Ask Me Help Desk - When did luxury items become a right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

The case of the young man who went into the VA hospital for removal of his gall bladder.

He lost both his legs, but still has his gall bladder.

Does that bother any of you who argue for the government to control the how, when, where, and who of our health care?

Hello gal:

Sure, I'm bothered for the kid. You're not suggesting, though, that these catastrophic events only happen in GOVERNMENT hospitals, are you?? Nahhh, you're not.

Here's what bothers me MORE. It's that you righty's want to take away these peoples right to sue, and sue BIG - SO BIG, so as to insure that the offending doctor NEVER practices again.

Do YOU want to send your family to a doctor who did stuff like that, and only got slapped on the wrist? With tort reform, you could.

Besides, if YOUR kid got maimed, you wouldn't be so supportive of caps on the award, would you? Nahhh, I don't think you would...

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Sure. It's in the Ninth Amendment. That's where all the rights that weren't enumerated in the previous eight amendments can be found. In fact, the Ninth Amendment says that exact thing. Doesn't it??? What do you think Jefferson meant when he said in the Declaration, "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life , Liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

It says that we have a RIGHT to life. That's a term you should be familiar with. If we have a right to life, and you're sick, seems to me you have a right to get better. If it takes a doctor to make that happen, so be it. What do YOU think it means?

Why didn't anybody notice it before now??? Well, it's like the right for gays to get married. Nobody asked about it before.

excon

As the article I posted points out, there are many things that are MORE IMPORTANT to the existence of life than health care. Food, clothing and shelter are the three big ones.

Does anyone have a "right" to food?

Does anyone have a "right" to clothing?

Does anyone have a "right" to shelter?

Nope.

And as we have discussed before, the 9th Amendment doesn't create rights. Never has and never will. Your interpretation of the 9th Amendment is wrong and has been proven so time and again.

Again, if this right to health care exists, how come it was never talked about, fought for, given, taken away, or otherwise mentioned at any time in history?

How can a right that has never existed suddenly be made to exist?

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

How can a right that has never existed suddenly be made to exist?

Hello again, El:

I agree with you. Rights cannot be created. They can only be recognized. What?? You think the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment DIDN'T exist before we wrote about it?? Of course it existed.

excon

Right is not the proper word . There is no Right to health care .There may be a need for health care .But that doesn't make it a right .

What is clear in the Constitution is that the Federal Government delineates few and limited powers to the central government .
People can claim the right to health care all day long and there still would be no constitutional mandate for the Federal Government to provide it. If there is then please show me where it says the government has the authority to pick our pockets to provide health care to anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

if there is then please show me where it says the government has the authority to pick our pockets to provide health care to anyone else.

Hello again, tom:

I don't know. Where does it say that the government can take your money to provide police protection for others, or fire protection, or roads, or land fills, or water treatment centers?? When you find that stuff, health care is included.

excon

It doesn't .Most of those services you mention are provided by local governments... not the national government .

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I agree with you. Rights cannot be created. They can only be recognized. What???? You think the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment DIDN'T exist before we wrote about it???? Of course it existed.

excon

Yep. The right to be free of cruel and inhuman punishment did exist before it was written about in the Constitution.

Remember that whole thing about Moses taking the Jews out of slavery in Egypt... that was an excersize in being free from cruel and unusual punishment. That was one of the earliest examples recorded of the exercize of that right.

The right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment has an historical basis. Wars have been fought because of it. Nations have been built in its defense. Sparta (and by extension all of Greece) came into existence as a defense against cruel and unusual punishment. It exists and was fought for long before the USA ever came along. It didn't just pop into existence. It is, in fact, one of the founding principals that created most of the nations in history... whether they continued to practice that right or not, they were often founded to escape cruel and unhuman punishment of some sort.

Now... can you show me an historical or even a legal basis for a right to health care?

Elliot

Man I'd love to live in a country where basic healthcare was a right for all citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Man I'd love to live in a country where basic healthcare was a right for all citizens.

Yes... it would be nice. But such a place doesn't exist.

IF it was a right, you wouldn't have to pay for it. It would just be there.

Do you pay for your right to free speech? Or your right to free worship?

Elliot

Nah I don't pay for those rights. But I have no problem contributed to a right to universal healthcare for all. And that place does exist - in pretty much all modern societies except the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nah I don't pay for those rights. But I have no problem contributed to a right to universal healthcare for all. And that place does exist - in pretty much all modern societies except the US.

How much do you pay in taxes again?

Countries with nationalized health care have tax rates that start in the 60% range (including national and local taxes), and go as high as 80% in some places.

TANSTAAFL

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Nothing's free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

IF it was a right, you wouldn't have to pay for it. It would just be there. Do you pay for your right to free speech? Or your right to free worship?

Hello again, El:

Do you pay for your guns?

excon

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Do you pay for your guns?

excon

I don't pay for the RIGHT to own a gun. I pay for the hardware. The right's free.

Unlike health care... you have to pay for that. It ain't a right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

$1500/month while on COBRA. Less when an employer is paying part of it. That's why I know it's not a right.

Give it up Elliot, NK's got you there. There's no sense in arguing about any of it anyway because we dumb Americans are too stupid to understand anyway.

We're the problem, if it weren't for us bitter, clingy simpletons we could be living in a modern paradise like NK. So we should just shut up and let them do their job.

And wouldn't you know it, as soon as I post about we dumb Americans that don't understand it all up pops a video where Andrea Mitchell tells us that people who have insurance and oppose Obamacare “may not know what’s good for them.”

I am so thankful we have liberal Democrats in charge to dictate what's best for the unwashed, peasant masses, aren't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

Might that be because you are not taxed to support a military establishment? If you had to pay for your health care AND your military, would you be doing well financially?

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello gal:

Sure, I'm bothered for the kid. You're not suggesting, though, that these catastrophic events only happen in GOVERNMENT hospitals, are you??? Nahhh, you're not.

Here's what bothers me MORE. It's that you righty's want to take away these peoples right to sue, and sue BIG - SO BIG, so as to insure that the offending doctor NEVER practices again.

Do YOU want to send your family to a doctor who did stuff like that, and only got slapped on the wrist? With tort reform, you could.

Besides, if YOUR kid got maimed, you wouldn't be so supportive of caps on the award, would you? Nahhh, I don't think you would....

excon

You defeat your own argument here.

You can't sue a VA hospital, that would be suing the government, and that AIN'T going to happen.

You knew that, though.

Yep... NK's got me there. His health care is free. He's giving most of what he earns to the government in taxes, he gets to wait on line for just about everything medical, but his health care's free.

Canada's a utopia, doncha know. No guns, no crime, free health care for everyone, and they've got that nifty national anthem. Not to mention the Mounties in those really cool uniforms.

I wish I was NK...

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Yep... NK's got me there. His health care is free. He's giving most of what he earns to the government in taxes

Wrong. I keep most of what I earn. Did you not read my post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

he gets to wait on line for just about everything medical

Absolutely not, another one of your lies.
Read up on American wait times though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

but his health care's free.

I just explained it to you above, are you dim? You are the only one who repeats that it's free. We pay for it from our taxes.

My opposition to the health care being proposed here is that it puts virtually everything evern remotely related to my health and existence in the hands of government bureaucrats.

That is NOT freedom.

And it has nothing to do with Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

My opposition to the health care being proposed here is that it puts virtually everything evern remotely related to my health and existence in the hands of government bureaucrats.

Another one of the neocon FUD tactics being repeated. Is your insurance rep making all the decisions concerning your health or is it your doctor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Another one of the neocon FUD tactics being repeated. Is your insurance rep making all the desicions concerning your health or is it your doctor?

At 71, I have very few health issues, but as far as I can tell, the decisions are being made by me and my doctor. I've never been turned down for a test that we felt I needed, and I can say the same for my wife, who has more problems than I do.

If you look at everything that the present bill calls for, it goes FAR beyond mere health care and moves into the realm of HEALTH CONTROL.

That is NOT freedom.

And it's WAY too expensive.

PS: Why should you as a Canadian care one way or the other what kind of health care we have down here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

At 71, I have very few health issues, but as far as I can tell, the decisions are being made by me and my doctor. I've never been turned down for a test that we felt I needed, and I can say the same for my wife, who has more problems than I do.

If you look at everthing that the present bill calls for, it goes FAR beyond mere health care and moves into the realm of HEALTH CONTROL.

That is NOT freedom.

And it's WAY too expensive.

PS: Why should you as a Canadian care one way or the other what kind of health care we have down here?

Just as an observer, I think NK cares because many of you are bashing the Canadian Health Care system and he/she is defending it based on his/her own personal experience. It's like you don't believe him/her or something? I don't know if a one payer system is the correct answer or not. Mainly because we haven't been informed of the particulars. What I do know for sure though is that the present US system sucks big time. And that is about as eloquently as I can put it. Sad really. So full of gaps, way over inflated cost for services and insurance, limited to those that can afford it or who just happen to have a job where the employer pays part. Lose that job, lose your health ins. Cobra, also too expensive. It's a pathetic joke.

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're going to do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're gonna do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

The Dems put it into those 1100 pages.

I haven't read the full text, but from the excerpts I've seen, it's downright scary. Couple that with the Democrat penchant of growing government and deficits, I fully TRUST them to do what they do best.

And that scares me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I just wish the Democrats would tell us what they're gonna do, and I wish the Republicans would stop lying about it.

excon

They HAVE told us what they're going to do. They just don't want to give you the time to read it. They want this 1000+ page monstrosity to be passed before you get the time to find out what's in it.

The bottom line is that Reps aren't lying about what's in the bill, and Dems HAVE told us what's in it. That's why we're so strongly against it... cause we know what it says.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Wrong. I keep most of what I earn. Did you not read my post?

Absolutely not, another one of your lies.
Read up on American wait times though.
I just explained it to you above, are you dim? You are the only one who repeats that it's free. We pay for it from our taxes.

Regarding American wait times...

Yeah, I definitely think that waiting 4 weeks for a surgical procedure or a theraputic treatment is too long.

But then, what do you call waiting 18.3 weeks for the same treatments?

Or 38.1 weeks for orthopedic surgery?

Or 27.2 weeks for neurosurgery?

These were the averages in Canada in 2007.

I'm not lying, NK. I have sources for every factual statement I make.

And if my statements spread fear, uncertainty and doubt, perhaps that is what the public should be experiencing before they decide to go along with this insanity. Fear, uncertainty and doubt are good tools to keep you from doing something stupid. Fear, uncertainty and doubt are what are going to make sure we look before we leap.

As if "fear, uncertainty and doubt" aren't what the libs were spreading with regard to Bush for 8 years, and with regard to Palin now. At least we have factual information back up our positions... like the wait times in Canada and the UK for one.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

At least we have factual information back up our positions... like the wait times in Canada and the UK for one.

Hello again, El:

The problem with your "facts", is that you got 'em off that repudiated flow chart. So, your facts, AIN'T facts - they're PROPAGANDA.

excon

Ex, we don't need Republicans to lie about it, the Dems are lying about it enough themselves, they've perfected the art of the Trojan Horse. That's how they won Congress in 2006 and they haven't changed their ways since.

Here's Obama in his own words on what his plan is...

Here's Barney Frank and Harry Reid on the goal in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

The problem with your "facts", is that you got 'em off that repudiated flow chart. So, your facts, AIN'T facts - they're PROPAGANDA.

excon

No, I get them from the bill itself.

The chart is simply a flow chart of where the money will go, who will provide services to whom, and who is in charge of which agencies. It is a confusing mess, which is my point, but it doesn't give any information about how the plan would operate or how much it would cost.

For that information, you would need to go to the bill itself... which you are afraid to do, because you're afraid of finding out that we're right and your wrong. Though you really should be used to it by now.

As for my facts... like I say, I've always got a source for my factual statements. You tried to call me on not having a source last week, and you got your head handed to you. Haven't you learned your lesson yet?

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

ex, we don't need Republicans to lie about it, the Dems are lying about it enough themselves,

Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I don't know why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

It's a GREAT political phrase, though, and I think it's working. But, it AIN'T true.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I don't know why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

I'd challenge you to list the lies I've spread about Obamacare but I don't think you can name even one.

Quote:

I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

Let me put it in context for you. He's being questioned by someone from Single Payer Action, advocates for "single payer" health care, on why he won't just come right and push for it. His answer is to tell them he supports it but doesn't have the votes, "I'm all for it, I'm a big sponsor" are his words. He then says, "I think if we get a good public option it could lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer. Saying you'll do nothing until you get single payer is a sure way never to get it."

He is flat out saying this is the first step to single payer health care. Where's the lie?

Quote:

The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

No? This is coming from the guy who insists government being in the room with you and your doctor is no different than what we have now with insurance? You're slipping ex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I agree. You don't NEED to lie about it, so I dunno why you DO. But, you absolutely DO.

I went to the link you posted: HOT AIR where it says "Barney Frank: Yes, a public plan will lead to a government takeover of health care". But, THAT ISN'T what Barney Frank said. That's the HOT AIR people twisting it to say what THEY want it to say.

The fact is, single payer isn't a "government takeover of health care", any more than medicare was. That is propaganda, pure and simple.

It's a GREAT political phrase, though, and I think it's working. But, it AIN'T true.

excon

Yes, Medicare. I'm on it and it is working. But for how long?

Isn't that the one that is so badly broken that Washington doesn't know how to fix it?

There are already some doctors that will not accept medicare, I think.