Tal I live in an area where even timber is exported to China, I think it is a great falacy that we give them raw materials rather that processed product, we have food produced in China on our shelves, probably from our own produce and there is no need for it, we are self sufficient in food production, what I see is our industries will be destroyed and we will become dependent upon them. You guys don't understand Marx "we will sell the last capitalist the rope to hang himself" it isn't about military conquest, they don't need to do that, but their economic conquest has begun. Russia couldn't do it, too confrontational, but China understands time, they understand that civilisations rise and fall, even yours. Look at the great civilisationsn of the past, they never again rose to be what they had once been and we walk over their ruins today, it is inevietable it will be the same for you

It is a complete falacy that we think that what we are doing today is sustainable and we can continue growing indefinately

Clete there is a humongous room for growth, and despite your claims of our demise we ain't dead yet. For sure if you want to be so isolated, you will not evolve let alone grow. Why so pessimistic? Do you root for failure?

You don't get it Tal, our economies are based on growth but look at the last few years it has been difficult to get back to where we were before the GFC even with the tremendous potential there has been for growth in the third world. This is because we have allowed our manufacturing growth to be eroded in favour of low cost countries. What pulled us out of depression the last time was a world war and we don't need another one of those. My country has done well because of a mining boom but our other industries languish they cannot get the growth and your are the same, low cost competition is destroying what we do have and we have this foolish idea of a free market and a level playing field. It doesn't work that way as China has demonstrated. They have played a different game to us and have succeeded in gutting our industries. No one wants to be isolated but the correct word is insulated. You think you ain't dead yet look at Detroit, now we don't have cities like that yet, but it is coming because Asia hss learned to compete much better than we have.

I see no positive outcomes from isolation ,especially economic isolation. You talk of our dependency on China ? I see it as they being dependent on us.

No Tom they are not dependent upon you, they can sustain their growth from internal development because they are mortgaging their future building infrastructure while you mortgage yours building aircraft carriers, their emerging market will dwarf yours but they are sensible already they are restricting growth in their auto market, they don't want their people travelling about. Their aircraft industry will supply their aircraft, their car industry their cars, etc and they will supply you too unless you wake up. Asia will out compete us all and we just stand by and let them afterall they represent half the world and you seem to have no comprehension of that. That half of the world has a different cost structure, a different work ethic and a very different idea on how to do business

Seems its you who don't get it Clete, as every country is trying to recover from the global mess, and none so far have done any good by isolating themselves or doing just for themselves, not even China. You cannot insulate yourselves from your own problems and neither can China. The only way to grow is to interact, not insulate.

economic isolation = higher prices for consumers ; increased costs, ,reduced competitiveness, lower quality of life .

It would seem that what we have got is destruction of our industries, every week we have reports of a business closing or laying off, our auto industry is disappearing with a market so fragmented by imports it has become unsustainable, our airline industry is in retreat, cheap rubbish litters our supermarket shelves pushing out local manufacturers, smaller stores are closing because they cannot compete and you somehow think this improves the quality of life, what we get is a push for lower wages because we are competing with low cost countries and I cannot see how lower wages gives better quality of live. We have been seduced by a nonsense

You have the same problem we have Clete, corporations run to cheap labor and your government does nothing, as does ours, and most of the rest of the world. Think of that the next time you blast the governments of others, and tout your own as so perfect.

We all sink in the same crap.

My government is far from perfect and the conservative one we have now seems to be a rabid dog, biting everything. If we had a "perfect" government it was sometime ago. What I have said to you in the past is that some of our ideas are a better implementation than yours and just maybe you could learn from that. the reason I keep up the argument is that I don't want what you have to be implemented here and that just might go for both sides of your spectrum. hell, we can even learn from New Zealand and they are a lot smaller than we are
.
right now you have a mood to follow us back to the right side, for us that has proven to have a dark side, so I caution you be sure of what you are voting for

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

What happened to this Tea Party armed revolution that mentioned a few years ago?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

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Oh I don't know Tal we kicked a conservative government for a socialist one, then you did too, you have found the experience less than exciting and so did we with the result that we kicked the socialist government for a conservative one and I expect you will do the same. I think the conditions in parts of our countries might be similar if at different stages, I don't think we have hit the depths that you did but with this government who have decided that debt cannot be tolerated we may get there. The problem here is we had a pack of rabid dogs and we thought the other mob might be different, silly us ah for the days before you gifted us with the GFC

True some here have labeled the government socialists but those are some loud voices who holler labels and spew their hate while embracing "socialist" policy and programs they like Medicare for one and SOCIAL security for another. Listening to them and their anti government rhetoric is foolish and unbalanced in REALITY, Clete as well as judgments based on such hollering.

You were robbed as we were and caught flat footed by GFC and we all struggle to recover from it. Indeed if you had a better idea you should have lead the way by your example, but you are as clueless as the rest of the world in confronting and solving the problem.

So how about more acceptance of responsibility for your own pile of crap, instead of laying it at the feet of your fellow victims. I mean you went along with the program as long as the money flowed, like all the rest so too late to holler now. I mean have you smelled YOUR pile of crap lately? Stinks as bad as mine for sure. Excuses why are irrelevant. Clean it up and that should be easy for you so well enlightened. In truth as mature a society as you want to brag about, you still have more growing to do, and global growing pains should be expected.

Wake up from your fantasy of perfection and clean up your own room, before you criticize mine as being messy. And do something about these rabid dogs while you're at it. Easier said than done.

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

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Lincoln is probably wondering what his republican party is quacking about.

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Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

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Nothing wrong with socialism, but since they aren't then that would explain why they don't call themselves that.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

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You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

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like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.

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Invest it? You'd be better off taking it and then investing it, rather than living off it. You can opt out of Medicare, I think.

I have no intention of living off SS. But then again ,the government has no intention of having me live off of it . The die is already cast for some reforms that include means testing .

As for Medicare . .... again opt out after I have paid for it my whole working life ? No one gave us the option BEFORE we started paying for it . Besides ;I'm happy to have money taken out of my paycheck to pay for transgender operations .

Medicare Ban on Sex Reassignment Surgery Lifted - ABC News

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I have no intention of living off SS. But then again ,the government has no intention of having me live off of it . The die is already cast for some reforms that include means testing .

As for Medicare . .... again opt out after I have paid for it my whole working life ? No one gave us the option BEFORE we started paying for it . Besides ;I'm happy to have money taken out of my paycheck to pay for transgender operations .

Medicare Ban on Sex Reassignment Surgery Lifted - ABC News

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Yeah Tom.. imagine how many older people that worked their whole lives paying inot the system could have gotten basic medical care for the cost of one HE-SHE transmorgification...

The assumption is that transgendered people have never worked hard or paid taxes?

transformer surgery is elective

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Originally Posted by tomder55

transformer surgery is elective

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so now it is possile to become a metal object? I want to be a Transam seriously Tom providing a benefit and someone actually using it are two different things and you would benefit from living on SS, you might see how the other half lives

there were many years of denying myself the things the "other half" take for granted .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

The assumption is that transgendered people have never worked hard or paid taxes?

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SO.. are they offering John Holmes or Dolly Parton Surgery for the other old folks that lived their lives without the ample endowments they always wanted but didn't want to pay out of pocket for it their entire lives untl then? If they don't then they are denying the rest equality.

Vacuum Therapy Penile Pumps | Medically Approved and Insurance Covered

You want breast too?

it is marvelous how these arguments go from the sublime to the rediculous I have never questioned whether our medicare provided gender realignment surgery, so long as I get what I need when I need it, I'm not interested if they meet the needs of others, but then we don't have a large population of such people. The idea that a system that serves the general population should only serve the needs of a few is very undemocratic and very orwellian

You can get a boob job if you already have a penis and plan to keep it or get it lopped off... but not if you were born with girl parts already.

That's patently unfair to women... and the old guys that live in old folds home. Unless they plan on killing off a few of the old guys with heart attacks from what they find in the depends.

this trivilises the debate but then I should be used to that, back to the OP which afterall is about whether disaffected youth should be able to kill at will and whether a responsible society should be enablers of such actions

THe disaffected youth... need to be dumped off on a remote island and left to fend for themselves.

Its cheaper than jail... and gets them away from innocent people.

ah yes the ultimate solution....Lord of the Flies and all that, didn't work there and doesn't work now. Until people get serious about the issues and stop just decrying the symptoms you will remain a society which is a training ground for terrorists, becuase this is exactly what these people are. McVieh was trained in a gun totin society in Michigan before he became a bomber and why because the ideas he had were nurtured in that society and it had nothing to do with liberty, defense thereof or whatever and a whole lot to do with just lettin it all hang out

What young people need is discipline, the discipline of a couple of years in the armed forces after high school doing useful work, reconstruction, relief and gaining some life skills and even some trade skills, then they can go to college and get some other forms of learning they can apply. What you have is a namby pamby system that allows these problems to hide in academia whereas they would be spotted in the military

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Originally Posted by paraclete

ah yes the ultimate solution....Lord of the Flies and all that, didn't work there and doesn't work now. Until people get serious about the issues and stop just decrying the symptoms you will remain a society which is a training ground for terrorists, becuase this is exactly what these people are. McVieh was trained in a gun totin society in Michigan before he became a bomber and why because the ideas he had were nurtured in that society and it had nothing to do with liberty, defense thereof or whatever and a whole lot to do with just lettin it all hang out

What young people need is discipline, the discipline of a couple of years in the armed forces after high school doing useful work, reconstruction, relief and gaining some life skills and even some trade skills, then they can go to college and get some other forms of learning they can apply. What you have is a namby pamby system that allows these problems to hide in academia whereas they would be spotted in the military

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YOu had too many resources, too much space... and too many people. Something a remote island isn't going to be overly abundent with. And we are talking totally different categories of people... back when that was done in Australia... people actually knew how to do things... your average punk these days would have a hard enough time finding food in a supermarket... without an iPhone app to tell them how and where.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

YOu had too many resources, too much space... and too many people. Something a remote island isn't going to be overly abundent with. And we are talking totally different categories of people... back when that was done in Australia... people actually knew how to do things... your average punk these days would have a hard enough time finding food in a supermarket... without an iPhone app to tell them how and where.

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What do you mean what was done in Australia? transporting people to a remote place and treating them like animals? What was done in Australia was a response to your revolution, they could no longer dump the dregs there so they found another place. But you see it over two centuries breeded an unique ethos
, one which actually says "stuff you"

All you are doing is reinforcing my view of your society. I'm suggesting that the young people don't need to be shunned by your society, which is what you are suggesting but taken off the streets and put through the mill, obviously they would be paid for their work and actually grasp the concept rather than be left to behave like punks

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What do you mean what was done in Australia? transporting people to a remote place and treating them like animals? What was done in Australia was a response to your revolution, they could no longer dump the dregs there so they found another place. But you see it over two centuries breeded an unique ethos
, one which actually says "stuff you"

All you are doing is reinforcing my view of your society. I'm suggesting that the young people don't need to be shunned by your society, which is what you are suggesting but taken off the streets and put through the mill, obviously they would be paid for their work and actually grasp the concept rather than be left to behave like punks

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Punks shouldn't have their bad behaviour rewarded... doing so gives them an unfair advantage those others that did behave correctly and did the right thing didn't get.

And it's a matter of fact... that even 30 or 40 years ago the average person had a far greater skillset than the people of today have. And the people of 200 years ago would have died off if they didn't have significantly more skills than today's people have.

Example... how many kids tody even know how to plant a garden? Build anything with their hands using basic tools?

Animals deserve to be treated like animals... and in fact... many animals behave better than many people do. THose people don't deserve better treatment than the average person. Otherwise bad behaviour is being rewarded.

And given a choice of being dumped on of a remote island that has limited food and water resources... and the Australian continent. ANyone would be better off on the Australian Continent. They were starting with more... and get enough people with diversified actual work skills... you have a chance at building something... put your average group of punks today in that same situation... they are going to be lost without the internet, and bellyaching there isn't a Starbucks nearby... and wouldn't know what to do with a pile of lumber and a hammer and nails if you handed it to them... much less how to cut their own from trees.

Considering what the norm was in UK prisons back in the day... or wha taverage life was like for the average wretch... being sent to Australia wasn't much different than what people who first came to our country to colonize it. They didn't have much more if any more resources available but what they could make for themselves.

This is the 21st century, and not the good old days when you were growing up when the jobs were abundant and the schooling much cheaper. We have done a lousy job giving our kids the same opportunities that many of us had and take for granted. The skillsets we grew up with and the and the hard work ethic no longer is as adequate for success as it was when I came out of school.

Small wonder they have no outlets to the piss and vinegar of youth when we have not given them direction, and guidance, but criticism and the backward look at how hard we had to work to get where we are.

Still they strive, but we can only pick out the bad examples and broad brush their idiocy with all of them and that's not only unfair but inaccurate and goes nowhere in solving the basic problem of less opportunity to be gainfully employed.

Smoothy you have no more idea of life on the Australian continent than you do of the moon. The people who came here were like your Jamestown mob, they couldn't survive here but they were fortunate they had supplies. They actually landed in a basin from which there was no escape, it took them many years to get off the coast with it's poor, acid soils and no wild life to speak of. I have seen my grandchildren want to plant a garden it is a natural instinct which must be nurtured.

The people who came to Australia had the lash for company, many were political prisoners it wasn't until fifty years had elapsed that free settlers began to come here in any number if they built anything it was under compulsion

You fail to understand that it is your modern society that has poisoned the youth with your letcherous behaviour and its emphasis on electronics and self. You blame the youth, but it is you. it is your greed that took their employment away and left them desititute in the streets. You dare to say to these people rise up get off your arse and follow me because I'm better than you. the fact is the problem is you and those like you

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Originally Posted by talaniman

This is the 21st century, and not the good old days when you were growing up when the jobs were abundant and the schooling much cheaper. We have done a lousy job giving our kids the same opportunities that many of us had and take for granted. The skillsets we grew up with and the and the hard work ethic no longer is as adequate for success as it was when I came out of school.

Small wonder they have no outlets to the piss and vinegar of youth when we have not given them direction, and guidance, but criticism and the backward look at how hard we had to work to get where we are.

Still they strive, but we can only pick out the bad examples and broad brush their idiocy with all of them and that's not only unfair but inaccurate and goes nowhere in solving the basic problem of less opportunity to be gainfully employed.

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If that's the case Tal... then why has the average quality of education been getting worse to the point few graduates from high school are even ready to enter college today?

THat wasn't the case when WE graduated....and they where wasting a lot less money doing it then too.

THey don't even have a skillset to speak of... and they are too lazy to work hard... neither of those are inadequate for success... they are both indespinsible and today's youth in general lack both... then whine its not fair they have to work their way up the ladder.. they expect to be appopinted CEO out of high school and they actually believe they already know everything they will ever need coming right out of school...

When they actually don't.

If Illegals can sneak in, and manage to find jobs and make enough money to support not only themselves and families here they brought with them... but to send money home to support people back there... then what excuse do millinials have to mooch off their parents YEARS after they become adults? THEY have a better education and actually speak the language (well some of them do at least).

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Smoothy you have no more idea of life on the Australian continent than you do of the moon. The people who came here were like your Jamestown mob, they couldn't survive here but they were fortunate they had supplies. They actually landed in a basin from which there was no escape, it took them many years to get off the coast with it's poor, acid soils and no wild life to speak of. I have seen my grandchildren want to plant a garden it is a natural instinct which must be nurtured.

The people who came to Australia had the lash for company, many were political prisoners it wasn't until fifty years had elapsed that free settlers began to come here in any number if they built anything it was under compulsion

You fail to understand that it is your modern society that has poisoned the youth with your letcherous behaviour and its emphasis on electronics and self. You blame the youth, but it is you. it is your greed that took their employment away and left them desititute in the streets. You dare to say to these people rise up get off your arse and follow me because I'm better than you. the fact is the problem is you and those like you

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Listen... its not us... its the lazy youths fault... everyone is responsible for what they make of their own life... or if they decide to waste it like so many do... with the freedom of choice comes responsibility for those choices.

I've seen kids born to weathy parents, that attended private schools... piss away every advantage they had handed to them... while thoses of us that attended public schools from poor parents managed to do far better with what we had available to us.

And try and twist it as you wish... the first settlers in our country weren't much different than prisoners... they were fleeing abject poverty and persecution where they came from... only a few had money or connections... you either busted your bum and succeeded or you starved to death... they really had no other options. They likely would not have survived if they remained in their home countries for any number of reasons.