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Originally Posted by tomder55

well I guess it will be up to SCOTUS to decide. My guess is that they will hold the Presentment Clause of the Constitution to be the law of the land and not the whims of Madame Mimi.

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Hello again, tom:

So, if they undo health care because of "deem and pass", will that ruling automatically undo ALL the other legislation passed the same way? I don't see how it couldn't. If the process is illegal, then it's illegal for ALL the legislation passed that way. No? You certainly don't think SCOTUS will say ONLY this bill is illegal because of it.

Face it Dudes. You're toast.

excon

They already have . It is the reason why the line item veto can only be enacted by an amendment . I would say that yes, any provision passed that way potentially can be struck down with a court challenge.
Please tell me the piece of legislation you want reversed because the procedure was utilized . I bet you can't because it was such a minor point as to be inconsequential .

I expect there will be challenges to this by the Republicans in the House based on house rule IX "questions of privilage" .

Questions of privilege shall be, first, those affecting the rights of the House collectively, its safety, dignity, and the integrity of its proceedings.......
Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives Rules of the House

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Please tell me the piece of legislation you want reversed because the procedure was utilized . I bet you can't because it was such a minor point as to be inconsequential .

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Hello again, tom:

I don't want anything reversed. All I'm saying is, if "deem and pass" is illegal, then IT'S ILLEGAL, and ALL the legislation passed that way is ILLEGAL.

Minor or not, if it was passed illegally, then that's just so. The law is a fine line. Everything on one side of the line is legal. Everything on the other side isn't. The law makes NO distinctions between MINOR or MAJOR issues. It distinguishes only WHERE on that line these issues fall. They're legal or they're not. There's no in between. The GOP used self-executing rules [i.e. "deem and pass"] 35 times in 2005-2006 alone. Therefore, ALL of those 35 laws or amendments to existing laws are ILLEGAL.

You're right. I don't know what they are. I don't care. But, I'll bet a lot of Republicans care, because it was THEIR congress. Wouldn't it be cool if the Patriot Act, or some of it's provisions were passed that way? Oh, by the way. Back then the Democrats sued to end the practice and the GOP defended it in court. The Republicans won.

excon

Yes I know .Pelosi Savage and Ralph Nader tried to stop an increase in the national debt ceiling ;something both sides have been doing annually for years.

The issue ?
The version of the legislation that was presented to the House contained a clerk's error with respect to one term, so the House and Senate voted on slightly different versions of the bill and the President signed the version passed by the Senate.

It was not the passing of the biggest social legislation in the last 45 years. You'll be hard pressed to find anything of significance passed by this trickery.

I don't know if this is true ,but byron York is reporting that the Dem rules committee meeting got chaotic and as a result they are dropping the idea of demon pass.

But the Dems are terrified to pass the Senate version unless the changes they want to the bill become part of the law. The problem is that there are no guarantees that the Senate will pass the sidebar bill . Also procedurally they can't amend the Senate bill until they actually pass it and it becomes law. They want to therefore break procedure and pass the sidebar bill before they vote on the senate bill .

This is a positive development if true .But we are still in tera incognito here .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete

Just to update ...the President needed to postpone his very important junket to Australia and Indonesia again .

Mark Stein notes that perhaps the President can just "deem " that he made the trip because
"passage of the health insurance reform is of paramount importance." Whereas Australia isn't.

But ,being a friend of the US under the Obots is not exactly the best seat on the bus these days. In fact ;our best friends find themselves under the bus.

So as Stein says ,perhaps it would be better if the President pared back to a minimum— a quick refueling stop in Canberra, with a speech to Parliament and a grip'n'greet with the Governor-General and Prime Minister. Maybe the administration could simply "deem" the visit to have occurred, photoshop a souvenir snapshot and stick it in the mail to their eminences.
Investors.com - What Democrats Have 'Deemed': Remorseless, Ever-Faster Decline

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Okay Tom we'll just deem the visit to have occurred, when we are asked what Obama said when he was here, we can say he said very little. We have long known that the US considers Australia of little consequence, just another ally to hang on the coat rack when needed so a non visit from a US President down on his luck and hard pressed to get his agenda up is fine by us, we only want to know winners anyway.

Actually we consider Australia an important ally (or we did until recently).

And we have so much in common lately .We both picked head in the clouds leaders who think they can solve the world's problems by building windmills .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

actually we consider Australia an important ally (or we did until recently).

And we have so much in common lately .We both picked head in the clouds leaders who think they can solve the world's problems by building windmills .

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No. Tom. Yours builds windmills. Ours tilts at them, and insulates houses with Aluminium foil. Could you consider anything more unfortunate than a leader who actually has the name Krudd. We have noted the manner in which Obama treats his important ally Krudd. We actually think Krudd has his eye on a UN posting perhaps Secretary, since he spends more time out of the country than in it.

The Obama administration home insulation program is in the same shambles as Rudds but the compliant press doesn't report it like your's does.It's called here "cash for Caulkers" and it has been mismanaged .
Obama's $6bn plan for home insulation | The Australian

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the Obama adminstration home insulation program is in the same shambles as Rudds but the compliant press doesn't report it like your's does.It's called here "cash for Caulkers" and it has been mismanaged .
Obama's $6bn plan for home insulation | The Australian

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"Cash for caulkers" I didn't hear about that one, I hope you don't get the dangerous instalations and house fires that came out of ours. I thought you had a Cash for Clunkers program to revitalise your government owned auto industry, how's that going by the way, about as well as your revitalised health care? What I see is both BO and Krudd are equally on the nose because they have very quickly run out of ideas. We are about to have a federal take over of public hospitals, they will be paid on a procedures basis, so if there is a hospital in a sparcely populated region it won't get much funding or will have to over service. We are lucky to have media which is fairly fiesty where politicians are concerned, you could say they have their BS meters on high

It is an environmental/energy /jobs program that is supposed to help the construction industry and the do it yourself supply stores. It hasn't helped either . The environmental impact is unknown at this point and I'm sure that the few homeowners who have participated have saved a few dollars on their energy bills to offset the tax money others have had to shell out for it. Me, I brought a 1930s made home 15 years ago ,and replaced all the windows with energy efficient ones . I systematically upgrade the insulation and yes ,even caulk .Now I get to pay for someone else to do it to their home too.

Demon pass is out .The next game in play is an attempt to peel away the Stupak block of Dems who are no votes because of the abortion funding in the Senate version .

Stupak wants to vote for health care reform ,but the abortion funding is a bridge he and about 6 Dems won't cross.

Enter the President... it is being suggested that he floated an idea that if they vote for the legislation he wouid sign an executive order barring the Federal funding for abortion. Steny Hoyer is telling reporters that the executive order is being drafted where the President would reaffirm his commitment to the Hyde Amendment that bans Fed funding of abortion except in cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the woman.
washingtonpost.com

Here's recalling another Presidential executive order that the libs can hang their hat on... the closing of GITMO.



Last night ABC said the whip count was 12 yes and 214 no .If the Stupak bloc flips Pelosi has the votes needed.

Hello again, tom:

If the bill passes, it's because it IS bipartisan... No, not between the Democrats and the Republicans. But, between Obama and the Health Insurers and Big Pharma. They both cut deals with Obama and they both essentially support the bill.

What deals you ask? Obama promised that there would be NO public option in the final bill (and there isn't), and when Byron Dorgan's prescription drug re-importation amendment came up, Obama opposed it (like he promised he would).

I thought Republicans represented industry. What happened?

excon

This is no longer a "bi-partisan" anything. It is simply a greed pay off for most of the greedy jerks in congress. What really bothers me about this so called health care bill is that it's going to cost us so much a month/year in premiums and then on top of that we have to pay a CO-PAY every time we see the dr. Gee, isn't that wonderful if you don't go to the doctor more than once a year. What a phenomenally high doctor visit that's going to be. $5,000 plus the co-pay. Pretty pricey 5 minute doctor visit if you ask me. Duh. Just how many visits to the doctor per year does a normal healthy person have to have? And then, just think of all the wonderful vaccinations that are going to be literally forced on us?? I don't even want to think about that particular subject as we've already seen enough of the flu scare of this winter to open the eyes of most Americans to that scam.

It's all strictly how much money can each individual congressperson put into their pocket. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. $$$$$ talks and bullsh*t walks is an old saying.

We're going to see the $$$$ talks today, that's for sure when they do in fact vote on this abomination of a bill.

What really bothers me is if for some miraculous reason this bill does not get passed today, just how many more times will they have to vote on it to satisfy Mimi Pelosi's ego?? One Hundred more times?? This is getting old, very old.

America needs jobs, not health care. How is the normal struggling American family going to even pay for this drivel if they don't have a job? Not many that's for sure.

Maybe Obama needs to get his nose out of Pelosi's behind and start paying attention to the real needs of America. But... you and I know that is not going to happen. He's too much a brown noser as his history has shown.

If this is passed - does that mean that I can go to any Micky D's or BK and slap that burger and fries out of some fatty's hands so they don't get onto disability for being self induced obese? Gosh, I hope so. I've got my shovel ready and I'm getting into my car to cruise the local junk fast food places... so look out fatties I've got my Entrenching Tool ready. Makes for a dandy "swatting" the burgers out of fatties hands tool.

Hello again:

I spoke a while ago about the Democrats losing the talking points battle. They don't even try to defend their action. What further proof of that is there, than the Republicans loudly threatening the Democrats with losing their seats IF they pass the bill.

Where are the Democrats threatening the Republicans with THEIR seats if they oppose it?

If the Democrats win, it's not because they deserve it.

excon

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But, between Obama and the Health Insurers and Big Pharma. They both cut deals with Obama and they both essentially support the bill.

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You forgot to mention their largest constituency... the trial lawyers.

Perhaps the Democrats are the party of big corporatism ,and I don't know who the Republicans stand for . I am for the American people... and they are getting a raw deal tonight.

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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

If this is passed - does that mean that I can go to any Micky D's or BK and slap that burger and fries out of some fatty's hands so they don't get onto disability for being self induced obese? Gosh, I hope so. I've got my shovel ready and I'm getting into my car to cruise the local junk fast food places...... so look out fatties I've got my Entrenching Tool ready. Makes for a dandy "swatting" the burgers out of fatties hands tool.

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So now we are going to have the fast food vigilantees, tell me twinkie where have you been for the past fifty years? You have had ample opportunity to protest chew and spew and what have you done, nothing! No, because you think there might be a link between the unhealthy american lifestyle and obesity you are going to attack the victims of corporate america. What a dill, please change your avatar to dilldonothing. What you need to do is lead the backwash party and have all fast food outlets closed, Ban McD, BK, KFC, pizza whatever, donut king, Krispy Kremes, hey the list is so long you are going to have to enlist an army

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Originally Posted by paraclete

So now we are going to have the fast food vigilantees, tell me twinkie where have you been for the past fifty years? You have had ample opportunity to protest chew and spew and what have you done, nothing! No, because you think there might be a link between the unhealthy american lifestyle and obesity you are going to attack the victims of corporate america. What a dill, please change your avatar to dilldonothing. What you need to do is lead the backwash party and have all fast food outlets closed, Ban McD, BK, KFC, pizza whatever, donut king, Krispy Kremes, hey the list is so long you are going to have to enlist an army

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You think there MIGHT be a link? Yes, there definitely is a huge link with obesity and fast food there buddy. McDonalds and BK serve "fake food" that does not even mold or rot or decompose! Yup. And yes, I would definitely deprive corporate america of such mass poisoning of America. Some folks are too stupid to know real food from fake food as the fake food has additives and food enhancing flavors and aromas to fool the nose and tastebuds. Well known fact, Para. Even the french fries are fake with all sorts of additives added to real potatoes that people literally crave due to the additives. Proven fact, the typical fast food diner eats their fries first, burgers second.

I have the television now turned on and watching all the groveling speeches given by the drolls in Congress of just why it is so important to pass this bill. I almost upchucked and had to change the channel. I'll find out later what the outcome is/was.

My silly congresswomen is voting for it and I don't think we even got a deal for Georgia. I mean what sort of polictical person she is, we needed our payoff or bribe like everyone else