I'm sorry your life is so busy and complicated that you don't have time to read the excerpts I c/p and watch the videos I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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I'm sorry your life is so busy and complicated that you don't have time to read the excerpts I c/p and watch the videos I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I’m sorry that you cannot post a single supporting quote from the articles you posted. I read through them and, evidently like you, could find nothing supporting your allegations other than some biased opinions. Biased opinions, as you well know, amount to practically nothing.
But I did. The paragraphs posted are from the links, which include quotes from Trump. Even a video of the tv watching of the insurrection plus music playing (with Ivanka dancing in place and her brother talking to the camera that was panning the tv watchers).
I posted, "You presented nothing to show that Trump was gleefully watching the demonstration on 1/6. You presented nothing to show that Trump encouraged anyone to carry out an insurrection."
You referred to your previous post which I copied below. Nothing there supports to two ideas above. Nothing.
President Donald Trump took several hours to respond to the insurrection at the Capitol last Wednesday despite numerous pleas from staff, advisors, and members of his family.
A new report from The Washington Post says Trump was too busy watching the insurrection unfold on TV [FOX News] to do anything to quell it.
"He was hard to reach, and you know why? Because it was live TV. If it's TiVo, he just hits pause and takes the calls," one Trump advisor told The Post.
Sen. Lindsey Graham said Trump was also reluctant to do anything because "he saw these people as allies in his journey and sympathetic to the idea that the election was stolen."
Former White House officials such as Kayleigh McEnany and Pat Cipollone said Trump was holed up in the dining room next to the Oval Office as the attack unfolded. According to Cipollone, who served as White House counsel, images of the violence unfolding were on the screen as Trump watched.
If you want to suggest that Trump should have responded sooner, then we can agree. If you want to suggest that Trump's fiery rhetoric contributed to the 1/6 riot, then I would agree, but you have made three mistakes in my view.
1. You went much too far in suggesting he gleefully watched the whole thing.
2. You went much too far in suggesting he encouraged an insurrection.
3. You have not uttered a single word of criticism towards Pelosi and the D.C. mayor. Tom has posted a great deal that implicates them in being, at the very least, careless and guilty of dereliction of duty. That's the worst part. It makes you appear to be a partisan hack who sees everything through liberal colored glasses. I think that perception is unfortunate.
and here I thought the narrative was that he got into a limo and tried to grab the wheel from the driver who refused to take him to the Capitol.
That was last quarter's narrative. They're working on the new one for next quarter.
Now you know better. The truth is all there for you to see and become informed re the truth. Denial in the face of facts and testimony makes you look foolish.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
If we could only find those elusive facts. Maybe it's something like this. "That is absolute BULLSH*T and you know damn well it is!"Quote:
Denial in the face of facts and testimony makes you look foolish.
That was part of the narrative. President Trump, "I'm the f...ing president. Take me to the Capitol". The Secret Service unknown spokesman denied this happened. That spokesman REFUSED to testify in person!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
and yet the slanted NPR timeline neglected thatQuote:
That was part of the narrative. President Trump, "I'm the f...ing president. Take me to the Capitol".
It also left out the part where Capitol Police assisted in taking down barriers ;opened doors for the protesters ,and took selfies with them .Quote:
Shortly after that, Trump ends his speech.
"We're going to the Capitol," he says. "We're going to try and give them [Republicans] the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country."
Trump returns to the White House. He does not go to the Capitol.
The timeline also neglects to mention the role of FBI informant Ray Epps .Witnesses saw him encouraging people to enter the Capitol on Jan 5 . He was on the FBI list of suspects but was mysteriously removed from it. Epps’ photo was removed from the FBI poster of potential January 6 suspects..The Kangaroo court interviewed him and took his word that he was not an informant or was encouraging protesters to enter the Capitol. But a video of the riot says otherwise. The video shows him in a MAGA hat whispering to protesters . The protesters see through his costume and started chanting "Fed Fed Fed "
Ridiculous. Just another conspiracy so loved by the far right when they have no truth based facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
There is absolutely no evidence to indicate that Epps is a federal agent or that he was working with the government.
Ray Epps is a retired Marine with connections to a far-right anti-government militia group who traveled to Washington, D.C., to attend the "Stop the Steal" rally in support of Trump's false claim that the 2020 election had been stolen.
Epps is a Trump supporter and was listed as the president of the Arizona chapter of the Oath Keepers.
The claim that Epps is an undercover federal agent is based on the fact that Epps had not been arrested. The reason Epps wasn't arrested was not because he was working with the FBI, but because the FBI found he didn't commit a crime.
Below is an excellent neutral link explaining the whole story about Epps and why he became a conspiracy figure.
https://news.yahoo.com/everything-kn...09iEB9XXMNteZ1
The Epps issue is a little complicated. It is true that there is no direct evidence connecting Epps to the FBI, and it could very well be true that he was just another right-wing demonstrator. However, the fact that he was identified early on and yet never arrested is somewhat strange. While he did not himself enter the Capitol, he was a major figure calling for others to do so. Add to that the fact that he has no interest in speaking with the press about the whole episode, and it appears strange. Remember that he was the head of Oath Keepers for several years, a position which would have been ideal for an FBI plant, and the circumstantial evidence becomes worth noting.
The committee interviewed him and asked him if he was a plant. He said no .. end of interview . The compliant press' brilliant take was that he would not have lied because he was under oath. He encourage people to enter the Capitol on Jan 5 and 6 . Then he slithered away .
Initially he was on the FBI list
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2...pjpg&auto=webp
Video shows Ray Epps at initial Capitol breach on Jan. 6 (washingtonpost.com)
The video of him Jan 6 shows him in a camouflage suit and MAGA hat encouraging people to break through the barriers . But yes he doesn't actually participate in the breach. That is why he was in the wanted list . Why was he later excluded when thousands were arrested ?
FALSEQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
(deleted)
You were given the link that explained the entire situation (deleted).
https://news.yahoo.com/everything-kn...09iEB9XXMNteZ1
Sorry, Tomder, I got carried away (my reply #174). I erased the bad part.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Prisoners from the riot wrote a letter complaining that conditions are so bad in their detainment that they are requesting to be transferred to GITMO where prisoners are treated humanely .
The detainees list several issues. The conditions allegedly include no religious services or visitations, "black mold" and "worms" on the jail's walls and in food, abuse by guards, and vaccine requirements for visits and other services. They also say their clothing sent to laundry is returned covered in "brown stains, pubic hair and or reeking of ripe urine." And they say they've lost eyesight and hair because of "malnourishment.
Jan. 6 detainees request transfers to Guantanamo Bay over D.C. jail conditions : NPR
Jan6Gitmo - DocumentCloud
Quick flashback to Epps inciting protesters to storm the Capitol building on Jan 5 . The protesters called him out for being a Fed.
Ray Epps Shouted Down by Crowd as a Fed - Jan 5 Jan 6 - YouTube
I was called out here for suggesting that he was not a true MAGA Trump supporter .
The Slimes called such talk a conspiracy theory.
Jan. 6 Panel Seeks to Debunk Unfounded Theory About F.B.I. Role in Riot - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Epps told the Kangaroo court that the attack on the Capitol made him ill.
Pro-Trump protester Ray Epps told Jan. 6 committee 'crazy' conspiracy theories tore apart his life (nbcnews.com)
The Slimes called him a victim
How Ray Epps Became the Victim of a Jan. 6 Conspiracy Theory - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Epps is suing Fox News for the negative coverage.
Now get this ..... He says Fox News contributed to the DOJ suddenly pivoting and charging him after all.
Fox News sued by Trump supporter Ray Epps over Jan. 6 claims (cnbc.com)Quote:
The relentless attacks by Fox and Mr. Carlson and the resulting political pressure likely resulted in the criminal charges.
full.pdf (nyt.com)
That's right He is now going to be charged 2 1/2 years later Meanwhile there are protesters still in jail uncharged .
So now the compliant press has to pivot. No longer is it an insurrection . It is just a riot. They all got the memo . This is headlines in the last couple of days .
Ray Epps Wants Jury to Decide if Government Used Him to Fuel Capitol Riot (newsweek.com)
Woman accused of attacking police during Capitol riot sentenced to six years in prison | The Hill
Capitol riot suspect arrested near Barack Obama's home indicted on firearms charges | AP News
Articles defending Epps by the compliant press refer to it as a protest ,demonstration ,or rally. Epps was a protester ;a Pro-Trump protester .
January 6 protester Ray Epps says he relives Capitol riot every day | 60 Minutes - CBS News
Donald Trump supporter Ray Epps sues Fox News for defamation - UPI.com
My theory is that the DOJ is charging him to take away the obvious appearance of bias against conservatives and Trump ;and their cover up of the Biden crime family. Once the heat is off ;they will quitely drop it . Epps lawsuit wll continue and will probably end in a settlement making him rich .
All the charges today are BS If Trump is convicted then it will be overturned in the higher courts ,
The political odor around this whole thing is troubling.
I'd like to see them try to prove that Trump did not believe the election was stolen
Jonathan Turley on the Trump Jan 6 indictment
Quote:
This is a free speech-killing indictment. There's no way around it. I write a great deal in academia in the free-speech area and I rarely seen a more chilling filing by the Department of Justice. The question that people have to ask themselves is, when is the price too high? People are obviously enraged, but what is the price too high to bag Donald Trump? This indictment is that prohibitive cost. Meaning, what they are attempting to do is criminalize what they consider to be disinformation.
And I have to tell you, this indictment is really sad moment for me. I hoped that Smith is going to indict on January 6th, that he would find unassailable evidence and unquestioned legal authority. He has neither in this indictment...
This is a speaking indictment but it doesn't say very much. It basically just says that we think Trump is lying that he actually didn't believe this. I can't tell you how faciously ridiculous this claim is. It starts up by saying, of course, you can say false things in the campaign, but then says that Trump knew they were false. Is that the test going forward in terms of criminalizing political speech?
Smith is just not only going to have to just bulldoze through the First Amendment, he's going to have to bulldoze through a line of cases by the Supreme Court...
I think what happened with Representative Goldman is that he looked ridiculous. He looked ridiculous in denying the obvious. Obviously, you're not going to sit at Cafe Milano and ask the vice president to ice-pick a prosecutor in Ukraine wedge as your order breadsticks.
The whole point of the call was to establish the deliverables for Hunter Biden. He could deliver, he was a phone call away from his father. The way influence-peddling occurs is you don't do this by committee, the fact is, you show you have access that things can be done. So the Democrats are really reaching that line with I think particularly the American public, they're not buying it. The polls show they show this is very serious corruption scandal. And indeed it is. It may be the most serious corruption scandal in my lifetime to come out of Washington D.C. and that's saying a lot in this city.
Turley on Trump: "This Is A Free Speech-Killing Indictment," Dems Are Reaching The Line With The American Public | Video | RealClearPolitics
By Smith's legal theory both Al Gore and GW Bush were guilty of election fraud by challenging the 2000 election .In fact any President's speech can now be called a conspiracy to defraud the US by a partisan prosecutor or an politicized DOJ .
1982 SCOTUS ruled in 'Nixon v. Fitzgerald' that the President “is entitled to absolute immunity from damages liability predicated on his official acts.”
Nixon v. Fitzgerald | Oyez
Trump believed there was fraud in the election . He asked his DOJ and State officials to find evidence. He suggested to Pence that since the election was stolen that Pence had the power to overturn the results in the Senate. Smith's whole charge is that Trump really did not believe there was fraud. I'm sure he will get a stacked DC jury to convict . The charges won't stand up in appeal.
I don't think this has much to do with getting Trump. Rather, it has to do with getting Trump bogged down in court proceedings for the next fifteen months to possibly clear the field for a dem victory in November. This Biden administration is the most corrupt in my lifetime, and that's really saying something.
The judge in this case was previously from a firm associated with Hunter Biden. She has also been hard core in sentencing of Jan 6 rioters . She will almost certainly place gag orders on Trump . She may just deny bail if he is convicted awaiting appeals.
It is pretty clear that the deep state strategy is to hamstring Trump while at the same time ensuring that he is the Repub nominee . That part is working . The more they pile on ;the more Trump pulls away from primary challengers .
The indictment looks more ridiculous the more I look at it ..
This poll taken last year shows the extent of how many people the election in 2020 was the result of cheating .
Rasmussen Reports Survey: Most voters think that cheating affected the outcome of the 2020 presidential election (crimeresearch.org)
Yet the case is made that Trump KNOWINGLY touting a fringe legal theory that he really did not believe, to defraud the government .
Very good observation. It shows that there are still smart people in Washington who are using their smarts in devious ways.Quote:
It is pretty clear that the deep state strategy is to hamstring Trump while at the same time ensuring that he is the Repub nominee
The Dems may regret this. Regardless of the verdict (I am 99% sure he will be found guilty ;and then it will be reversed in appeal like Virginia Guv Bob McDonnell's was ....[he was also indicted by Jack Smith ])
Trump will have his day in court and will be able to make his case that the election was stolen. Previous cases had Trump the accuser . He was responsible to bring evidence that a jury would accept; evidence that local election officials were not required to produce. Without such proof the cases were dismissed .
As a defendant Trump can watch the prosecution try to prove without a doubt that the election was fair. Evidence will have to be presented and subject to cross examination. As I have said before 'discovery is a b*tch'. He can introduce evidence countering the liar charge that predicates the charges against him. (not that political lying is a criminal offense
Local officials will need to prove every vote counted was a legal vote. Zuckerberg will have to testify the zuck bucks funding of ballot collection. He can demonstrate how elections were unconstitutionally seized by state Guvs and judges from state legislatures.
Imaging Dinesh D’Souza on the witness stand explaining how he gathered information for his documentary 2000 Mules for jury consideration.
2000 Mules Documentary Substantiates 2020 Election Fraud | Bossier Press-Tribune
Can they really deny that a ballot stuffing scheme did not happen in many of the key states ?
And here's the thing. Even if the prosecution can counter all that ;they still need to prove that Trump did not believe it .
What evidence do they have ? Trump telling Pence 'you're too honest ' ? (something Pence is now using in his campaign against Trump
Pence campaign capitalizes on Trump indictment, sells 'Too Honest' merchandise | Washington Examiner
Jack Smith seems to really believe that Trump denials of the results of the election is an elaborate fraud by him rather than Trump truly believing the election was stolen.
But the evidence against that charge is compelling . Smith argues that even though Trump's lawyers (who are co-defendants ) told him that the moves he was making were constitutional ;he got plenty of other advice telling him that there was no longer a path to victory.
That may be true also and still not address Trump's mindset.
Georgia is going to indict him over his phone call with state Sec State Brad Raffensperger. He tried to convince Trump a dozen times or more that Trump had lost the state .Trump persisted in making an argument that all Raffensperger need to do was to look for the missing votes. He told Raffensperger he "won this election by hundreds of thousands of votes,"..... "there's no way I lost Georgia."
Full transcript: Trump's audio call with Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger | CNN Politics
Rudy was telling him the Dems cheated in the state. Sidney Powell was telling him that the Dominion voting machines had been tampered with. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and 2 other lawyers were in on the conversation telling him more points to discuss with the Georgia officials .
Congressional GOP reps were saying that electoral votes in disputed states could not be trusted . Pence was waffling; alternating between agreeing that the vote was suspicious ,then claiming he had no authority to do anything about it...... something that advisors who had his ears disputed .
Polls show that a large percentage of the people believe the election was rigged. In Trump's mind he was defending his people.
Here was his mindset.....He believed that he was cheated by the Dems and nothing was going to change his mind.
"Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County?" "Because that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal, right?"
They told him no machines were moved . But he was unconvinced .
.
Why would he not believe the election was stolen ? Evita had tried to cheat him out of the election in 2016. The deep state effectively kneecapped his Presidency with the false cloud of Russian collusion hanging over his head . The Dems impeached him for the benefit of Quid Pro Joe . Covid gave the Dems the opportunity to change state election rules unconstitutionally for their benefit .
Was it so unreasonable for him to them conclude the election was stolen ?
He said "It doesn't pass the smell test because we hear they're shredding thousands and thousands of ballots, and now what they're saying [is], 'Oh, we're just cleaning up the office.' You know."
In that he was now accusing Georgia Repubs of being part of the conspiracy against him. He points to video evidence of ballot counters tampering with results .
Does that sound like someone who is executing and elaborate fraud ?
Smith in the indictment points out that Trump sorta conceded that he lost . He points to interviews with historians in 2022 But that happened 2 years after the election and do not address his mindset on Jan 6 2021 . Certainly his law suits in the various states continued well past Jan 6.
What was his reaction to the interviews ?
"It seems to me that meeting with authors of the ridiculous number of books being written about my very successful administration, or me, is a total waste of time"'They write whatever they want to write anyway without sources, fact-checking, or asking whether or not an event is true or false.'
‘I didn’t win the election’: Trump admits defeat in session with historians | Books | The Guardian
Does that sound like admitted anything? He also told the historians the election was "rigged".
For Smith to make their case against Trump ,the prosecution should be required to prove that Trump perpetrated a cunning and diabolical plot . They have to prove he did not believe what he was saying on January 6 .As I have said ;they may convince a zombie DC jury . But I doubt a conviction will surive appeal.
I don't like Trump and would much prefer someone else in the White House, but this whole legal process seems ridiculous. There were a lot of people who were convinced that the election was stolen, and considering the FBI colluded with social media companies in favor of Biden, it still seems to be a reasonable conclusion. It certainly has the smell of corruption in it.
He is stupid. He threatened Smith . On Truth Social he posted “If you go after me, I’m coming after you”Quote:
I don't like Trump and would much prefer someone else in the White House,
https://am11.mediaite.com/med/cnt/up...O-AFTER-ME.jpg
So Jack Smith requested protection . Smith's motion states
All the proposed order seeks to prevent is the improper dissemination or use of discovery materials, including to the public. Such a restriction is particularly important in this case because the defendant has previously issued public statements on social media regarding witnesses, judges, attorneys, and others associated with legal matters pending against him. And in recent days, regarding this case, the defendant has issued multiple posts—either specifically or by implication—including the following, which the defendant posted just hours ago:
If the defendant were to begin issuing public posts using details—or, for example, grand jury transcripts—obtained in discovery here, it could have a harmful chilling effect on witnesses or adversely affect the fair administration of justice in this case.
Motion for Order of Protection Trump Trial | PDF | Discovery (Law) | Judiciaries (scribd.com)
Smith used Trump's stupid posting to request the judge to issue a restraining order about Trump possibly disclosing discovery material . (as I said 'discovery is a b*tch' But Trump is undermining the benefit to his defense).
Smith requested that ;
The defendant and defense counsel shall not disclose the Materials or their contents directly or indirectly to any person or entity other than persons employed to assist in the defense, persons who are interviewed as potential witnesses, counsel for potential witnesses, and other persons to whom the Court may authorize disclosure (collectively, “Authorized Persons”). Potential witnesses and their counsel may be shown copies of the Materials as necessary to prepare the defense, but they may not retain copies without prior permission of the Court.
Today Judge Chutkan ordered Trump’s team to file a response and their own version of a restraining order .
If Defendant disagrees with any portion of the government’s proposed Protective Order, ECF No. 10-1, his response shall include a revised version of that Protective Order with any modifications in redline
Trump's team asked to delay their response until Thursday. The judge declined his request .
Completely in line with his past behavior. He has never learned how to keep his mouth shut.
If politicians lying is now a criminal offense then we are going to need to build many new prisons.
What we need is some sort of Constitutional guarantee for free speech.
gee I wish the framers thought of that !
I’ll speak to them about it.
Judge Tanya Chutkan has officially barred Trump from commenting on the corrupt political prosecutors and judges who are essentially preventing him to effectively campaigning .
He no longer can make comments about her , Special Counsel Jack Smith, their staff, and families, or saying anything that amounts to a “pre-trial smear campaign.”
I guess we should be thankful that she still allows him to say "crooked Joe" and to verbally attack Repubs at will.
Judge imposes gag order on Donald Trump in D.C. trial - POLITICO
Tomorrow is the 3rd anniversary of the mostly peaceful riot of January 6
Clueless Joe plans to start his campaign at Valley Forge comparing himself to George Washington ;and his fight for independence from Britain.
2,000 troops died during the Valley Forge winter . He will sh*t on their memory .
This attempt to comes after he failed to compare the events of Jan 6 with the attack on 9-11; Pearl Harbor ;OKC bombing and the Civil War combined .
I hate to tell him . If there is any comparison to the struggle for independence from UK it is Clueless who resembles the mentally challenged King George III
Thus showing yet again that there are tens of millions of ignorant voters in America who will believe virtually anything.Quote:
Clueless Joe plans to start his campaign at Valley Forge comparing himself to George Washington
It has now been confirmed that Trump wanted 10,000 National Guard Troops deployed in DC for his Jan 6 rally. His request was rejected by the DC Mayor
It is now revealed that
Liz Cheney suppressed this information during the Kangaroo court . She claimed there was no evidence of it.
But in truth the committee was told of it on January 28 ,2022 by Deputy Chief of Staff Anthony Ornato. The transcript of his interview ;with Cheney present ;has been released.
Chairman Loudermilk Publishes Never-Before Released Anthony Ornato Transcribed Interview - Press Releases - United States Committee on House Administration
Even a few hundred Capitol police officers would have been enough to have prevented the whole fiasco. Pelosi could have seen to that. Short of that, imagine what 500 Guardsmen would have prevented.
The Justice Dept has agreed to settle a $30 million lawsuit by the widower of Ashli Babbitt She was gunned down in cold blood by Capitol Police Lt Michael Byrd on Jan 6 . The agreement has yet to be finalized but it appears to be working it's way through the court . Byrd was cleared of any wrong doing.
Judge Ana Reyes is presiding over it . She was appointed by Clueless Joe to the DC Circus Court . Of note ;she has put a hold on the military ban of transformers .
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