The founding fathers understood well that outside of God, there is no compelling reason to view human life as special and valuable. It's why they appealed in the Declaration to the issue of "all men created equal", and then showed that all rights are God given and thus not subject to the whims of man. "...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable right, among which are LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

I have no idea why one cannot regard human life as beginning at conception. But if someone wants to speculate on a later date, then it can be considered. I find that most abortion supporters don't care to do that for reasons that were discussed earlier.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I am not taking a religious opinion on this ;either what Catholics believer or that business of dust to dust .

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Any anti-abortion position is based on religion as I wrote above. I don't know what dust to dust is.

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Please show me in the Dobbs v Jackson case where any of the justices made a religious case for Roe's reversal.

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I did not say the justices made a case for religion in reversing Roe. Alioto based it on his opinion that a right to privacy did not exist for lawful abortion. The Court sent the issue back to the states.

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Originally Posted by Athos

The religious position reversing Roe v. Wade by the US Supreme Court is a violation of the First Amendment. The preponderance of Catholic jurists on the Court is a strong indicator of the Court's reasoning.

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Too true and very obvious!

human life is not a clump of cells .
The science says human life begins at conception.

"The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

('Patten's Foundations of Embryology,' by biology professor Bruce M. Carlson of the University of Michigan)

Harvard University Medical School professor Micheline Matthews-Ross testified before a 1981 U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, "It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception … and that this developing human always is a member of our species in all stages of life"


“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life" " I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”
(Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania)


Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, discovered the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee :

"Science has proven that a new, human life begins at conception, at the moment when a human sperm attaches to a human egg, generally in the upper portion of the Fallopian Tube, it becomes something new, a Zygote. A zygote is the name of the first cell formed at conception, the earliest developmental stage of the human embryo. Therefore, the argument that a baby is not living upon conception is invalid if scientific evidence proves otherwise. “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.”

He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.”

Yeah, but what do they know? They're just a bunch of highly educated medical doctors.

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"Science has proven that a new, human life begins at conception, at the moment when a human sperm attaches to a human egg, generally in the upper portion of the Fallopian Tube, it becomes something new, a Zygote. A zygote is the name of the first cell formed at conception, the earliest developmental stage of the human embryo. Therefore, the argument that a baby is not living upon conception is invalid if scientific evidence proves otherwise. “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.”

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All that is needed from that point on is time. It is certainly alive, and it is certainly human, so in what sense would a person say it is not a living human being?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

All that is needed from that point on is time. It is certainly alive, and it is certainly human, so in what sense would a person say it is not a living human being?

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Your literalist, cherry-picking brain totally missed my "dust" analogy and turned it on its head.

No. I felt sorry for you and so just moved past that ridiculous nonsense.

Talk about being a name-caller. Here you are. "Your literalist, cherry-picking brain..." And that's in addition to being a completely ridiculous comment to begin with. I can always tell when you are trapped in your own comments. You have to appeal to me being a "literalist" and to cherry-picking, neither of which you understand to begin with.

Of course, you have no interest in asking what the heck I mean by the dust analogy. It's just another opportunity to deny your reality.

Either your memory is very bad or you are lying again. I asked you repeatedly for clarification and you always passed on it. For instance, here is one from post 31 where I asked you, "You are really trying to make the argument that a fetus has no more life than dust? Really??" Also in post 66 there was this. "Why not just "woman up" and try to defend that comment instead of lying about other people and trying to put your words into their mouths?"

You have passed on all of that since, it would appear, you really believe it. But I'll ask it again. Since it certainly seems that you have painted yourself into a corner with that statement, perhaps you should provide some clarification.

Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Post #49: "And how do repubs help those babies once they've taken their first breath, especially if they've been born into poverty and broken families or to teen mothers or to women whose birth control didn't work? Those babies become just so much dust to brush away."

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I don't know what dust to dust is.

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see above . I chose not to participate in that silliness

As has been repeatedly explained to you, Adam had no brainwaves, no heartbeat, no sensation to pain, no metabolism, and no other attributes of a living organism such as the unborn baby has. So when God breathed the breath of life into his body, not only did he start breathing, but all of the other life processes started at the same time. He was never an unborn baby. That made both him and Eve unique and thus unique events. Talk about cherry-picking, you have just provided a wonderful example of it!!

How do repubs help? Well, virtually all crisis pregnancy centers are run and funded by conservative, pro-life, and generally Christian organizations. How many of those are you helping to fund? Republicans routinely vote to fund school lunch and breakfast programs, public education, and welfare programs. I know because I saw all of that up close for more than thirty years as a school employee. And that is not to mention the thousands of charitable organizations, many funded and operated by Christian churches, who help out a great deal.

The only person I know of who considers babies to be dust is you. You have flatly stated it, and you have just passed on an opportunity to clarify your comment. How dark is the world you live in!!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As has been repeatedly explained to you, Adam had no brainwaves, no heartbeat, no sensation to pain, no metabolism, and no other attributes of a living organism such as the unborn baby has.

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Neither does a fetus before six weeks.

The fetus has ALL of the attributes of living organisms at ALL stages of development right from the beginning. That includes reproduction, metabolism, growth, cellular structure, movement, and a unique genetic structure. But I'm glad to see you finally acknowledge that the six week fetus does have a heartbeat. That's progress.

The Republican platform has deteriorated greatly during the past years since 1964 because of the election that defined the modern GOP.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/178881

Kind of hard to take any article seriously when it starts with a blatant lie. "President Donald Trump’s brazen flirtation with white supremacy finally blew up in the January 6 siege of Capitol Hill." It thus brands itself as a political hack job.

And so he did -- and now is knee deep in white supremacy with QAnon.

You are welcome to your opinion, but your facts are not correct. I'm no expert on QAnon, but I don't think they are generally regarded as white supremacists but are sometimes looked at as anti-Semitic. To suggest that Trump was a white supremacist is an allegation with no support. It's just another expression of TDS.

If there was any credible evidence that Trump instigated the 1/6 demonstration, then it would have already been printed as a headline in every newspaper in America.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If there was any credible evidence that Trump instigated the 1/6 demonstration, then it would have already been printed as a headline in every newspaper in America.

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You missed that???