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Oh, c'mon! There are lot more clearer verses than that one!Quote:
But if universal redemption is what is meant, then what does this mean?
Speaking of Hitler and Trump -- plus all of the mentally ill, maybe the Catholics have it right with Purgatory.
So God will damn and send to Hell over six billion people, including unbaptized fetuses? Maybe 86 will make it to Heaven, as long as they believe exactly the right way.
When reading scripture watch out for the words that have been added by the translators, they can change the meaning. Christ did not die for nothing he died so all can have the opportunity of redemption but salvation is by Faith
And those words have been circled, so we can recognise them immediately?Quote:
When reading scripture watch out for the words that have been added by the translators, they can change the meaning.
As is often the case, you did not answer the question.Quote:
Oh, c'mon! There are lot more clearer verses than that one!
They are typically in italics. While it is true they have been added, it normally clarifies, rather than change, the meaning. It is generally called for by the context. In this passage for instance, the word "one" was added by translators. "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."Quote:
And those words have been circled, so we can recognise them immediately?
You must not have read my reply.
Where would we find the original text? Btw, I've never seen words in italics, nor has that ever been pointed out by any Bible class teachers. Will doublecheck my Bibles.
They are usually in brackets or italics but there are side notesQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1. The italics usage is not in every translation. It is in the KJV and NASB. Not sure about which others. Not in the NIV which would be kind of expected. But it's all of very little practical importance. I read in the NAS and notice the italicized words regularly. They do very little more than add some clarity.Quote:
Where would we find the original text? Btw, I've never seen words in italics, nor has that ever been pointed out by any Bible class teachers. Will doublecheck my Bibles.
2. The reliability of the NT is very, very strong due to the enormous numbers of surviving texts, but even if they were all lost, the NT could be reconstructed by using quoted sections used by the early church fathers. It's all there minus a very few verses.
The difference between your belief and my belief is that, unlike you, I don't condemn those who believe differently than I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You ridicule and mock those who believe differently from you ("What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century"), but there is an additional difference. Your belief is based upon your own opinions, to which you are certainly entitled, but the basis of Christian faith is an amazing book and a man raised from the dead.Quote:
The difference between your belief and my belief is that, unlike you, I don't condemn those who believe differently than I do.
To disagree with someone is not to condemn them. To point out alternatives is not condemning anyone. To ask questions is not condemning. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I have condemned anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Here is where I got the idea - your post #168 where you condemned Tal to hell with the words "So are you [going to hell] if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus." It couldn't be any clearer.
Ridicule and mockery is a far cry from condemnation.
First of all, I did not mock or ridicule anyone. Tal asked, "So the dufus and his sycophants are likely going to hell, right?" (Note: You have not criticized him for condemning.) I replied to his statement, and I did not say he was going to hell. I did point out that faith in Christ is what prevents that. Now does he have faith in Christ? You'll need to ask him about that.
I did NOT say YOU mocked or ridiculed anyone. YOU claimed I did the mocking and ridiculing. Please read carefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, your reading is faulty. Tal is obviously NOT condemning, he is suggesting YOU will condemn based on your belief.Quote:
Tal asked, "So the dufus and his sycophants are likely going to hell, right?" (Note: You have not criticized him for condemning.)
You most certainly did. I even quoted you from your post #168Quote:
I replied to his statement, and I did not say he was going to hell.
There you go - you're doing it again.Quote:
I did point out that faith in Christ is what prevents that.
Let me ask you: Is belief in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation? If so, what happens to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ?
Jumping in here -- "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and [all] have been justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." My response was, "I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice."Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Does that mean BELIEF in JC is not necessary?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why would you ask me? Why not listen to what Jesus said?Quote:
Let me ask you: Is belief in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation? If so, what happens to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ?
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:14-18).
Does that mean that JC is the ONLY son of the Father? Thanks for answering JL
Would a loving God damn over 10 billion humans (including [unbaptized] fetuses and infants) who have never heard the Gospel or are very dedicated to a non-Christian faith they were born into?Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Yes. That's what this quote seems to mean. ...He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:14-18).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Those are the words of Jesus, so you'll have to ask Him about that. For me, I'll place my eternity in His hands and believe His words. You will have to make your own decision. I would just suggest, however, you remember that not only is He a loving God, but He is also just, and the "Judge of the whole earth". If the Bible's teaching about judgement is correct, then your arguments won't get you very far on that day.Quote:
Would a loving God damn over 10 billion humans (including [unbaptized] fetuses and infants) who have never heard the Gospel or are very dedicated to a non-Christian faith they were born into?
It does in the sense of being His divine Son. However, in John 1 it reads, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [i]born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."Quote:
Does that mean that JC is the ONLY son of the Father? Thanks for answering JL
Well please don't keep this layman in suspense, who are those 13... the disciples or... who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you DO believe God will damn over 10 billion humans. Hardly a loving God.
Thanks for making your belief clear. I'm interested in such beliefs - especially from you, who makes such an issue of "evidence" and yet believes the words of an unknown writer from 2 thousand years ago. I wouldn't call that evidence but you're free to believe what you want.
Most Christians have gone beyond that need to believe such bad things about those who don't hold to the same ideas. Biblical literalists are fewer and fewer as we move deeper into the 21st century.
I'm not arguing with you; I'm asking you.Quote:
your arguments won't get you very far on that day
Your argument is with the words of Jesus, and not with mine. I'll let you argue with Him. I suspect you have no idea what "most Christians" have done, but rather than picking and choosing what to believe on the basis of my own tastes and preferences, I'll just choose to believe the words of the man who was raised from the dead.Quote:
So you DO believe God will damn over 10 billion humans. Hardly a loving God.
Thanks for making your belief clear. I'm interested in such beliefs - especially from you, who makes such an issue of "evidence" and yet believes the words of an unknown writer from 2 thousand years ago. I wouldn't call that evidence but you're free to believe what you want.
Most Christians have gone beyond that need to believe such bad things about those who don't hold to the same ideas. Biblical literalists are fewer and fewer as we move deeper into the 21st century.
I'm not arguing with you; I'm asking you.
I'm guilty, you're guilty; all are guilty.Quote:
Now as to who will be subject to that judgement, it will be the guilty.
Yes indeed.
I respect your scholarship and knowledge of your bible, JL, but I must also acknowledge the many sects of Christianity, some more similar to your position than others, but also the many more, almost half the people of the world, who differ in custom, culture, and tradition, and name. Amazingly though the similarities and commonality is so striking I wonder why such deep conflicts from those differences.
I suspect that it's more a difference of the leaders of faith than the faith itself, and the strictness of the shepherds who dominate their flock for their own purpose which in simple human terms is personal power and wealth. Yes the history of a land, region, and it's people, is what shapes these great books, but one must acknowledge that it's not limited to one people, one region, or one religion.
How this comes together as we evolve naturally I can't say, but all have merit as more is revealed and lessons learned. We just ain't their YET! There is certainly enough room to disagree.
I hear what you're saying, but just because there is a wide variety of beliefs does not make all of them valid. There truth in this to be found. I can find no better place to look than the Bible, and there are many plain and clear truths to be found there, independent of the beliefs of man.
The beliefs of others is no less valid to them, as yours is to you, and that's an accepted fact. Conversion is a matter of choice, no matter where you came from or are going to.
The problem with believing that there are many valid religious beliefs is that the person never comes to a conclusion. To believe everything is really to believe in nothing. It's a life of maybes. If a math teacher puts a problem on the board, and six students come up with different answers, then no one believes that all six students are correct. Either one is correct and the others incorrect, or all six are incorrect, but all six are not correct. Strange that we know that of math, and yet believe that there is no real truth about God, so therefore everyone must be correct.
That's not what Tal said. He said, "The beliefs of others is no less valid to them, as yours is to you."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I worked in LibraryLand with coworkers and volunteers who were born into the Muslim religion and the Hindi religion. Each spoke enthusiastically about his/her faith's blessings and celebrations and observances. Years ago I babysat for a Jewish family who told me about their holidays and rituals. It would have been the height of disrespect for me to tell any of them that what they believed since birth, beliefs that were part of their daily lives and prayers and worship, were evil and should be given up, that only Christianity is correct and if they don't change over, they're going to Hell.
They shared their religions with me but didn't preach to me and threaten hellfire, nor would I do that to them. I would not expect any of them to forsake a lifelong belief any more than they would expect me, a lifelong Christian, to become Muslim or Hindi or Jewish.
How do you, JL, behave with coworkers and friends who have different beliefs from yours?
You need to reread my post. You have fallen into the same error. Everyone cannot be right. Jesus said that salvation is available ONLY through Him. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." Now you have to decide if He is right or not. As to your coworkers, no, I would not just confront them and tell them they are wrong, but I would start with the understanding, in my own mind, that they are in error. I would pray for them and trust God for opportunities to tell them the Gospel. I would not be as concerned about their feelings as I would be about the truth.Quote:
It would have been the height of disrespect for me to tell any of them that what they believed since birth, beliefs that were part of their daily lives and prayers and worship, were evil and should be given up, that only Christianity is correct and if they don't change over, they're going to Hell.
I really don't understand you. You stated in an earlier post that, aside from the first three chapters of Genesis, you have a literal understanding of the Bible, but you don't seem to believe the statements of Christ. If indeed, "No comes to the Father but by Me," then don't you think your friends need to know that?
Why would they believe my truth is truer than their truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I did not say that. I question if there was a worldwide flood, if Balaam's donkey talked, if a great fish swallowed Jonah, if Moses parted the Red Sea, and so on.Quote:
I really don't understand you. You stated in an earlier post that, aside from the first three chapters of Genesis, you have a literal understanding of the Bible
The question is, do you believe "your truth" is true. You seem to be unconvinced. You seem not willing to even accept the statements of Jesus. As I said earlier, to believe everything is to believe nothing.Quote:
Why would they believe my truth is truer than their truth?
Regarding the first three chapters of Genesis, you said you regarded it as an allegory, so I assumed you regarded the rest of the Bible as true. My mistake.
You certainly take huge leaps in logic as to what I said and what you have decided I believe!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Then tell us what you believe. Is your "truth" true? Are the statements of Jesus true? If his statements are true, then aren't you under some obligation to tell your co-workers the truth?
Is this guy telling the truth?
https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/167/16732/1673284.gif
You believe him don't you?
That the stock market is up since Trump's election? Are you kidding? Only a raging idiot would deny that. Yes I believe it.
Come on man! So are hate crimes and that's what the chart is about. You seem to see what you want to see. More lies by YOUR side!
https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/cac...43/1674330.jpgBe glad when this silly season is over.
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