55
    I'll give another history example, as I am burdened by history.

    The semi-automatic rifle .......1907 the Winchester Model 1907 is born ;a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with a detachable, high capacity magazine.

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/med...552&height=123
    Yes it looks like a rifle but acted very much like the modern day AR brand rifles. They could be purchased in a Sears Catalogue. American consumers were using them while the US military was still being issued bolt action single shot rifles . T
    (fast-firing Winchesters dated back to 1866)

    The biggest difference between this and today's rifles is the black plastic stock which makes todays rifles much lighter .
    It was not an assault weapon or a weapon of war until the US Army adopted it and converted it to full automatic 40 years after it had already been safely owned by civilian .

    What has changed since then is the values of people that we have already discussed many times. There is where the fix is needed .

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