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In other words Tom you want the Iranian people to surrender their soveriegnty to the american congress of red necked rubber necks and Iran haters like McKain and Trump. This is not post WWII and Iran is not Germany or Japan. To get those rights you are going to have to have a war and win it. Tell me Tom when did the US last actually win a war? Was that Panama or Granada?
The Iranian people LOST their sovereignty when the 12ers hijacked the revolution in1979 . The Iranian people LOST their attempt to regain their sovereignty in 2009 when they were refused help by the emperor after they practically begged for our support . Your narrative is way off !!Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We sure showed Cuba didn't we?
Yep you showed the taliban too, what Tom is complaining about is that the iranians deposed their american puppet despot in what was, at the time a popular uprising, democracy in action, heaven forbid power should be given to the people to decide their destiny, however dire. But the US has long decided that such things should not run their course, and of course, a great example of american+ intervention is Libya and how is Iraq going for you, Tom?
So how did it work out in South Africa ? It was pressure from the international community ,including divestiture and sanctions that not only ended the South African nuclear regime ;but also ushered in F.W. de Klerk ;who began the dismantling of the Apartheid government ......in other words ,regime change.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The people's power to decide their destiny was taken from them by the 12ers . The people have no say in Iran. When they rose up they were shot down ....and we stood on the sidelines cheering the regime and making common cause with the apocalyptic homicidal rulers . Now we are going to allow them to get a nuclear capability that will permanently entrench them into power .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hello again, tom:
Couple things... Most of the withheld money ISN'T in our banks.. So, it's going back no matter what we do.
You keep saying they better do something, as though we have some sort of leverage.. What I think they'll do is finish building the bomb.. They're 3 months away.. Since they KNOW they'll be attacked, maybe they accelerated their program.. Wouldn't you??
excon
What is missed here is it really doesn't matter, that genie was out of the bottle in 1945, seventy years ago, and we should be very thankful that few nations have progressed to the bomb even though many have the capability. It cound be said that with the sanctions regime the result was inevietable because the Iranians have felt threatened and vulnerable for many years. Anything that lessens that vulnerability and gets them opportunity for reflection may help them begin a new path
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Inside the Ring: Russian nuclear threat grows - Washington TimesQuote:
As the Obama Administration seeks to normalize relations with Iran by concluding a nuclear deal with Tehran, it was revealed this week that the Islamic republic has killed about 500 American soldiers via armor-piercing bombs.
During testimony Tuesday before the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Army Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, revealed the U.S. deaths at the hands of Iranians under questioning from Sen. Tom Cotton.
“I think the Islamic State is a grave and throwing threat, but until they develop their own ballistic missile program and until they have thousands of centrifuges and tons of uranium, I believe the Islamic republic will be a graver threat than the Islamic State, that is, the Islamic Republic of Iran,” said Mr. Cotton, Arkansas Republican.
The senator said Iran remains an anti-American, state sponsor of international terrorism that has killed hundreds of Americans from Lebanon, to Iraq to Afghanistan.
“Hundreds of Americans died, and probably thousands were wounded or suspected of being wounded,” Mr. Cotton said. “What should we say to their families, the families who lost soldiers at the hands of Iranian militias or Iranian roadside bombs, once we reach a deal that’s going to give Iran tens of billions of dollars in sanctions relief and international legitimacy without them changing their behavior?”
In other words they will violate the agreement before the ink is dry . I agree . They violated all the agreements ,sanctions and bans before the deal .Why would we believe their behavior would be any different now ?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Iran Quds chief visited Russia despite U.N. travel ban: Iran official | ReutersQuote:
The head of Iran's elite military Quds Force, who is subject to a United Nations travel ban, has met senior Russian officials in Moscow, an Iranian official said on Friday.Qassem Soleimani, chief of the force which is an overseas arm of the Revolutionary Guards, has been subject to an international travel ban and asset freeze by the U.N. Security Council since 2007.
But the Iranian official, who declined to be identified, said Soleimani had made the trip in the second half of July, where he had held talks covering regional and bilateral issues and the delivery to Iran of S-300 surface-to-air missiles and other weapons.
Soleimani had arrived in Moscow on July 24 and met President Vladimir Putin and Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu before departing three days later, Fox News reported on Thursday.
A Kremlin spokesman denied any meeting between Soleimani and Putin had taken place, RIA news agency reported.
However, two U.S. security sources told Reuters the United States believed the meeting between Putin and Soleimani took place.
The thing that gets lost on reactionary haters is that even us pro-deal types are smart enough to know we may still have to go upside some 12'er heads when/if they DO CHEAT!
I think Obama and Kerry know that too. If Bush had of said he was invading Iraq for violating the deal oil for medicine (With the Europeans no less) and not concocted some other story, he may have been understood too!
NAW, his half a$$ invasion was still the work of a military dufus. He just should have smacked France and Germany to name a few.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What I SAID is that they may have been only 3 months away from acquiring a device BEFORE they agreed to STOP production... But, what I said, and what you said, isn't really the issue, is it??? You want WAR, and that's what ALL that you WANT..
Ok, that's not true.. You want ONE more thing - an Obama DEFEAT.. Right wingers simply CANNOT give him a victory, EVEN if it puts the nation at risk..
excon
You can't accept the fact that this has nothing to do with my opinion of the emperor . A bad deal is a bad deal . I have given examples where continuing the sanction regime has worked (South Africa) and examples where a bad deal resulted in the rogue nation getting nukes (the NORKS ) . BTW ;the Iranians are using the NORKS as their R&D in their nuke and missile development programs ;paying hard cash for it as a matter of fact . Why would they use their limited $$ on nukes and what makes you think that will change when they have more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ??Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:
Look.. I didn't READ it, and I wouldn't understand it if I did.. I suspect you're like me. It MAY be a bad deal. It may not be. I dunno.. But, the POINT is, that's the deal we've GOT, and we're NOT gonna get another one. So, I wanna know what your PLAN is when the deal is rejected...
Saying things like putting more and even stricter sanctions on them, and not letting them have their money back are NOT grounded in reality..
excon
obviously if the deal is not rejected then I will support the candidate who will repeal this "executive agreement " which does not have the authority of a treaty . There is no deal if one of the parties to the agreement walks away .
What I will not be satisfied with is these posers patting themselves on the back and pretending that they solved the problem of a apocalyptic ,homicial regime with it's hands on nukes . They know the history of this better than you and I .
And just for a referesher ......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TcbU5jAavw
How'd that work out ?
BTW how could we read it ? Parts of the deal are secrets even from the emperor .
So not only are we waiting for the congress to act, YOU guys are waiting to win the next election. Bummer, hope you got a Plan B, and highly suggest you NOT hold your breath.
Likely you will holler REPEAL until then though. Ask me how I know. I dare ya!!
It's a no brainer tal, it's an issue they can hook their star too and repeal of OBamacare is so yesterday, after all they lost an election on that one. It is a great pity they cannot be for something instead of this negative politics
Clete - we have a federal election in Canada and the conservatives are doing the same thing here: negative, attack ads. It's shameless.
Yes Karma it seems negative politics is the in thing, but where I come from both sides do it, but yesterday's decision here was something different, a sort of do nothing and kick the ball down the road in the hope that they don't have to fight an election on gay issues. By the way we're with you on climate change, do little, in fact I would think we have probably already reached the targets we set we have over 20% renewables already, solar rooftops are becoming a way of life and wind farms mess up the landscapes, but we can't do better without becoming nuclear, like the world needs another nuclear nation. i just hate the negative way it is sold, like as though we are doing nothing. What I'm aware of is 0.6% of something is effectively nothing and that is what a 40% reduction in emissions would mean. We have to go after the real problems in this world before they overtake us
I have no problem with Australia becoming a nuclear nation . You have a responsible government and are not likely to start dropping bombs on your neighbors.
Hello clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah.. Be like us. We DIDN'T start the war in Iraq, and we're NOT gonna start the war in Iran..
Bwa, ha ha ha ha..
excon
But Tom we are just as warlike as yourselves, we involve ourselves in wars with you, and yet you consider us more responsible than other non-nuclear nations. Fortunately we don't have many neighbours on whom we might drop bonbs
You may be interested in what's going on with the better deal crap
Iran Hawks Think We Can Impose Harsher Sanctions on Iran | The Nation
It gets worse after the first paragraph.Quote:
In the first place, the United States overestimated its ability to sanction Iran and, even at the height of the sanctions, could not stop it from exporting a million barrels a day, to countries such as China, which told the Treasury Department to jump in a lake. Beijing will be even more defiant if there is a congressional demand for yet another round of severe sanctions. Admittedly, Iranian oil exports were down from 2.5 million barrels per day in 2011, and the sanctions hurt, but they weren't crippling and may have even had some benefits. A weaker Iranian currency caused non-oil exports to jump, providing jobs and income to farmers and owners of workshops and factories.
You mean that once again the US shot itsself in the foot. Look, talk is cheap and nowhere is it cheaper than in New York where the UN sits. Sanctions were part of the proxy war of the US on Iran, sanctions didn't stop Iraq either, it took boots on the ground and look where that got us, in hindsight, absolutely nowhere. Iran is larger and much more capable than Iraq and unlike Iraq it is not dependent upon outsiders for its weapons.
This deal means that the world has backed away from war with Iran, which must be counted as an enlightened response. Let them have their nuclear electric industry and allow the nation to prosper, a little money in the pocket will soon change attitudes, give them something to loose rather than backing them into a corner
Cheating on a deal would be the perfect cover for swinging a big stick. Same outcome if they refused it, but if we walk away makes us look like shmucks after all these machinations.
Should have told Netty to shut the hell up, instead of slobbering all over the guy.
I agree about Israel, far too confrontational for a small nation, like the little snappy dog with the big dog behind it. No we must not walk away but be found to keep our word, either way
You have responsible government accountable to the people . You're nation is not run by despots who have an apocalyptic vision of their role in bringing about a violent end time . You're nation has not openly announced that their goal was to destroy one or more of it's neighbors.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Incredibly naive . You are just like the emperor full of hopey changey . Even he knows that's not what this is about . What he and the P6+1 have done is what Roosevelt ,Churchill ,and Stalin did at Yalta ........ divide the world into spheres of influence . They have decided to unleash the 12ers in the hope that they will be a stabilizing force ;a regional hegemon.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yeah the emperor is blaming the Jews too. He went so far as to question Chuck Schumer's loyalties.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
So this differs from earlier strategy, how? You have always tried to create these regional hagemon, it so happens this one doesn't suit your philosopy of universal US style demcracy. That didn't work in Iraq either. Tom Iran is a muslim state even if their brand differs from the idiots in Saudi who seek world domination through religious fanaticism, You have allied yourselves with the wrong parties and look where it has led, case in point Syria and daesh. Let the Muslims work it out amongst themselves, Do the Israeli thing, build a bloody great wall around them and come back in a hundred years.
You miss this all the time, this is the great game and Persia has always been part of the great game. Russia wants you to engage in a war in the middle east with Iran. It can sell them arms and technology and bleed you, just as you bled Russia in Afghanistan
As I've already said ;Iran already wages war against us,and has been since 1979. What we have in this country is a rogue President who is turning American foreign policy on it's head. He's gone in a year and a half and then we can repair all the damage he has done to our foreign policy .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah.... And, what'll FIX it, is a war with Iran, another one with Iraq, and throw in Syria too, what the hell?
excon
the emperor is trying to start a war with Russia too . You forgot that one .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That one might be worth fighting..
I know, I know... You righty's have a bromance with Putin.
excon
bromance is a little strong . But I'm not enthused about the prospect of us fighting to defend a neo-nazi nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Come on Tom you know that if you could have got your aircraft carriers through the Bosporus you would have been fighting Russia already, but there is nothing more pathetic than a land locked aircraft carrier No stick to the fights you can win, like a few rag tag islamic militants, oh wait, I can't recall you actually winning any of those. Remind me please, when was it you actually won a fight? I know, we celebrate it last week
Hello again,
So, you negotiated a raise at work.. When you get home, your wife says, WE NEED A BETTER DEAL. What would happen to you if you went back to your boss?
excon
The prez is but ONE senator away from getting it done... AGAIN!
Breaking News
Senate Dems get 34th vote to hand Obama victory on Iran deal - AP News 9/2/2015 10:10 AM
The wingers have a right to holler, scream, and cry FOUL... AGAIN! Condolences to Netty... He tried!
Thinking the Schmuckster will lose his chance to become the Dem majority leader due to the one principled stand he's taken as Senator .
Bob Casey of Pa. was a disappointment . He said :“I'm very confident that all the pathways to a nuclear weapon are cut off,” so long as the agreement is strictly enforced.
Good luck with that ! The deal allows the Iranians to' self inspect ' key sites . I'll say it again. This deal makes war with Iran MORE likely .
I don't blame the Dems . I blame the worthless GOP for surrendering their prerogative to approve any deal.
I would tell her to negotiate a better deal with HER boss, and stay out of me and my bosses business.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
>Grabs pillow heads for couch, and waits for the burned toast. (She ain't gonna to be happy tonight!! Oh well!!!<
I blame Obama for doing his job without the "shock and awe blowing stuff up"!! Back to the Trump Show... pass the popcorn please!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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