The problem with both Democrat candidates is that so long as the MSM was willing to overlook their problems without investigation then they were safe (Obama 's was Rev Wright and although the press gave him cover ;the new media wasn't about to) ).

Hillary traces the origin of her tales to a story told by a deputy sheriff at a meeting. She did not bother to fact check because she figured that the MSM would giver her cover. But she was outed by the NY Slimes because their affection has swung to the candidate furthest to the left.

The fact that Hillary did not fact check the story is indicative of how she would perform in office. I keep on looking for compelling reasons for voting for either Democrat candidate and I can't find any beyond the " first " premise.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Can the Democrats tell the truth?

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Can the Democrat, Conservative and/or any other presidential contender tell the truth?

You have insincere people, you have liars, you have chronic liars, you have car sales men and insurance sales people, you have lawyers, and you have politicians...
No need for "party colored" glasses!

'nough said!
;)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The fact that Hillary did not fact check the story is indicative of how she would perform in office.

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In other words, she launched the offensive even though there were no health care weapons of mass destruction? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The problem with both Democrat candidates is that so long as the MSM was willing to overlook their problems without investigation then they were safe (Obama 's was Rev Wright and although the press gave him cover ;the new media wasn't about to) ).

Hillary traces the origin of her tales to a story told by a deputy sheriff at a meeting. She did not bother to fact check because she figured that the MSM would giver her cover. But she was outed by the NY Slimes because their affection has swung to the candidate furthest to the left.

The fact that Hillary did not fact check the story is indicative of how she would perform in office. I keep on looking for compelling reasons for voting for either Democrat candidate and I can't find any beyond the " first " premise.

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A bigger problem looms for McCain when the focus shifts back to general election coverage. So far he's been able to keep low with bland speeches, while the Democrats go at it. And since there isn't any compelling reason to vote McCain, I take it your voting a write-in candidate?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I keep on looking for compelling reasons for voting for either Democrat candidate

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I don't believe you.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

In other words, she launched the offensive even though there were no health care weapons of mass destruction? :D

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Good one. McCain can portray her as offering a "third Bush term".

So where will Obama come down on the right to keep and bear arms? Get ready for a whopper:
"Ted Kennedy's Poodle is all for gun control. He wants to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Others who have done this in history have been labeled Fascists. One person who did this was named Adolf. His last name started with an "H"...it's on the top of my tongue but I can't think of it...maybe it will come to me.

Obama is against law-abiding citizens without any criminal record or history being able to defend themselves. Townhall:

Barack Obama is embracing anti-gun policies in the run-up to a Democratic presidential debate scheduled on the one-year anniversary of the Virginia Tech shootings.

“I am not in favor of concealed weapons,” Obama told the Pittsburgh Tribune. "I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations." [Yes, it would have been just terrible had a law-abiding citizen been carrying a concealed weapon to defend and protect him or herself - let alone others - at V-Tech, wouldn't it? - Drake]

These remarks break from Obama's previous moderate rhetoric on gun control.

While campaigning in Idaho in February, Obama promised, “I have no intention of taking away folks' guns.”

Why - is The Poodle flip-flopping on his words? It sure seems so.

Again from the above Townhall story:

[Obama said], "a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families."

I'm really sick and tired of Democrats using hunting and sportsmanship as their faux argument in pretending and posturing to be pro-Second Amendment. Hunting and sportsmanship have nothing to do with the Second Amendment."
David Drake: Obama Is All Pro Gun Control

From the past, talking about Democrat fibs being whoppers and the MSM never covering them: "Mr. Clinton introduced the promise of a tax cut for the middle class in a speech in November 1991 at Georgetown University. "I will offer middle-income tax cuts," he said. "The average working family's tax bill will go down about 10 percent, a savings of about $300 a year, and I won't finance it with increasing the deficit."

As late as 10 days before the election, Mr. Clinton was still promising a tax cut for families making less than $80,000. On Oct. 24, a reporter asked him if it was true, as advisers were saying, that he might postpone the middle-class tax cut for a year if elected, in the light of gloomy economic projections. "Absolutely not," Mr. Clinton said. "I make the economic decisions in this Administration." CLINTON'S ECONOMIC PLAN: The Campaign; Gambling That a Tax-Cut Promise Was Not Taken Seriously - New York Times
I recall Clinton at a news conference after the 'Economic Summit' (go back and see all the corporate and oil bigwigs that attended) saying, "I've worked harder on this than anything in my life and we just can't find a way...." blah, blah, blah. Oh the lies of Democrats, that never get covered. But this year, Hillary is Obama's shield.

Hello again,

I don't know why you righty's want to call the other guys liars, when the head of YOUR party, is the liar in chief - the MOTHER of all liars! To wit:

There are WMD'S - not

We're making progress - not

America has prevailed - not

We don't torture - not

We don't spy on Americans - not

And, these ain't teeny little lies, like I didn't have sex with that woman, or I changed my mind about tax cuts... Nooooo, these are really BIG WHOPPERS where people DIE because of them.

I DO understand, however, that these are distinctions that you, somehow, CANNOT make. I don't know why. You think lying about a blow job is just like lying about WMD's...

excon

As long as we're remembering Republican lies, let's not forget Reagan's denial that he sold arms to the Iranians and gave the money to the Contras. I'm still pissed that he got away with that.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

As long as we're remembering Republican lies, let's not forget Reagan's denial that he sold arms to the Iranians and gave the money to the Contras. I'm still pissed that he got away with that.

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Yeah, fighting for freedom in your own backyard antagonizes liberals. :D

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Originally Posted by George_1950

Yeah, fighting for freedom in your own backyard antagonizes liberals. :D

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Yes it does. The reason is that "fighting for freedom" by secret and illegal means has a way of not staying in the backyard, but coming right into the house.

Obama has a fairly common standard view: that is that we have right to bear arms as individuals.

Most recent article I could find with his position on the issue.

Obama Supports Individual Gun Rights

The senator, a former constitutional law instructor, said some scholars argue the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees gun ownerships only to militias, but he believes it grants individual gun rights.

"I think there is an individual right to bear arms, but it's subject to commonsense regulation" like background checks, he said during a news conference.


I did a little more digging and found his senate record which indicates back in 1998he opposed semi-automatic weapon sales. But for all the false hoopla about losing your fire-arms rights or missing out on that annual hunting trip into the brush thickets of backwoods USA, that's just nonsense.

His voting record in the Senate, 1998

Gun Issues

Indicate which principles you support (if any) concerning gun issues.
X a) Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
X b) Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
c) Maintain state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
d) Ease state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
e) Repeal state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens.
f) Favor allowing citizens to carry concealed firearms.
X g) Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
h) Other

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“I am not in favor of concealed weapons,” Obama told the Pittsburgh Tribune. "I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations."

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There are 288,909 concealed weapons permit holders in Texas and it doesn't bother me a bit. Of the 1379 aggravated assault with a deadly weapon convictions in Texas in the last year statistics are available (2005), 4 were permit holders. Of 63 manslaughter convictions, 1 was a permit holder. Of the 175 murder convictions, 1 was a permit holder. Of the 34,791 listed convictions, 0.3708% (129) were permit holders.

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The number of homicides in Texas has decreased almost every year since recording 2,022 homicides in 1994 to 1,407 in 2005, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report data. During the same time span, Texas' population has risen from 18.3 million to about 23 million residents.

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The article claims a spike in homicides in Texas although 2006, the last year available, 1,384 were reported. Texas' population has increased 26 percent since the concealed weapons law went into effect and yet homicides have decreased by a third. Mr. Obama should not worry about maybes so much.

Steve,

Here in Vegas, like in LA, NYC, Philly, Chi-Town, and some other large cities, we have many concealed weapon carriers that are known as: citizens with permits, police department, federal agents, Bloods, M13's, numerous biker gangs and of course the mob. Down your way in Texas (Houston, Big D, Austin and SA) add others in the mix such as: the Texas Syndicate, Mexican mafia, Skin heads, and numerous other smaller links in the food chain.

Obama advocates individual rights to own fire-arms. But I take this in a broader scope than Obama and disagree with him in part. His view against concealed weapons would be nearly impossible for him to overturn because he's not going to get enough support on this particular issue to change it later. At least I'm doubtful of that occurring. And even if he could accomplish this feat it would not effect the vast majority of the nation since most don't have the permit in the first place. Besides you would still have that sawed off shotgun in the closet and our police forces would be excluded because they carry off duty anyway.

Personally I would make it where nobody even had to have a concealed weapons permit to carry a fire-arm and I'm not even sure registration warrants that much value either. The Brady law was enacted after the fact, only delays, and never will stop bullets from leaving the chamber. There are numerous ways to elude laws if anyone has the will to perpetrate homicide. On this issue my ideal candidate would make it mandatory to take a standardized class to respect the responsibility of ownership. Easy enough and no hassle. My plan is that you buy a fire-arm, no registration, you take the class certification for "responsibility of ownership," and you can leave free to carry your fire-arm, concealed or not, everywhere accept when private property posts otherwise, or in city, state, or federal government buildings.

Another inexcusable law is the length of knives that can be carried. You can cut several vital places on the body with less than a two inch blade that could take a life. When I was younger and into martial arts, I took Kali (Filipino style). Part of the classes focused on anatomy of the body. The gun/knife weapon issues is just something that most politicians don't fair well with me. I don't agree with either Republicans or Democrats on the subject.

Yeah the guns are really making you safer!

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

But I understand it is a different set of social circumstances over there and you value highly the right to own guns. If only you could see the damage it is doing.

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Obama is also self-triangulating on the issue of gun control. In 1996, he said in response to a questionnaire that he favored banning the manufacture, sale, and possession of hand guns. For several years thereafter, he was on the board of a Chicago-based foundation that takes aggressive gun control positions. Lately, though, his views have become more nuanced. Parting company with hard-line gun control advocates, Obama contends that the Second Amendment's right to bear arms applies not just to militias but to individuals as well. However, he also insists that this constitutional guarantee does not preclude local “common sense” restrictions on firearms. But when asked several times by Novak how he applies this set of principles to the District of Columbia's gun law, the constitutionality of which the Supreme Court is now considering, Obama declines to answer. Perhaps he feels the District has the better arguments, but would vote with the Court's conservatives if it were close. It's overwhelmingly likely that deep-down Obama is a solid leftist. That's how he was raised and educated, and that's where he started on the war, gun control, and a host of other issues.

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Power Line

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Originally Posted by Skell

Yeah the guns are really making you safer!

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Skell, I noticed in today's paper you guys had some kids with baseball bats and machetes rampaging through a school. I hope school violence isn't becoming a trend down there for you guys, it seems to just get uglier. We just had a bunch of 3rd Graders plotting to attack their teacher.

Anyway, on your statistics, I found a WHO report (pdf) that shows the homicide rate is greatest in the African region, the suicide rate was greatest in the Western Pacific region. The suicide rate in the European region was on par with the homicide rate in the Americas, and the European homicide rate was roughly the same as the suicide rate in the Americas.

According to Nationmaster, the US is 24th in murders per capita and 8th in murders with firearms per capita:

#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

Violence is a problem everywhere Skell, and while people like to focus on firearms in America, I wonder why suicide rates are highest in the western pacific and Europe.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Skell, I noticed in today's paper you guys had some kids with baseball bats and machetes rampaging through a school. I hope school violence isn't becoming a trend down there for you guys, it seems to just get uglier. We just had a bunch of 3rd Graders plotting to attack their teacher.

Violence is a problem everywhere Skell, and while people like to focus on firearms in America, I wonder why suicide rates are highest in the western pacific and Europe.

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Yes that story you mention is just horrible and something we are unfamiliar with down here. I also hope it isn't a trend we see develop down here. We have problems with ciolence but generally schools are a place of learning. A safe haven for children to enjoy.

Interestingly enough the gang that did this has named themselves after famous american street gangs and it is there 'ambition' to bring the american gang culture to the streets of Sydney. They are of Pacific Islander decent and appear to idolise the american gangsta life. It is very scary and one our government needs to really act on swiftly.

The difference as I see it Steve is that because guns are harder to obtain here than the US, those punks were 'only' carrying machetes and bats. Sure they may have access to guns, but in this instance they weren't carrying them. No one was killed. Some people suffered non life threatening injuries. In the US we see a different outcome. We see mass shootings of innocent kids going about there schooling each week (or so it seems). The argument that bearing arms protects you just doesn't sit with me. The statistics say otherwise.

And I agree Steve that violence is a problem everywhere, not just in the US. No doubt. But for a developed nation. A great and intelligent nation to just sit by and watch 1000's of innocent people slaughtered each year by guns and simply trot out the old "guns dont kill people, people do" line simply astounds me. Just cause its in your constitution doesn't make it right. Especially in the world we live in today.

But I have had my say on this before (particualry with Elliot) and I have come to the conclusion to simply leave it as a clash of cultures and attitudes. We are just poles apart on this issue. Perhaps you guys are too far down the gun culture path to ever safely go back.

Skell-

I remember the debates over the gun ownership issue with Elliot. I think both sides of the argument was in-depth and presented very well. You're correct in that ideally the removal of all guns would solve a lot of the violence. However it is not practical for the US. At this point and time of our country's history asking people to turn over their guns would never would be enough. Perhaps a very small percentage under a "pay for voluntary giving up fire-arms" using a tax deduction after appraisal, but nothing near enough. Even if the government ordered the military to help out the local police forces in trying to remove fire-arms that would only cause a civil disaster, numerous funerals, initiated both by citizens otherwise fit for society, and those gang or mafia ilk. It's just not practical here in the States. The government similarly once tried the same with the prohibition of alcohol and it just produced more body bags and underground speakeasies.