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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I can't figure you out. On the one hand, you don't like MORALS being taught along side sex education, unless they're YOUR morals.

What happened to your earlier suggestion about letting the parent teach the morals, and let the schools teach what goes where, like 2 + 2 = 4?

The problem is, as you have stated before, you think teaching them what goes where IS teaching them morals, AND it's cluing them in on something they would NEVER try if they weren't taught. BOTH of those propositions are actually quite silly.

excon

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Again, the only person to discuss morals in this entire thread is YOU. I have stuck to facts and figures. YOU keep getting distracted by morals. And you cannot answer my points without getting lost in a moral argument because you cannot answer my points. There is no answer for them. You know I'm right.

You said that it is good for schools to tell kids what's what. I said that would be fine if they actually DID tell them what's what, but they don't. They leave out anything having to do with consequences. They therefore aren't giving kids the whole truth as you claim they do.

Instead of making some sort of argument about how they DO talk about consequences, you instead go off on some tangent about "my" morals, which I never talked about in the first place. Simply put, you have no response to my argument that sex ed in schools does not tell the whole truth, so you are trying to distract from that argument by engaging my morals.

I'm not going to let you.

Stick to the argument, or else admitt that you, as usual, can't counter my point and have no response.

If you don't answer that point, I will assume that you have no answer, and that I win. Again. As usual.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

They leave out anything having to do with consequences. They therefore aren't giving kids the whole truth as you claim they do.

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Hello again, El:

I know this is beyond your ability to grasp, but I'm going to give it another shot:

CONSEQUENCES connote something BAD happened to incur them. That's as moral a discussion as there is. I know you don't get it. I can't help that.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I know this is beyond your ability to grasp, but I'm gonna give it another shot:

CONSEQUENCES connote something BAD happened to incur these consequences. That's as moral a discussion as there is. I know you don't get it. I can't help that.

excon

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Consequences are not MORAL. Consequences are the natural outcomes of an action taken.

If one sticks his finger in a light socket, the consequence is that he is going to be shocked. If one walks outside in the rain, the consequence is that he or she will get wet and MIGHT catch a cold. That consequence connotes no MORALITY. It simply is the effect of the action taken.

Consequences can be bad or good. The consequence of studying hard and working hard is success. The consequence of not studying for a test is failing the test.

You are confusing the term "consequence" with "punishment" and "reward". PUNISHMENT and REWARD connote issues of morality. Consequence does not. I have not discussed punishment or reward. I have stuck to the issue of consequences.

So... back to the point at hand. Having sex has natural consequences. Sex ed eliminates the discussion of those consequences. Therefore sex ed does not give kids the entire truth. This is not a moral issue, this is an issue of fact.

So, now that we know that consequences are not an issue of morality (people don't get pregnant or get STDs because they are good or bad, they get pregnant or get STDs because they had sex/sexual contact), and now that we know that sex ed doesn't teach about those consequences, it becomes clear, even to you, that sex ed leaves much of the truth out of their curriculum.

So again, stop trying to turn this into a moral issue. It isn't about morals. It's about teaching the truth, which sex ed doesn't do.

Elliot

Does anyone honestly think that not giving kids an education on sex will stop them from having sex?

Would you rather these kids not learn about birth control and condoms? They're going to do it whether you inform them or not. Someone is going to teach them, believe me. Not teaching them is like sending them out with a loaded gun and not teaching them how to aim and fire. I'd rather teach them then be sorry.

Sex is a natural thing. Teens are walking balls of hormones willing to screw anything that looks at them the right way. Personally, I'd rather they be armed with knowledge and protection.

Teaching your children morals is great, and hopefully it will sink in. But, are you with them 24/7? Are they in a bubble? If not, then you have to worry about what they're learning from their friends, their peers, because I can tell you right now, their buddy isn't going to say "Oh, wait until marriage, it will be so much better". No, they'll be saying "all the cool kids are doing it, don't you want to be cool?"

Don't you remember being a teen? I do.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Does anyone honestly think that not giving kids an education on sex will stop them from having sex?

Would you rather these kids not learn about birth control and condoms? They're going to do it whether you inform them or not.

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What a cop out. That's how we effect change for the better, just throw our freakin' hands up and surrender.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Does anyone honestly think that not giving kids an education on sex will stop them from having sex?

Would you rather these kids not learn about birth control and condoms? They're going to do it whether you inform them or not. Someone is going to teach them, believe me. Not teaching them is like sending them out with a loaded gun and not teaching them how to aim and fire. I'd rather teach them then be sorry.

Sex is a natural thing. Teens are walking balls of hormones willing to screw anything that looks at them the right way. Personally, I'd rather they be armed with knowledge and protection.

Teaching your children morals is great, and hopefully it will sink in. But, are you with them 24/7? Are they in a bubble? If not, then you have to worry about what they're learning from their friends, their peers, because I can tell you right now, their buddy isn't going to say "Oh, wait until marriage, it will be so much better". No, they'll be saying "all the cool kids are doing it, don't you want to be cool?"

Don't you remember being a teen? I do.

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I remember being a teen. I also remember being a virgin on my wedding night. So was my wife.

Going back to the argument I have been making, Altenweg, kids who have not had sex ed actually are less likely to have sex than kids who do.

Like I said before, back in the 30s-60s there were fewer kids having sex, fewer teen pregnancies and fewer cases of STD transmission.

Then along came sex ed in schools. We were told that there was a problem with kids having sex and getting pregnant, and that sex ed would keep them from having sex, getting pregnant and passing along STDs. Sex ed became the new solution to a problem we didn't even have yet.

As the years passed, more kids were getting pregnant, more teens were having sex, and more kids were getting STDs. Sex ed may not have been CAUSING the problem, but it most assuredly wasn't preventing it either, despite the promisses that it would. And so, pro-sex-ed people decided that they needed to take Drastic Action to prevent more teen pregnancies. They were going to hand out condoms to kids.

The result? Ever increasing numbers of kids having sex, getting pregnant, having abortions and getting sick.

The problem is that sex ed doesn't work.

As I have discussed in this thread before, sex ed alone cannot eliminate teen sex. The problem with sex ed is that it teaches kids the mechanics of sex, but doesn't teach them the consequences of sex. If you tell kids "this is how you have sex 'safely', and boy does it feel good", but never tell them about what STDs can do to you, what happens to an aborted fetus, what can happen to a girl who has a child out of wedlock, or any other consequences of sex (mental, emotional, physical) all you are doing is inviting them to have sex. Many of them will forget the condom in the heat of the moment. Many others will use the condom or the pill, but they will be the unlucky ones for whom they are in effective.

The problem with sex ed in schools is the lack of a "fear factor". Kids are never taught a healthy fear of the consequences of sex. So they end up having sex when they otherwise might not have.

You, like so many others, have argued that "teens have sex, there's no way to stop it". Why do you believe that? We have seen in recent years that the media campaigns against teen smoking, teen drinking and teen drug use have all resulted in significantly lower incidence of these bad behaviors. Why do you believe that a media campaign against teen sex wouldn't also have an effect? If it works for drugs, drinking and smoking, why wouldn't it work for sex? Why are we so sure that teen sex is a fait accompli, when we have evidence that there is something that will work to teach kids abstinence from sex just like it teaches abstinence from drugs, alcohol and tobacco?

We see that sex ed in schools isn't working. It is, in fact, failing miserably at its goal of stopping teen sex and teen pregnancy and teen STD, if the statistics are to be believed. Why are you continuing to support something that clearly doesn't work when you have another option to try?

Why are you so set on sex ed in schools?

Elliot

Elliot, Altenweg is so set on it because they're going to do it anyway. So instead of trying to change things for the better we just surrender. And if that ain't enough, the government has a backup plan. The 9th Circus Court just overturned an injunction that prevented the State of Washington from penalizing privately owned pharmacies for refusing to sell the "morning after" pill.

Let's force sex ed on our children against the wishes of parents, force private businesses to sell a specific item and overrule the first amendment in the process. Welcome to the left's concept of "rights" and "freedom."

I believe the case will not end with the 9ths ruling .Anyway ;it only overturns the injuction .They did not make a decision on the case because it still has to be decided in district court .But given the track record of the loony 9th if the ruling is against the phramacy owner an appeal will be struck down.

This case could be destined for a SCOTUS decision. A store owner has the right to stock or not stock any legal item. This is even more important than the Freedom of Religion argument .Do store owners have the right to decide which products and services they provide ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Do store owners have the right to decide which products and services they provide ?

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Hello tom:

We've had this discussion before. Sure a store owner has the right to decide which products to sell. However, if he wishes to be licensed by the state, the state can require him to meet the needs of the citizens of the state. If he doesn't wish to do that, he can certainly open up a dollar store. I don't think anybody will tell him what he can and can't sell there.

Does the state have the power to regulate the activities of the business's which it licenses? I would say yes. You, I guess not.

excon

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I believe the case will not end with the 9ths ruling .Anyway ;it only overturns the injuction .They did not make a decision on the case because it still has to be decided in district court .But given the track record of the loony 9th if the ruling is against the phramacy owner an appeal will be struck down.

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I believe they are the most overturned circuit court. Surely this kind of nonsense won't pass muster.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

We've had this discussion before. Sure a store owner has the right to decide which products to sell. However, if he wishes to be licensed by the state, the state can require him to meet the needs of the citizens of the state. If he doesn't wish to do that, he can certainly open up a dollar store. I don't think anybody will tell him what he can and can't sell there.

Does the state have the power to regulate the activities of the business's which it licenses? I would say yes. You, I guess not.

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The state often tells businesses things it can't sell, since when do they have the power to tell a business what they MUST sell? Do they force doctors to perform abortions? There's nothing medically necessary that I'm aware of that would require FORCING a pharmacy to sell Plan B any more than there would be a medically necessary reason to FORCE a doctor to prescribe it. The "needs" of the citizens in this case can be met in other ways or by other willing providers so there is no necessity to enact such a requirement.

Schools and doctors hand them out like candy to kids.

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Originally Posted by excon

Does the state have the power to regulate the activities of the business's which it licenses? I would say yes. You, I guess not.

excon

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Certainly the government has the POWER to regulate the activities of those businesses.

But does it have the RIGHT?

Different question entirely... and the answer depends on whether you are a conservative or a statist. A conservative would say that the government does not have that right, that control of industry is left in the hands of the people, not the state. The statist would argue that the government has not only the right, but the responsibility to control what businesses do, and the people have no freedoms of their own to make those choices.

Let's see if we can guess which of those two you go for, excon.

Elliot

Do they have the right to do a lot of things they have been doing?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

But who decides who the 3rd party is? The government? The same guys who screw up the mail and social security? Or should PARENTS make that decision for their kids?

THAT is my point.

As for your prior points, the stated goal of sex ed is to prevent teen sex, teen pregnancies and STD spread. YOUR goal is for kids to be safe and happy, but that is NOT what the goal of sex ed is. And sex ed has failed in its STATED GOAL.

Now... if you want to argue that the stated goal of sex ed is wrong, I'll be happy to discuss that issue with you. But that is NOT my point. My point is that sex ed has failed to do what it said it would do. The statistics on teen sex, teen pregnancy and STD spread prove that they failed.

You have argued that we can't stop teens from having sex, so we might as well make them safe and teach them the right way to do it.

I disagree with that.

For years people said that we can't stop kids from smoking, drinking and doing drugs. Then there came various government and private organizations that started advertising programs to keep kids from drinking, smoking and doing drugs. These programs have been very successful. Teen drinking, drug use and smoking are all down by HUGE numbers compared to what they were a decade ago. Drunk driving accidents are down too. Are they wiped out? No. But they are better than they were. We are seeing with teen drinking, teen drug use, and teen smoking, what affect we can have if we use the power of the media to teach kids the right thing.

So, if it works for teen drugs, drinking and smoking, why can't it work for sex? Why can't we have an anti-teen-sex advertising campaign similar to the anti-drug and anti-tabaco campaigns? If it worked and is continuing to work in those other areas? Why not teach abstinence in a media advertising campaign? Why have we given up teaching kids about not having sex when we don't give up on drugs and smoking and drinking?

Do you understand what I'm saying, kaseyatim? We have decided to do sex ed in schools because we supposedly can't stop kids from having sex. But we haven't even really tried to stop them. We haven't tried the same techniques to teen sex that we have to teen drug use and teen drinking and teen smoking. We've just given up for no good reason because it is a good excuse to allow sex ed in schools. Shouldn't we try something besides sex ed in schools to stop kids from having sex in the first place?

Elliot

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As crazy as it may sound the teen chooses who that 3rd party will be , we cannot choose for them who they will listen to and understand better it may be a school counselor, dr. neighbor, family friend, parent whoever can get through to them could be third party.

I agree that we should have the ads to stop teen pregnancy that is a good idea and maybe you should tell that piece to someone who could make it happen, it only takes one voice to start a song you know. Although not to debate that the other ads haven't helped, but who is saying that teens have slowed down thamount of drugs they are doing who is reporting these statistics? The teens themselves admitting to it , or the drug dealers selling it to them or what I mean how many teens are going to honestly admit to doing drugs? And how many dope dealers are going to admit to selling to a teen?? That will be the ONLY place you will get TRUE statistics from!

I think the 1st priority would need to be to stop them from having sex but also have the information available to those teens who are not willing to be completely abstinent.. I do not think that sex ED should stop or be removed or is a bad it is very good for them to have more than one option of people who they feel comforatable going to. Some teens don't even have parents or if it is a young girl with only a father or a young boy with only a mother its hard to listen to one of the opposite sex I mean there is so many reasons that they don't talk to their parents just like you probably have certain people you won't talk to about certain things they are humans too... I have my ex-boyfriends little sister who talks to me about sex (virgin @ 16) and she know she can have full trust and confidence and I would never lead her in the wrong direction and I am not her parents, or school staff but I am just that 3rd party... do you get where I am going with the 3rd party business...

And just Kasey is fine lol

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The state often tells businesses things it can't sell, since when do they have the power to tell a business what they MUST sell? Do they force doctors to perform abortions? There's nothing medically necessary that I'm aware of that would require FORCING a pharmacy to sell Plan B any more than there would be a medically necessary reason to FORCE a doctor to prescribe it. The "needs" of the citizens in this case can be met in other ways or by other willing providers so there is no necessity to enact such a requirement.

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WOW subject changed I am lost!!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Sex ed that doesn't tell kids that sex results in pregnancy? What sex ed is this??????

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When I was in school they emphasized that *you can make a baby , even if its your first time and it only takes one time*

Ex ;if I open a liquor store I can pick which brands of booze I sell . If I choose not to stock beer that may very well hurt my business . But I have the right to do so. The law in question would have me direct a patron to a store that sells beer which is absurd itself .

By not stocking the product I am not denying a person from obtaining the product ;just that they would not be able to purchase it from me.

Like I said ;this has broader implications than the whole religious issue .

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Originally Posted by kaseyatim

WOW subject changed I am lost!!!

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We never seem to stay on track. But the point of my OP remains, pregnancies DOUBLED under this UK plan to curb teen pregnancy and the alleged success of the NY program it was modeled after hasn't been replicated anywhere else.

OK ex, you wondered who was advocating for kids to have sex, the UK's NHS does.

NHS chiefs have been slammed after telling school children: “An orgasm a day keeps the doctor away.”

A controversial leaflet — titled Pleasure — has been handed out to parents, teachers and youth workers in a bid to modernise sex education.

It highlights the health benefits of frequent action between the sheets and suggests teens have a “right” to a sex life.

The leaflet says: “Health promotion experts advocate five portions of fruit and veg a day and 30 minutes’ physical activity three times a week.

“What about sex or masturbation twice a week?”

The pamphlet was drawn up by NHS Sheffield. Steve Slack, director of its HIV and sexual health clinic, said properly informed teens had as much right to physical relationships as adults.

But teachers branded the leaflet “deplorable”.

Deplorable indeed. No wonder they get twice the pregnancies while trying to reduce them.

It is specifically aimed at professionals and parents. It gives ideas for how to talk about the pleasure aspect of sex in a sex-ed situation.

It's the National Health Service in the sense that it is produced by a small regional HIV and sexual health center that comes under the NHS umbrella.

But since that is not the curriculum in the US then it's a red herring.

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Like I said before, back in the 30s-60s there were fewer kids having sex, fewer teen pregnancies and fewer cases of STD transmission.

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Not true. Teens had sex, they just didn't talk about it. Pregnancise occurred and the couple were either forced to marry right away or the girl was sent away to give birth and then give the child up for adoption. Heck, a lot of my friends born in the 60's are adopted, born to teen moms. There goes that theory.

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I remember being a teen. I also remember being a virgin on my wedding night. So was my wife.

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Congratulations. You're not the norm, you should be proud. My parents, both raised with morals, church going, no sex ed, they had sex before marriage. I had sex before marriage. Where's that scarlet letter? ;)

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As the years passed, more kids were getting pregnant, more teens were having sex, and more kids were getting STDs. Sex ed may not have been CAUSING the problem, but it most assuredly wasn't preventing it either, despite the promisses that it would. And so, pro-sex-ed people decided that they needed to take Drastic Action to prevent more teen pregnancies. They were going to hand out condoms to kids.

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Sex ed isn't the problem, it's the kids. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just because you teach abstinence doesn't mean they'll abstain. Just because you teach safe sex doesn't mean they'll actually use the condom you put in their hand.

Again, read the teen forums on this site. If I had a penny for every 16 something that came on this site and said "I had unprotected sex, could I be pregnant" I would be rich.

Obviously that kids school didn't teach safe sex and pass out condoms, either that, or, like every teen out there, she thinks she's invincible and it won't happen to her.

Teaching is not the problem, it's the students that are the problem and the parents that want to pretend that we're still living in the 30's.

Keep your kids out of the loop. Scare the crap out of them, make them think sex is evil, bad and shouldn't be enjoyed. Either that or hope that by not talking about sex they'll abstain, wait until they're married.

Leave your rosecolored glasses on. Tell me how that works for you when your daughter tells you she's on the pill and having sex with her boyfriend at the age of 15. Because it's not likely that your kids will follow in your footsteps, unless you live on a mountain in the middle of no where.

So what's your answer Elliot? What about the kids who's parents aren't like you?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ml#post1851313

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It is specifically aimed at professionals and parents. It gives ideas for how to talk about the pleasure aspect of sex in a sex-ed situation.

It's the National Health Service in the sense that it is produced by a small regional HIV and sexual health center that comes under the NHS umbrella.

But since that is not the curriculum in the US then it's a red herring.

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LOL, nothing is relevant to you NK. But since the OP is based on a story out of the UK (and I should know, it was my thread) it's entirely relevant. Why don't you become relevant for a change?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Not true. Teens had sex, they just didn't talk about it. Pregnancise occured and the couple were either forced to marry right away or the girl was sent away to give birth and then give the child up for adoption. Heck, alot of my friends born in the 60's are adopted, born to teen moms. There goes that theory.Count the numbers! For goodness sakes you are suppose to be an expert and don't have a clue. Teen pregnancy has been on the rise since the NEA and Government got involved. No one ever claimed that kids never had sex in the 30,40,50. But the incident of teen pregnancy sure was a lot less back then. STD's was almost unheard of except in prostitutes.



Congratulations. You're not the norm, you should be proud. My parents, both raised with morals, church going, no sex ed, they had sex before marriage. I had sex before marriage. Where's that scarlet letter? ;)



Sex ed isn't the problem, it's the kids. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just because you teach abstinence doesn't mean they'll abstain. Just because you teach safe sex doesn't mean they'll actually use the condom you put in their hand. That's the whole point, Sex Education IS the problem. Back in the old (my) day sex was learned a lot of different ways. Did not matter though we seemed to be able to repopulate the earth every generation without much trouble

Again, read the teen forums on this site. If I had a penny for every 16 something that came on this site and said "I had unprotected sex, could I be pregnant" I would be rich.Since the sex education as taught by schools does not work, maybe it is time to teach abstinence for a change and see how that works out

Obviously that kids school didn't teach safe sex and pass out condoms, either that, or, like every teen out there, she thinks she's invincible and it won't happen to her.Exactly. Teens today are a lost society. Look at the suicide rates among teens. Peer pressure is pushing them to doing things and experimenting far younger than in my day. Couple that with a society that is addicted to sex and you have an epomedic on your hands.

Teaching is not the problem, it's the students that are the problem and the parents that want to pretend that we're still living in the 30's.Your right almost. It is the lack of proper teaching. But why is it the governments place to teach children as young as 8 about sex?

Go ahead and keep your kids out of the loop. Scare the crap out of them, make them think sex is evil, bad and shouldn't be enjoyed. Either that or hope that by not talking about sex they'll abstain, wait until they're married. Like I have advocated before if parents are not involved in their childrens education they are failing as parents. If I had school age children today, I would be reviewing the curriculum in every class they attended and would not let them attend thise I found not relivent or improper or against my religious beliefs. Every parent should be also.

Leave your rosecolored glasses on. Tell me how that works for you when your daughter tells you she's on the pill and having sex with her boyfriend at the age of 15. Because it's not likely that your kids will follow in your footsteps, unless you live on a mountain in the middle of no where.

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If parents teach their children moral values and to take responsibility for their actions you would probably see a dramatic fall in teen pregnancy and STD's. When you have parents that are drugged out or too busy getting drunk or trying to screw every neighbor, how can children do anything different?

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Originally Posted by 450donn

If parents teach their children moral values and to take responsibility for their actions you would probably see a dramatic fall in teen pregnancy and STD's. When you have parents that are drugged out or too busy getting drunk or trying to screw every neighbor, how can children do anything different?

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They cant... SO, someone else needs to teach them these things.. Seems logical to me that it is their teacher.

You make a good point. One that seems lost on Elliot. Just because his kids grow up learning these things from him in his strict Orthodox Jewish household, doesn't mean all kids do. What about them? Just let God take care of it?

No, someone needs to show some guidance to these kids.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Since the sex education as taught by schools does not work, maybe it is time to teach abstinence for a change and see how that works out

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Just wanted to point out here, my school taught abstinence only... didnt do a bit of good... the numbers were still the same