Ask Me Help Desk - Curioser and Curioser

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Thus, you totally cancel out the power of the Holy Spirit to work faith in that baby as it grows up, especially with Christian parents and sponsors heavily involved, beginning when I was baptized. I was taught prayers, was read to from children's Bible story books (which I still have), was taken to church and Sunday School every Sunday plus to special servicesand religious activities such as during Lent and Christmas. At 13, after a year of special weekly instruction by the pastor in a class with others my age, I was confirmed and renewed my baptismal vows plus received my first Holy Communion. This is how the Protestants bring up their children, in knowledge and love for the Triune God and in particular for our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have contested none of that. I have simply pointed out that your idea that infant baptism results in a Christian conversion is found nowhere in the Bible.

Now if, at the age of 13, you confessed your sinful state, repented, and confessed a genuine faith in Christ, then that would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by waltero

You're simply being entertained. You are not listening. Because if you were, you wouldn't be so easily distracted by the never-ending arguments the two of you have been continuously going through for decades.

Your sentences are very convoluted and wander all over the place. Unfortunately, what you write often doesn't make sense. Please use simple sentences with orderly thinking.

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You're simply being entertained. You are not listening.

I read your posts attentively. It's how I know that much of what you post is made up or incorrect. Now if you want to believe otherwise, then go for it.

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Your sentences are very convoluted and wander all over the place.

Sadly true.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have contested none of that. I have simply pointed out that your idea that infant baptism results in a Christian conversion is found nowhere in the Bible.

Now if, at the age of 13, you confessed your sinful state, repented, and confessed a genuine faith in Christ, then that would be a different story.

I had said that the sponsors at a baptism then support the parents in bringing up the child. Infant baptism sets the stage for the child to grow into a life-changing faith.

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You're simply being entertained. You are not listening. Because if you were, you wouldn't be so easily distracted by the never-ending arguments the two of you have been continuously going through for decades.

I assume you are using this as an example. You don't understand what is being said or implied, here?

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wander all over the place

Sadly this holds true for most of the conversations around here.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I assume you are using this as an example. You don't understand what is being said or implied, here?

I do not understand your train of thought that wanders all over the place.

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Sadly this holds true for most of the conversations around here.

Actually, no. I may disagree with other posters but, whether I agree or disagree, at least I know what they have said. I cannot make sense of what you are trying to say. Please post in short, simple sentences.

I just read back on this thread. Most of what you have posted is understandable. But on the Christianity board, not so much!

Yes. Most every conversation gets sidetracked whenever, especially, Hell or some other fudal conversations that you and JL have rehearsed in the past. There have been many times when I said something, something that I researched and found to be solid. Just to have the two of you go off with another one of your crazy arguments. the two of you are so in tune to your own thoughts that you fly off to another world... Off again to one of your old arguments.

That alone shows me that the two of you are only trying to teach. You have no desire to learn anything new. It's all old news.
Almost all Christians think so. Anything that has been discovered or said pertaining to the scriptures has been known. There is nothing new that anybody can come up with. no new understanding, no new revelation. If that is so, then we are all doomed for destruction. The Church is in trouble and if it continues to believe as it does, Jesus is liable to spit it out of his mouth.
Once he spits, there is no coming back!

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I had said that the sponsors at a baptism then support the parents in bringing up the child. Infant baptism sets the stage for the child to grow into a life-changing faith.

Yes, and you are welcome to that view. I'm simply saying that infant baptism is supported nowhere in scripture, and certainly the idea that infants can have saving faith is not supported and would seem to be an absurd idea. If it was true, then surely somewhere in the NT we would read something to the effect of, "Bring your infants into the church that they might be baptized and thus obtain a genuine Christian faith. Don't wait until they're old enough to make their own decisions. Get the job done at three weeks." Strangely, that seems not to be in the Bible.

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There have been many times when I said something, something that I researched and found to be solid.

Could you give a specific example, Walter, of when you have done that? If it's happened "many times", then I have no doubt you can post an example of it.

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Originally Posted by waltero

The Church is in trouble and if it continues to believe as it does, Jesus is liable to spit it out of his mouth.
Once he spits, there is no coming back!

Please explain.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"Bring your infants into the church that they might be baptized and thus obtain a genuine Christian faith. Don't wait until they're old enough to make their own decisions. Get the job done at three weeks." Strangely, that seems not to be in the Bible.

I never said that! We baptize babies so that they grow in grace. That's why the parents and sponsors (godparents) have such a huge role in the child's life. As 2 Peter 3:18 says, "Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

I asked, "When did you accept Christ as Savior?" You replied in post 90, "At 3 weeks of age. Baptism." You have argued since then that you became a Christian at that point, but you now seem to be saying that infant baptism does not save but rather puts a person on the pathway to salvation. If that is the case, then when did you actually accept Christ as Savior? In other words, at what point did you actually become a Christian?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

In other words, at what point did you actually become a Christian?

Formally, at Confirmation, age 13. Informally, as soon as I understood the Gospel message, probably around the age of 3 or 4.

Are you a Pentecostal?

Pentecostal? No. I am a Christian who believes the Bible is God's word and follows it as God's grace helps me.

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Formally, at Confirmation, age 13. Informally, as soon as I understood the Gospel message, probably around the age of 3 or 4.

That's a sensible answer, though why you didn't say that from the beginning is a mystery. Still, that's fine, but it's confusing considering that about a year ago you claimed, "I was born again when I received the gift of Holy Baptism at the age of three days." Now you can't be born again before your acceptance of Christ and the Christian faith, so that's difficult to resolve. Evidently you see things differently now.

Because I had a pastor as a father, God was always a part of my everyday life, especially when I was a child and teen.

An answer which resolves nothing. How could you be born again at 3 days (weeks?) old, but not accept Christ until 3 or 4 years old? Doesn't make sense.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...25#post3887425

And we can just drop it if you would prefer, but I stay concerned about you with these answers that seem...strange.

Oh, certainly the Holy Spirit is unable to come into the heart of a baby! And a small child certainly can't accept Jesus as its Savior!

Yeah, let's drop it. Maybe I can get Martin Luther (my birthday buddy) to explain it to you in heaven.

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Oh, certainly the Holy Spirit is unable to come into the heart of a baby! And a small child certainly can't accept Jesus as its Savior!

You claimed this happened at 3 days. Can a 3 day old accept Christ? Of course not. It's just an idea that has no grounding in scripture whatsoever. Zero.

Consider it dropped.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You claimed this happened at 3 days. Can a 3 day old accept Christ? Of course not. It's just an idea that has no grounding in scripture whatsoever. Zero.

Consider it dropped.

I had meant 3 weeks back then and had mistyped. I was baptized at 3 weeks. And yes, the Holy Spirit can come into the heart of an infant that age.

Lord what fools these mortals be.

That's what you say but again, it is unsupported by Scripture and so is just your opinion. That's not to say there haven't been some exceptions to that. John the Baptist comes to mind, though his situation was prophesied. Jesus doubtless was filled with the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb as far as I know, though that is never stated. But there are no promises in the Bible of the Holy Spirit filling a baby just because they were baptized at 3 weeks. It's just groundless. You wanting it to be true is not sufficient.

We just have a different approach to truth. You seem to go with whatever seems reasonable and desirable to you. My disposition is much more to lean towards the Bible. It's why we so frequently end up not in agreement.

We each have been taught different truths. That's why I asked if you are a Pentecostal. Or maybe Assemblies of God. They don't believe in infant baptism.

oh oh oh I know that one Mr Kotter John 18:38

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Originally Posted by tomder55

oh oh oh I know that one Mr Kotter John 18:38

Excellent, tomder!!!

Wikipedia says it well: "Christians who baptize infants believe that baptism has replaced Old Testament circumcision and is the religious ceremony of initiation into the Christian community."

and

"Since the creation of faith is exclusively God's work, it does not depend on the actions of the one baptized, whether infant or adult."

There is no such thing as different truths.

Appealing to wiki is not an appeal to the Bible.

Does anyone really care when children get baptized ? I say any age is a good age . Hope I don't go to hell for that reply.

I don’t care if they baptize an infant as long as they don’t try to connect it with Christian conversion.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I don’t care if they baptize an infant as long as they don’t try to connect it with Christian conversion.

Not conversion!!!!

You claimed you were born again (converted??) at the age of three days because of a baptismal ceremony. Are you flip-flopping now? Perhaps you have a different view of conversion than I do?

Perhaps I should have written, "I don’t care if they baptize an infant as long as they don’t try to connect it with actually becoming a Christian. "

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Lord what fools these mortals be

Simply amazing isn't it? I think this has more to do with neither of them believing the Bible as (And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us) the living Word of God. This is what happens to those who can not see the Word. They are simply hearing the Living Word, not seeing. When Jesus said; "And you do what you have heard from your father.” This is what we do when we only hear...those who simply go on "hearing the Word".

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"The Word is to be seen not heard."

This has to do more with Seeing the Word as opposed to hearing the Word. I'm confident that JL & WG will someday know the Scriptures as a Living Word. The Devil is able to quote the Scriptures better than anyone... So we should go on preaching that which we have simply heard...such as the love of God??

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and you do what you have heard

there is no knowledge of things insofar as they are external in effect.

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"I speak of what I have seen with my Father"

but insofar as their nature and quiddity is grasped by the mind.

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"The Word is to be seen not heard."

You must believe the Scripture is the living Word of God, otherwise, you will never be able to live according to his Word.

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Originally Posted by waltero

You must believe the Scripture is the living Word of God, otherwise, you will never be able to live according to his Word.

I do live according to His Word.

Be careful! Matt. 7:1.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You claimed you were born again (converted??) at the age of three days because of a baptismal ceremony. Are you flip-flopping now? Perhaps you have a different view of conversion than I do?

Perhaps I should have written, "I don’t care if they baptize an infant as long as they don’t try to connect it with actually becoming a Christian. "

Of course not!! Not conversion! It is the beginning for that child, with adults promising to teach that child about God and His love for us.

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I do live according to His Word.

Yes, and so did the Pharisees.

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I do live according to His Word.

This is equivalent to saying that you live by the Law (according to the law). Maybe you heard about the love of God, developing your own understanding, without experiencing the love of God (similarily being Baptized as a baby)?

Come on WG, Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. If you live according to his Word then you know his Word as the living Word! Otherwise, your life is no life at all.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Come on WG, Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. If you live according to his Word then you know his Word as the living Word! Otherwise, your life is no life at all.

I know His Word as the Living Word and joyfully live according to it.

Did you ever watch the youtube Christian movie, "The Encounter"? It's my most favoritest movie of all time!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bj-PekUGBnA

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Of course not!! Not conversion! It is the beginning for that child, with adults promising to teach that child about God and His love for us.

So you consider being born again to be different from conversion? How can a person be born again and yet be unconverted?

Sorry, Walter, but you have lost your credibility here. Your multiple accounts of demonstrating that you are perfectly willing to treat the Bible carelessly have done you in, and that's not to mention several instances of, shall we say, making claims that clearly were not true.

For my 2 cents on the subject of baptism . I'll go by what I was taught in Catechism . It is essential for a person to be baptized to obtain salvation. That means as harsh as it sounds ;a child not baptized does not obtain salvation and that is true by voluntary or involuntary omission.
John 3 5-8
Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit. What is born by natural birth is a thing of nature, what is born by spiritual birth is a thing of spirit. Do not be surprised, then, at my telling thee, You must be born anew.

My child was baptized as soon as she could be

And that is my total contribution to the discussion.

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It is essential for a person to be baptized to obtain salvation.

While the thief on the cross disproves that, it is still a point well taken. However, the NT pattern is that a person first believes, and then is baptized. Baptism outside of faith is not a scriptural pattern for salvation. Acts 16. 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of [n]the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

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That means as harsh as it sounds ;a child not baptized does not obtain salvation and that is true by voluntary or involuntary omission.
John 3 5-8
Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit. What is born by natural birth is a thing of nature, what is born by spiritual birth is a thing of spirit. Do not be surprised, then, at my telling thee, You must be born anew.

You are making an assumption that the water spoken of by Christ is the water of baptism. It is also possible to view it as the water of natural childbirth, a view which makes sense considering the the final five words of the passage. It could read, "Just as you were born naturally, you must be re-born supernaturally."

At any rate, there is no support there for the idea that infant baptism amounts to a person becoming a Christian, and that is my primary concern. The entire weight of the NT supports the concept that a person must make a decision to follow Christ. There is no recording of an infant baptism at all.

Like I said . This is the Catholic teachings I did not make them up .

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I know His Word as the Living Word and joyfully live according to it.

Just the other day you said it wasn't the living Word. You were in agreement with JL - "The Scriptures aren't alive." "How can words on a page be alive." "is the Door alive."

If the Bible is not the living Word then what is (JL's word)?

None of us sees any piece of reality from every perspective (as God does), and what we do see, we frequently misappropriate. So we benefit incalculably to know well the perspectives of others and run them through our developing grid of Bible-informed and Spirit-indwelt thinking, loving, and doing.

Because we are not God, because we are finite, we cannot know everything at a glance, and therefore our knowledge is limited to one perspective or another. We are finite, and our knowledge is finite. I can only know the world from the limited perspective of my own body and mind.

The effect of this finitude, and even more of sin, should caution us against cocksureness in our claims to knowlege. I am not saying that we should doubt everything.

Acts 16. 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

"Household"" includes babies and children.

So, Baptize your Baby. So, you were Baptized as a baby! Who cares?
What difference does it make...to others???

Well, I drink my Beer with a lime.

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Acts 16. 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

"Household"" includes babies and children.

It included those capable of believing. That did not include infants.

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What difference does it make...to others???

Eternity.