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  • Mar 9, 2014, 09:28 AM
    talaniman
    I think Tom we have long advanced to making better progress with process and procedures that depend on earlier detection and actions to eliminate completely the need for such late term abortions. Most abortions take place at 12 weeks, so why not cut that to 6,or 7? We already have the medical technology to achieve those ends and prevent most abortions already without demonizing or criticizing females about their own health choices and options.

    Naw I don't think guys have a say in those choices, unless given a say by the female.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 09:49 AM
    tomder55
    But if the mother chooses to bring the pregnancy to term then it is still the man's responsibility to provide for the child. I think in a case where the father wants the child and an abortion is done without consent ,then the father is a victim of the law.

    Admit it ;what you are really telling me is that the child has no rights ,the father has no rights and that the woman ,due to their distinct biology ,has special and unequal rights . You consign men and children to 2nd class status.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 01:02 PM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    the woman ,due to their distinct biology ,has special and unequal rights

    Currently, you are correct. But you have to admit it's less messy than telling her kid to go to sleep in the back seat while she takes her SUV for a swim in the ocean.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 01:16 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But if the mother chooses to bring the pregnancy to term then it is still the man's responsibility to provide for the child. I think in a case where the father wants the child and an abortion is done without consent ,then the father is a victim of the law.

    Admit it ;what you are really telling me is that the child has no rights ,the father has no rights and that the woman ,due to their distinct biology ,has special and unequal rights . You consign men and children to 2nd class status.

    Men telling women what to do consigns woman to a second class status too. "Keep them bare foot and pregnant"? And poor kids and woman are already given second class citizen status by some MEN that are unwilling to support, and nurture them.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 02:14 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdad View Post
    I dont think it is such a long bow at all when you examine the history and connections from past to present. The words may have changed and been upgraded to fit a point of veiw but it doesnt mean they have disappeared into history. Planned parenthood was started with blacks and hispanics in mind.

    The organization promoted the founding of birth control clinics, primarily for the Black and Latino population, and encouraged women to control their own fertility.


    Yes, fitting things to represent a point of view is the problem.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 05:10 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Men telling women what to do consigns woman to a second class status too. "Keep them bare foot and pregnant"? And poor kids and woman are already given second class citizen status by some MEN that are unwilling to support, and nurture them.

    I'm with you on men unwilling to support their kids but that is not something we created. We aren't the ones encouraging moms to be independent and have a career (though now you say obamacare frees them from that, or that we discourage such), marriages that have nothing to do with a mom and a dad, that women don't need men, that women are helpless without government, or that children are disposable. or, not caring that abortion disproportionately affects minorities.

    NYC: 80% of Abortions Were Minority Babies | CNS News

    But barefoot and pregnant, second class? That's so Fifties. If you respected women you wouldn't make them dependent on government or blow off predators that prey on them a la Bob Filner and Gosnell.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 05:33 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    not caring that abortion disproportionately affects minorities.
    everything disproportionately affect minorities, it wasn't long ago we were debating whether the war on drugs disproportionately targeted minorities. The fact is too much attention is given to minorities and this is because they are very vocal about disadvantage, but disadvantage is the result of a society which doesn't think everyone should be equal in all respects, they mouth the platitudes but are happy to keep there focus away from such issues. Ask Tom whether he thinks there should be handouts to minorities or that they should get a higher minimum wage. Fact is many of us think they shouldn't get the handouts they do, that they should work harder at helping themselves.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 05:46 PM
    talaniman
    Harshness Warning

    Just for the fact that men DON'T support them or their kids is a case for independence and careers rather than be poor and demonized. Then they can make informed decisions in their own best interest, and not be put in desperate situations by predators or those that claim to they know what's best for them.

    If a female already has one or two children, you have a problem when she decides a 3rd, or 4th is not in her best interest? I guess that link you provided doesn't account for circumstances that lead to decisions, and the choices minority females make in their own interest. You must think also that no one has rights unless its bestowed on them by some self righteous moral majority religion. That's not the case and neither is what black females do with their life choices either.

    If you can't help, take your beliefs and stay out of the lives of others.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 06:24 PM
    Catsmine
    The problem with their choices about third, fourth, or fifth kids is that the Welfare Plantation pays them to have the kids, providing there isn't a father figure in the house. It was designed that way by LBJ to "keep them ... voting Democrat for two hundred years." (expletive deleted). It's been working great for fifty already.
  • Mar 9, 2014, 09:21 PM
    paraclete
    you guys really are that cynical, no wonder you have problems
  • Mar 10, 2014, 03:44 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    The problem with their choices about third, fourth, or fifth kids is that the Welfare Plantation pays them to have the kids, providing there isn't a father figure in the house. It was designed that way by LBJ to "keep them ... voting Democrat for two hundred years." (expletive deleted). It's been working great for fifty already.

    Yeah the civil rights bill was just a cover up.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 04:12 AM
    paraclete
    this is what you get for engeneering society
  • Mar 10, 2014, 04:42 AM
    talaniman
    Isn't every nation young, or old, big or small, to some extent engineering their societies? Isn't that what fiscal policy is all about? I don't think you can just single out the US, and constantly focus on our challenges and forget your own like they don't exist. All of our fortunes are tied to each other to some extent or another.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 05:59 AM
    paraclete
    Yes our fortunes are tied together and it seems we are destined to introduce the worst of your ideas. You think I focus just on you but in this forum you are so self obscessed you discuss nothing but yourselves as if nothing else exists. What we have managed to do is refine some of your ideas to take out the excesses forged by your political system and wedded these to our own ideas, so when we engineer society it is with a vastly different result. We had the foolishness of giving incentive for children to be born but the ones who took it away wern't the conservatives but those you would consider liberal. we saw a socialist government tie school attendence to welfare payments, I wonder how well that would go down with your politicians and we put our illegal immigrants in gulags, you should try it some time instead of reserving them for drug offenders
  • Mar 10, 2014, 06:12 AM
    talaniman
    Its an ongoing process in both counties Clete as well as across the globe, and as history has shown us the weak rise and the mighty fall because nothing stays the same. Its all good when times are great but takes very little to change that economic dynamic.

    I'm sure you are proud of your gulags to solve your immigration issues, but as they grow, the will suck your economy dry and create years of financial problems supporting those that not only cannot produce for you but simply have to be accommodated one way, or another.

    That's okay, you will figure it out. As we figure out solutions for long term consistent positive growth.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 06:21 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You must think also that no one has rights unless its bestowed on them by some self righteous moral majority religion.

    I believe the phrase is "endowed by our creator," and those would be life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Your side isn't too keen on honoring the right to life for the pre-born.

    Quote:

    That's not the case and neither is what black females do with their life choices either.
    Margaret Sanger nods in approval.

    Quote:

    If you can't help, take your beliefs and stay out of the lives of others.
    Says the side that wants to be in every aspect of our lives EXCEPT abortion.

    P.S. What happened to the "preview" feature?
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:02 AM
    talaniman
    Equal protection under the law has been redefined as more people pursue THEIR happiness. The reasons for DENYING what the creator ENDOWS us falls group by group from what the founders originally outlawed. You ignore we started with just white guys with land, and now gay people are fighting to be married. It's far from over as more exercise their rights, and choices. Including how to manage their own lives without church intervention. So be it Washington, or Sanger, the process of changing the definitions to fit reality moves on.

    While input from the right, and even far right is important it's not the goal, or the destination many want. I have always been against abortion, but that's my choice and as its legal, others have a right to their own choices, that the Creator endows upon us. Not just YOU!

    PS, Preview is at the bottom of the GO ADVANCE page next to Submit Answer button. Maybe different in the VGO skin mode.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:09 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Equal protection under the law has been redefined as more people pursue THEIR happiness. The reasons for DENYING what the creator ENDOWS us falls group by group from what the founders originally outlawed. You ignore we started with just white guys with land, and now gay people are fighting to be married. It's far from over as more exercise their rights, and choices. Including how to manage their own lives without church intervention. So be it Washington, or Sanger, the process of changing the definitions to fit reality moves on.

    While input from the right, and even far right is important it's not the goal, or the destination many want. I have always been against abortion, but that's my choice and as its legal, others have a right to their own choices, that the Creator endows upon us. Not just YOU!

    And like Sanger you apprently nod in approval at the abortion holocaust among minorities.

    Quote:

    PS, Preview is at the bottom of the GO ADVANCE page next to Submit Answer button. Maybe different in the VGO skin mode.
    The button is there, it just stopped actually showing the preview on my tablet and PC a few days ago.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 03:23 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Its an ongoing process in both counties Clete as well as across the globe, and as history has shown us the weak rise and the mighty fall because nothing stays the same. Its all good when times are great but takes very little to change that economic dynamic.

    I'm sure you are proud of your gulags to solve your immigration issues, but as they grow, the will suck your economy dry and create years of financial problems supporting those that not only cannot produce for you but simply have to be accommodated one way, or another.

    That's okay, you will figure it out. As we figure out solutions for long term consistent positive growth.

    No Tal we are not proud of our gulags, at least our non politicians are not proud of this solution and its outcomes, yes it is a financial burden which sucks funding from more worthwhile projects.

    Good luck with your positive growth, might I suggest you arrest the positive growth in your prison industry as a place to start
  • Mar 10, 2014, 03:28 PM
    talaniman
    We have been rearranging our priorities as of late as to who really should be sent to jail, and who shouldn't be. But the hardliners are slow to budge.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 03:48 PM
    paraclete
    yes meanwhile we have been developing our truth in sentencing laws ensuring we are destined to duplicate your experiment
  • Mar 10, 2014, 04:20 PM
    smoothy
    Yes... they play to legalize heroin, meth and cocaine as well as all their derivatives next. And legalize the illegals and give voting rights to everyone who shouldn't have them.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 04:29 PM
    paraclete
    giving voting rights to everyone who lives there; what a revolutionary idea! and legalising drugs, well it's just a step on the prohibition trail, first, you criminalised alcohol, and conducted a war, then you legalised it, then you criminalised drugs, need I go on....perhaps this time you will learn the lessons of history
  • Mar 10, 2014, 05:28 PM
    smoothy
    I bet Australia allows all the illigals from Malaysia and China (and everywhere else they are from) Vote there... ( sarcasm font enabled)

    Incidentally... "living there" isn't the requirement to vote in almost every country in the world... being a citizen is.

    Odd coming from a country and person that thinks private citizens should NOT be allowed to have guns..... but thinks legalizing drugs is a great idea.

    How about opening your borders up to all those Illegals coming there....I know you aren't any happier about then doing that than most Americans are.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 06:49 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    I bet Australia allows all the illigals from Malaysia and China (and everywhere else they are from) Vote there... ( sarcasm font enabled)

    Incidentally... "living there" isn't the requirement to vote in almost every country in the world... being a citizen is.

    Odd coming from a country and person that thinks private citizens should NOT be allowed to have guns..... but thinks legalizing drugs is a great idea.

    How about opening your borders up to all those Illegals coming there....I know you aren't any happier about then doing that than most Americans are.


    No we don't allow this, but this does not mean that it can't happen. Compared to your electoral system our system has a low degree of fraud. This is because Federal election and controlled by a centralized process. There is a continual cross-checking of information in order to detect different types of fraud. I think it works something like the detection of taxation fraud.

    There are a number of different opinions regarding illegals coming to Australia. Nonetheless, the newly elected government has adopted a tough stance of illegals.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 06:53 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    No we don't allow this, but this does not mean that it can't happen. Compared to your electoral system our system has a low degree of fraud. This is because Federal election and controlled by a centralized process. There is a continual cross-checking of information in order to detect different types of fraud. I think it works something like the detection of taxation fraud.

    There are a number of different opinions regarding illegals coming to Australia. Nonetheless, the newly elected government has adopted a tough stance of illegals.


    As they should...


    The problem we have isn't related to the electoral system... it has to do with the democrats fighting against having to have voters be required to show proof of ID before they are allowed to vote at the polls. Which is actually regulated state by state. And they fight tooth and nail every time anyone tries to assure there is as little fraud as possible.

    We don't have a problem with illegals and dead people in the Electoral college, we have it at the polls. That and the people that were being literal when they say vote early and vote often. I assume you know how our electoral colege system works.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 06:58 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    As they should...


    THe problem we have isn't related to eh electoral system... it has to do with the democrats fighting having to have votors be required to show proof of ID before they are allowed to vote.

    We don't have a problem with illegals and dead people in the Electoral college, whe have it at the polls. That and the people that were being literal when they say vote early and vote often.

    Our biggest problem in elections is probably people who vote more than once. However, instant computerized recording of someone who has just voted-linked to all polling stations will solve that problem
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:01 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    Our biggest problem in elections is probably people who vote more than once. However, instant computerized recording of someone who has just voted-linked to all polling stations will solve that problem

    And something I among others believe should be implemented here as well. Who would argue against it, usless they support election fraud. THere have been a few prominent cases where people have been caught..one was an elected official, a woman from florida that voted in two states....I believe it happens a lot more often than is admitted.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:11 PM
    Tuttyd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    And something I among others believe should be implemented here as well. Who would argue against it, usless they support election fraud.


    Yes, I agree. Electoral fraud is the attempt to under democracy at whatever level it occurs. Our electoral system is pretty good by comparison to others. However, this does not mean that we shouldn't keep monitoring and making improvements where necessary. The Federal electoral system seems to embrace such a policy.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:24 PM
    smoothy
    It doesn't take much fraud to destroy any sense of legitimacy in an election.

    I think it played a big part in getting Obama elected. (remember ACORN).. and it certainly had a part in getting Al Frankin elected (the trunkload of "Forgotten" ballots in a Democrats trunk that SURPRISE were mostly Democrat votes), I just don't have the means to prove it. And if I did.. I don't have the power to do anything about it.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:38 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    I bet Australia allows all the illigals from Malaysia and China (and everywhere else they are from) Vote there... ( sarcasm font enabled)

    Incidentally... "living there" isn't the requirement to vote in almost every country in the world... being a citizen is.

    Odd coming from a country and person that thinks private citizens should NOT be allowed to have guns..... but thinks legalizing drugs is a great idea.

    How about opening your borders up to all those Illegals coming there....I know you aren't any happier about then doing that than most Americans are.

    I'm sorry smoothy, didn't I have the sarcasm font engaged. No we have that great idea that you establish your bonafides before gaining citizenship something those "asylum seekers" have difficulty in doing. By the way, the "asylum seekers come from Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, places where thare has been war, not China, Mayalasia or Indonesia. As to the gun thing, once again distance has deprived you of the facts, private citizens can own guns, they can't own assault weapons.

    I think legalising drugs may change the dynamic. not that it is a great idea but one way of combatting the criminal activity associated with the drug traffic and by the way, I don't think our government will be legalising it anytime soon.

    No we are not going to open our borders any more than you are going to do. In those immortal words of John Howard "we will decide who comes here and the circumstances under which they come". We are not going to repeat the free for all policies you had last century because, simply put, we don't have the ability to absorb large numbers of migrants. You have to demonstrate you can contribute and few "asylum seekers" possess that ability
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:49 PM
    smoothy
    I actually think you are Less likely to do it than we are here.. at least for the next few years. We have incompetent boobs in charge for at least another couple years... that think they can rule by decree.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:55 PM
    paraclete
    There are incompetent boobs in all governments, we recently got rid of a large number of them, but they are like weeds.

    Ruling by decree seems to be in fashion these days, we have a government who announces what they are going to do without the ability to get their policies into law, sound familiar? so what's a government to do?
  • Mar 10, 2014, 07:57 PM
    smoothy
    But I think our boobs are bigger than your boobs... Doesn't THAT sound so Hollywood.
  • Mar 10, 2014, 08:11 PM
    paraclete
    sounds like the words of a song actually but then everytung is bigger in Taxas
  • Mar 11, 2014, 02:44 AM
    Tuttyd
    I would like to get back to the nub of the issue. From the onset let me say that I am no fan of PP. However, my political persuasion is exactly the problem. Why? Because, it leads to the inevitability of my political views being flung to the left or the right.

    As I said before, PP in all likelihood does not have a eugenics programme in place. In fact, no organization in this day and age would want to make such a claim. Any research in this area would likely turn up the fact that PP policies are actually contributing to a type of eugenics.This is completely different to saying that PP has a eugenics agenda. Once I put forward this possibility it seemed like a good chance for some to ignore, change or modify the topic.

    The left wing is not prepared to consider this possibility because it would mean giving some ground to the right wing. The right wing will not consider this because it would mean giving some ground to the left wing. So what is the alternative? The alternative is simple-fling these view to the far right and far left.

    Is there any particular reason why anyone can't see there is a real problem with your media? Please spare us the right wing and left wing rhetoric.
  • Mar 11, 2014, 04:26 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    Is there any particular reason why anyone can't see there is a real problem with your media? Please spare us the right wing and left wing rhetoric.

    You are absolutely correct. I don't see it as limited to "our" media; BBC vs. Sky News being an offshore example. Al-Jazeera being another (Al Jazeera Journalist Calls Out Network Bias). Many have even delved into the causes of the problem, citing '24 hour news cycle' and 'info-tainment' as the roots of the problem. The only solution available to me is multiple sources for news intake.
  • Mar 11, 2014, 04:51 AM
    talaniman
    Its easy for facts to get muddled in politics and rhetoric. Multiple sources of news is almost a must, especially when researching what's reported and said during an election cycle and finding many contradictions, and exaggerations. PP has been vilified as an abortion mill and made a target, but in shutting down and restricting the abortions part, which is not its major service, you also shut down many other services like referrals for disease and treatments like breast cancer that a poorer population has need of.

    Especially given the southern states that have the population of the most need and the weakest safety net and not coincidently the most uninsured. Forget the headlines and rhetoric, it's the data that sheds the most light, as filtered as it is sometimes.
  • Mar 11, 2014, 05:09 AM
    smoothy
    And that "DATA"... more and more is subject to critisizm as more and more BS gets posted on the internet and other sources that is unproven and ungrounded. CBS got caught red handed with RatherGate where they fabricated "evidence" to support the story they wanted to push. How many more have not been found out.....the truth is lots more.

    THe media is biased and corrupt everywhere... and as bad as I've seen it here... its even worse in Europe. As I've actually lived there and know that to be a fact... I have no reason to believe its any different anywhere else. Or seen proof that its NOT the same everywhere else.
  • Mar 11, 2014, 05:16 AM
    paraclete
    Muddled facts could there be anything more muddled than PP. Given the rate of abortion I think the idea has failed unless you think that is more of a plan than an afterthought

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