NK Clete
Turns out you have less an understanding of the US system than I have of the Canadian .

I think that someone from Quebec should demand the same services the other provinces get. In fact;if anyone is denied any treatment or drug they should demand it because it's one of those unalienable rights you claim everyone has.

The truth is that here in the US nobody is denied needed food, housing ,education, or medical care . The safety net is designed however for the needy. What you think is needed is a larger safety net to cover the middle class and in the case of medical and "retirement" a universal safety net regardless of means.

That is unsustainable and you know it . Every western nation under that system will collapse under the burden eventually ;especially given the demographic trends of the West

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The truth is that here in the US nobody is denied needed food, housing ,education, or medical care .

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Hello tom:

Black is white and white is black... I don't know about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people... Maybe YOUR city is better than mine. Or maybe you just don't want to see those people.

The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

Black is white and white is black.... I dunno about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people.... Maybe YOUR city is better than mine. Or maybe you just don't wanna see those people.

The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.

excon

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Hospitals send homeless to new after-care program | hospital, bushay, patients - Life - The Orange County Register

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Hospitals send homeless to new after-care program

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Hello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I don't know about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I dunno about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon

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For shame. I thought you would find it interesting reading. It had bits about both sides including patient dumping etc. It seems to be more real world then a lot of hit pieces. And no there aren't homeless where I live. Heck there are more animals then people.. lol.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Hospitals send homeless to new after-care program | hospital, bushay, patients - Life - The Orange County Register

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Mmm, maybe Toronto's homeless (and some of them disabled) should come down there. Queen sized beds, TV, ultimate food experience. We have soup kitchens in Toronto and the hospices are full, but they do get cots to sleep on, and 3 meals a day, but I don't think TVs to watch, unless there is a common room in the Scot's mission.

Tick

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Originally Posted by tomder55

A bunch of Canadian Liberal Party thinkers got togther to discuss various issues ....a "thinkers conference" . One of the issues they discussed was the state of the national health care program .

The solution to the myriad of problems facing their system ? Well;according to reporting in the 'Montreal Gazette :


Carbon tax a hot topic at Liberals' conference

Ah yes ....new taxes aint it always the way ? Maybe they should listen instead to President Obama who swears that his "magic solution" will cut taxes and reduce the deficit.

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Here we go again, you know I am in healthcare and I don't see a problem and I haven't got blinkers on. I take care of seniors in their homes because, if they can live in their homes, nursing homes is not an option for them. I drive them to appointments and I don't see any wait lists for chemo in Kingston or Oshawa, two of the biggest cancer centres in my area. MRIs, hey, no problem, just walk in, catscans, the same. Dialysis three times a week for clients who are pretty badly off with kidney failure, no problem.

So why don't you listen toto the (oops) common people when they say there is no problem with the Canadian healthcare system.

Montreal Gazette, gosh, that article wasn't in the Toronto Star.

Tick

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Originally Posted by excon

Black is white and white is black... I don't know about you, but in MY city, I see homeless people. I see hungry people. I see sick people...

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I read tom's post and didn't see any denial of that, just the mention that our safety net is designed for those needy, not the middle class. I know I've said it many times, if that's who we need to help then let's help them, but the Dems "social justice" as in Obamacare is and was never about helping those who need it.

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The TRUTH is NOT in the possession of right wingers.

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It darn sure isn't coming out from the other side...

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Originally Posted by tickle

Here we go again, you know I am in healthcare and I dont see a problem and I havent got blinkers on. I take care of seniors in their homes because, if they can live in their homes, nursing homes is not an option for them. I drive them to appointments and I dont see any wait lists for chemo in Kingston or Oshawa, two of the biggest cancer centres in my area. MRIs, hey, no problem, just walk in, catscans, the same. Dialysis three times a week for clients who are pretty badly off with kidney failure, no problem.

So why dont you listen toto the (oops) common people when they say there is no problem with the Canadian healthcare system.

Montreal Gazette, gosh, that article wasnt in the Toronto Star.

tick

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Yes, working in health care myself.

Ex I stand by what I said. The fact that there are homless doesn't negate the fact that the services are there for them if they chose to use them .Maybe the issue is a poor public information system where they don't know what public services are available . Or perhaps they make the choice to stay out of the public housing for whatever reason .

So the bottom line is your argument that there are homeless is a strawman because I never said there weren't homeless. I say with the services /safety net available and an efficient distribution system that admittedly is not there , there need not be.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Where do you get this stuff from? You have been listening to insurance company propoganda. The government doesn't make life style choices for me, it supports whatever choice I make but it does endevour to have me make the right choice through information. I am probally personally paying for some wrong life style choices when I was younger but the government says nothing about that in it's approach to providing health care. Unlike your insurance companies it does not discriminate for pre-existing conditions.

The reality is you just don't get it because you live in a society which has a wrong idea of what freedom is really about. Freedom and Liberty is about every person having an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest. Freedom isn't about every person doing his damnest to climb over the top of every other person.

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When government taxes certain things and not other things, the government does influence your choices. Things like, gas, or cigarettes or alcohol. How about taxes on carbon usage or fat content in food - is this government allowing you freedom to make choices without the force or penalty of taxes? Is that type of government really about the freedom of its citizens?

Speaking of freedom, our society wants the freedom to do whatever they please but not the responsibility that comes with it. If individual A chooses to smoke and /or eat in excess, thus becoming obese, or does not exercise on a regular basis, they are free to do so but do they accept the responsibility of poor health and higher health insurance premiums that comes with those choices? Should individual B, who chooses to lead a healthy lifestyle, have to pay higher premiums in order to subsidize the freedom of individual B' poor health choices.

As to your last statement, I and most Americans would not characterize freedom that way. A certain, ahem liberal, ideology may.


G&P

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Yes, there ARE programs... Does that mean you don't see any homeless people in your city? You don't have any of 'em on your off ramps with signs begging for money? You don't see 'em sleeping in your library's and in your doorways? You think everybody in your city goes to sleep at night with a full stomach? You don't think there are poor people without health care in your city?

Is THAT what you're inferring by linking me to the article? I dunno about you, but even after reading the article, I'm not convinced... That's because, I believe my lying eyes.

excon

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I do see these folks. I donate to Salvation Army, to God's Pantry, to church, to goodwill. I've bought food for those on the side of the road. In my line of work , healthcare, there is care that I give that I know I will not get paid for. I, my wife, my kids, we do those things because we see it and because of Matthew 25:40. I will not leave it solely to government to take care of the wrong things we see.



G&P

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Originally Posted by inthebox

As to your last statement, I and most Americans would not characterize freedom that way. A certain, ahem liberal, ideology may.

G&P

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What I said to you is that every person should have an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest and you call this liberal ideology. I suspect it was the very basis of what americans hold so high, their revolution and constitution. I seriously think that after two hundred years some have lost sight of the original objective. What is implicit in my statement is the need to respect the rights of others in your society not trample them down and take advantage of them, because this denies them equal opportunity. I would rather have a "liberal" ideology than the selfish capitalist ideology of laizze faire. What we have found is the activities of some have to be regulated, and what do we find even in your own society equal opportunity had to be regulated into existence in order to exist and those who would exercise economic power to excess had to be restricted. I suspect you also regard this as a "liberal" ideology unsuited to an american society. In other words; let the minorities remain slaves and the exploiters and criminals rip every one off

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What i said to you is that every person should have an equal opportunity to enjoy life to the fullest and you call this liberal ideology. I suspect it was the very basis of what americans hold so high, their revolution and constitution. I seriously think that after two hundred years some have lost sight of the original objective. What is implicit in my statement is the need to respect the rights of others in your society not trample them down and take advantage of them, because this denies them equal opportunity. I would rather have a "liberal" ideology than the selfish capitalist ideology of laizze faire. What we have found is the activities of some have to be regulated, and what do we find even in your own society equal opportunity had to be regulated into existence in order to exist and those who would exercise economic power to excess had to be restricted. I suspect you also regard this as a "liberal" ideology unsuited to an american society. In other words; let the minorities remain slaves and the exploiters and criminals rip every one off

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

It does not matter what organization thinks what, what matters is what Canadians think.

It is not an insult it is the truth. There is a big difference.

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If YOU are happy with it great (in fact I am glad you are getting what you consider sufficient service where you live) I do believe in getting what you pay for. But a lot of other Canadians aren't. Or they wouldn't be spending huge sums of cash to get services here in the USA they can't get in Canada, or can't wait for or don't want to wait for. And that is true among much of the border... not just in New York, and it's not just Quebec.

It may not be an option for those living far from our borders or lacking the money to take advantage of it. But those doctors here they come to are grateful for the extra income I'm sure, whatever their personal reason for coming.

smoothy, it isn't that they can't get the what they want in Canada, it's that they don't want to wait for what they can get. They also have to be quite wealthy to make that decision, and it usually is a life threatening condition such as heart disease that is putting them over the border. If you are wealthy and can make that instant decision, thenn that is your prerogrative to do so.

When we lived in the States and just started up our own business, just the two of us, we couldn't get health insurance and I had a baby. That was okay, $700 put me in delivery, no fetal monitors and I was 39. I was out the next day with my son. Then, at three he started having seizures, they thought he had meningitis. It cost my mom, from Canada, $5000 US to come bail him out at the hospital for two day stay. Back to Canada for sure and under OHIP coverage was all I wanted if he was going to have further problems.

Then at l7 he was diagnosed with a heart condition and now at 27 has a defibrillator, all covered by OHIP,

So I can't complain and I am just a normal healthy Canadian who hopefully will not have to scrape money together to get a quicky operation in the US.

My point is smooth, I know for a fact that the only Canadians who have surgery across the border can afford to do so, but then on the other hand, there are some procedures that OHIP will cover for them in the U.S. So it's a win win situation.

Tick

See, that's part of my point... if it's a serious or life threatening situation, WHY are they making you wait? That's EXACTLY when you need treatment, and you need it now.

Here you would get it, NOW. Even if you had no insurance at all.

I'm not saying its cheap, paying cash... and not all of them ARE rich. Many are using savings to pay for it, and are willing to do it because HERE they CAN get it, while at home in Canada they are told to wait months they may not survice. Or that will seal their fate, Cancer being a perfect example of waiting sealing your fate, even if immediate death right that moment might not be. Beating cancer is mostly about finding it fast, treating it quickly and aggressively.

Wait months and it grows even worse, maybe metastisizing from something easily treatible, to something untreatible... I.E. Stage 4 cancer.

That's not the only case... just one example of where time is everything.


I'm not arguing the Canadian system is essentually worthless...

What I am arguing is that its seriously lacking when people are in the most dire need of care in a timely fashion.

I have to disagree. That if it is emergency situation that it will be taken care of. You do not have to wait for emergency surgery at all. That is a crock...

If it is life threatening then it is taken care of right away. There would be no time to go to the states. It is the non emergency surgery that will send people else where if they want it.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

I have to disagree. That if it is emergency situation that it will be taken care of. You do not have to wait for emergency surgery at all. That is a crock...

If it is life threatening then it is taken care of right away. There would be no time to go to the states. It is the non emergency surgery that will send people else where if they want it.

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My wife's aunt had to wait 4 months to have surgery for diverticulitis in Canada... she was in so much discomfort she was bedridden for that time... at HOME no less.

While she was a citizen of Canada... she wasn't native born... and she was over 60, so not of any real value to the Canadian Goverments eyes.

That's not a crock... that is reality. And Diverticulitis can very well be a fatal condition... PARTICULARLY when it is causing problems that severe.

Yeah many people live with it years, but none suffer like THAT without being allowed needed surgery except in Canada. You might be operated on by an incompetent Dr. for that in Italy... but you wouldn't have to wait months for it. And yes... my father in law died of complecations and misdiagnossis, and 5 surgeries in 3 months... the last 4 in 3 weeks time. If it was in the USA... it would be Malpractice... but with socialized Medicine... its exceptionally hard to file suit much less provide enough proof to win when THEY can make the evidence disappear.

He did actually have it... they misdiagnosed it until it became an intestinal blockage and more severe.

Those are examples of my actual relatives that had problems... not news stories or claims by third parties unrelated to the patient.


And we are NOT comparing small remote towns in the Northern Territories to USA major cities. That would be unfair.

Montreal is not a small town. Nor is the City in Italy I also referred to as examples.

You keep bringing up montreal.. Montreal is not the whole country of canada.