Ask Me Help Desk - Gun control past debates

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

Why should high school dropouts that count to 11 without unzipping their pants get the wages recent college crads or high school grads start with?

Most of them are lucky the get out of bed before lunchtime. Mostly because they hang out until 3 or 4 am robbing people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete
Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

Point well made Clete, and to just add Smoothy's attitude against those not as smart as he is makes my case for why there is poverty in the first place. That's what happens when a sourpuss get an extra buck, he pats himself on the back, and slaps the next fellow. Heavan forbid he get competition from those he derides. That would throw his world order into chaos.

He can no longer measure himself by how many are beneath him. That's why the solution to him is to work harder and pursue that imaginary job, instead of shutting up and getting out of the way.

OK keep denying new workers the chance to learn a trade or profession outside of college and you consign them to poverty and dependency for the rest of their lives... the liberal solution!!

Everybody should have a chance to learn, that's the liberal approach, but you have to eat too!

Never once have you heard me say an education or training is unnecessary. Obama has said it's a priority investment, for which you blast him for.

Dude, there are only so many places for philosophy and dance majors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

ok keep denying new workers the chance to learn a trade or profession outside of college and you consign them to poverty and dependency for the rest of their lives....the liberal solution!!!

President Obama has said high schools and community colleges are great places to offer vocational training and certificates for daycare, line cook, auto mechanic, hospital tech/lab worker, vet tech, etc. At my h.s. back in the day, we had two tracks (college/professional and vocational training), and students were moved onto one of those tracks after intensive testing and counseling. So let's go back to that model. That way, colleges would get students who could handle the demands, and the workforce would get trained workers (who would have been coached in job hunting).

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Now there is a real indication of what is wrong with the system, the minimum wage should be way more than welfare as an incentive for people to work, where I come from welfare is about half the minimum wage and unemployment about a third

If that were the case in this country then the minimum wage would be around $25 per hour worked. Welfare is very generous here in the states.

The Work Versus Welfare Trade-Off: An Analysis of the Total Level of Welfare Benefits by State

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

There is no shame in temporary help and guidance since thats all they have. Dependency come when there are NO other options that are viable, and you have to concede the economy with a tight jobs market is not a viable option to poverty, and charity falls short too.

For sure something is terribly wrong when the working people need assistance from government programs. Thats a big red flag that something ain't right when it comes to the way we deal with the American people.

If we agree that America needs jobs, and government shouldn't be job creators, then who should we demand jobs from, and what do we do for those that languish without a job? If we don't have a better strategy than the one we have now, then we beg for more dependence, more poverty, and even more competition from the underground economy that poverty has created over a very long time.

All of this in the wake of many jobs being lost and new people put into the poverty that being jobless creates. We libs don't want anyone dependent on government, but we dohave to support and guide those thru nofault of their own, find themselves between a rock and hard place.

You cannot make a job as a condition for that help when there are no jobs.

This last line bothers me. It is because I believe you can make it a condition. If a erson is of low education then their job is to get educated. If they keep popping out babies then they can join a CoOp and babysit for those getting an education etc. Yes those that can work should one way or another. As far as alchoholics goes they shouldn't be supported by the system without conditions. One of them being to get straightened out. We need to put time limits on programs. We need to convert many off the public dole and onto being productive tax payers. That way there will always be a safety net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

We need to put time limits on programs. We need to convert many off the public dole and onto being productive tax payers. That way there will always be a safety net.

And if they don't meet the time limit, then what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And if they don't meet the time limit, then what?

Then that is their choice. Start a reduction down to very basic levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

Then that is their choice. Start a reduction down to very basic levels.

Yes, but what happens to them? They are refused public aid and any associated benefits? They are sent to Nevada to die in the desert?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

If that were the case in this country then the minimum wage would be around $25 per hour worked. Welfare is very generous here in the states.

The Work Versus Welfare Trade-Off: An Analysis of the Total Level of Welfare Benefits by State

Goes along way to eliminate poverty, wipe out the deficit, and stimulate the economy as Wall Street sets a record, and businesses have never done better.

Quote:

Any welfare reform proposal must recognize that individuals are unlikely to move from welfare to work as long as welfare pays as well as or better than working. That suggests that the most promising welfare reforms are those that substantially cut back on the level of benefits.

Rather than raise the minimum wage? Come on!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, but what happens to them? They are refused public aid and any associated benefits? They are sent to Nevada to die in the desert?

They go on to live at minimum levels. Food and shelter and a small amount for clothing. No cellphone. No new cars no extras that life can afford you at higher income levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Goes along way to eliminate poverty, wipe out the deficit, and stimulate the economy as Wall Street sets a record, and businesses have never done better.

Rather than raise the minimum wage? Come on!!!!!!!!!!!

What your talking about would cause hyper inflation. Im sure you have your wheelbarrow handy for buying that loaf of bread. Do you think you could still buy a hamburger for a dollar if the minimum wage were $25 ? What it shows is how over the top generous this country has been with welfare. It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

What your talking about would cause hyper inflation. Im sure you have your wheelbarrow handy for buyin that loaf of bread. Do you think you could still buy a hamburger for a dollar if the minimum wage were $25 ? What it shows is how over the top generous this country has been with welfare. It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, through deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. That's what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

It should be more about giving a hand up then giving a hand out.

I agree, but how would that work? Job coaching? A social worker/counselor assigned to each person to monitor their progress?

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, thru deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. Thats what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

Why are we giving Hollywood massive subsidies and tax credits with the money they make... why do we give Obama free vacations at the expense of the poor with the Millions he has...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I agree, but how would that work? job coaching? a social worker/counselor assigned to each person to monitor their progress?

Works like this.

CalWORKs Welfare-to-Work

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdad

Works like this.

CalWORKs Welfare-to-Work

Is that successful? There has been a gradually lessening of people on welfare?

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

So why do we give oil companies and corporations welfare, thru deductions and loop holes since a hand up for them isn't needed. Thats what destroys the argument for me is that welfare for the ordinary is bad, but for big business its good.

So you think we should be competing with 3rd world wages?

Which loopholes are we talking about here? Can you be a little more specific then just the broad brush your painting with ?

Legitimate business expenses are going to occur. Now if you would like to eliminate all expenses and move to a "fair tax" Im for it. But it seems you and this president want to subsidize a select industry even if it's a failure and take away from those that are a succeeding. What is your definition of coporate welfare?