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  • Mar 23, 2021, 01:11 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    For which there is no known natural cause. Absolutely, positively none.

    If you meant to say the Big Bang - not the Universe - it is true there is no known natural cause. That is hardly evidence for God.

    Quote:

    Which is exactly the point. (Ed. morality) It is taught everywhere with remarkable consistency. It clearly indicates a moral code imprinted on the heart and mind of man.
    No, Jl. It clearly indicates that morality is learned - your own words. There are many things "taught everywhere with remarkable consistency". No one claims them to be evidence for God. As to morality's "remarkable consistency", that surely is debatable. Even if true, that is not EVIDENCE for God. For evidence you need a lot more than that.

    Quote:

    That's because you don't know the data. The force of gravity, for instance, is incredibly finely tuned.
    I'll pass over the insult. Your conclusion that gravity is evidence for God makes me start to think you don't really understand what evidence is. No insult intended. Simply because a thing may not be understood does not mean it is evidence for God. History is filled with natural events being thought to be evidence for God until science came along and proved the actual causes.

    Quote:

    The evidence for the resurrection is amazingly substantial.
    I hesitate to challenge this because I don't want to get into Bible Bingo. Tell you what - if you can show evidence for the Resurrection that we can check and verify, I'll consider it. To head you off at the pass, quoting Paul, Luke, Matthew, or your friend at Church or paraclete or the Pope as evidence is simply their belief, what they believe, - not evidence.

    Quote:

    It means the universe had a start, (Ed. entropy) which is to say a cause. As I said earlier, there is no known natural cause.
    You mean the Big Bang - not the Universe. (Cleared up earlier). That's not what the Second Law of Thermodynamics says. In plain language, it says the Universe has a tendency to disorder (entropy) losing complexity leading ultimately to particles separating. This leads to lack of motion, therefore lack of friction, and therefore lack of heat. A universe without heat or motion is a dead Universe. How you get God from this is a mystery. As to the Universe having a cause, it therefore has a God is speculation, not evidence - and bad logic.

    Quote:

    Once again, your lack of knowledge displays itself.
    Always the insult.

    Quote:

    No one familiar with the complexity of even the most "simple" living organism would make such an absurd comment.
    My "absurd" comment was that you make statements and call them evidence even tho you present no evidence. I called such statements non-sequiturs.

    Quote:

    Your comment about Dr. Jastrow, "exhibits an odd lack of knowledge for a scientist in his own field," is so funny that it's hard to describe it. He had a doctorate in theoretical physics from Columbia, established the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, received the NASA Medal for Exceptional Scientific Achievement, and was the director of the Mt. Wilson Observatory.
    I'm glad you're amused. (Note insult from Jl). I'm aware of his CV - very impressive. He's not infallible.

    Quote:

    So for you to question his knowledge is the absolute height of arrogance.
    (Another insult). I have every right to question his knowledge when he offers such a non-sensical proposition. To repeat it, " That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.” Let me ask you - Does that comment make any sense to you? Do you see the contradiction? At least he qualified it by "I think". At best, he was employing hyperbole. He never offered any evidence for his statement (I looked).

    If you reply to this, please hold the insults and address each point.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 01:25 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    This will change nothing. If God himself was to present you with all the evidence in the world (already in Effect) you still could not accept him....same as if God was to reveal himself to you...you will not accept it, you can not accept it.

    Have we met? How do you know so much about me? What I will accept. What I will not accept.

    Quote:

    The evidence you seek is the new Creation that comes with being Born again.
    No, I was seeking regular evidence. You know, the generally accepted definition of the term. When you charge into a discussion with weird stuff, no one will believe or respect what you say. That's a fact, Jack.

    Quote:

    Die to self and believe in the living Word. It is the word of GOD that brought all things into being.
    I think you're on the wrong page.

    Quote:

    Why so much emphasis on the Word?
    I deleted the rest of your bloviating to save any member who may stumble onto your diatribe. In addition to not being able to have a civil discussion, you are very rude. Honey is always a better attraction than a hammer. Go, and do likewise.

    (PS - I noticed you answered none of my comments to you. Tells us a lot about you).
  • Mar 23, 2021, 01:35 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    If you meant to say the Big Bang - not the Universe - it is true there is no known natural cause. That is hardly evidence for God.
    It is presenting God as the best possible explanation, and in fact the only currently plausible explanation,
    Quote:

    No, Jl. It clearly indicates that morality is learned - your own words. There are many things "taught everywhere with remarkable consistency". No one claims them to be evidence for God.
    Actually, it has been used as evidence for God for a long, long time. It's called the moral argument.

    Quote:

    I'll pass over the insult. Your conclusion that gravity is evidence for God makes me start to think you don't really understand what evidence is. No insult intended. Simply because a thing may not be understood does not mean it is evidence for God. History is filled with natural events being thought to be evidence for God until science came along and proved the actual causes.
    It was not an insult but rather an observation. Actually, the data for gravity is very well understood and it is that data that tells us that the fine tuning is incredible as the material I posted at the bottom of the page clearly showed.
    Quote:

    I hesitate to challenge this because I don't want to get into Bible Bingo. Tell you what - if you can show evidence for the Resurrection that we can check and verify, I'll consider it. To head you off at the pass, quoting Paul, Luke, Matthew, or your friend at Church or paraclete or the Pope as evidence is simply their belief, what they believe, - not evidence.
    Well, it does begin with what is historically valid evidence, and that is eye witness testimony from hundreds of individuals. Then there is the willingness of those witnesses to suffer greatly and, in fact, die in defense of it. There is the changing of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday which for Jews would have been unthinkable. The extra-biblical evidence is very strong including Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and others. The incredibly rapid spread of the Christian faith, against great opposition and including great persecution of those who believed, with not one shred of military operations to support it, is great evidence.

    Quote:

    You mean the Big Bang - not the Universe. (Cleared up earlier). That's not what the Second Law of Thermodynamics says. In plain language, it says the Universe has a tendency to disorder (entropy) losing complexity leading ultimately to particles separating. This leads to lack of motion, therefore lack of friction, and therefore lack of heat. A universe without heat or motion is a dead Universe. How you get God from this is a mystery. As to the Universe having a cause, it therefore has a God is speculation, not evidence - and bad logic.
    For something to wind down, it must at first been wound up. That is presently characterized as the Big Bang. The point is that the universe is not a repeating cycle.
    Quote:


    Once again, your lack of knowledge displays itself.
    Always the insult.
    Again, not an insult so much as an observation.

    Quote:


    No one familiar with the complexity of even the most "simple" living organism would make such an absurd comment.
    My "absurd" comment was that you make statements and call them evidence even tho you present no evidence. I called such statements non-sequiturs.
    My comment about life was not an observation. It is empirically demonstrable.


    Quote:

    Your comment about Dr. Jastrow, "exhibits an odd lack of knowledge for a scientist in his own field," is so funny that it's hard to describe it. He had a doctorate in theoretical physics from Columbia, established the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, received the NASA Medal for Exceptional Scientific Achievement, and was the director of the Mt. Wilson Observatory.


    I'm glad you're amused. (Note insult from Jl). I'm aware of his CV - very impressive. He's not infallible.
    There is no point in your continued whining. You have no substantial science background, and yet you decided that Jastrow had an "odd lack of knowledge". It was, for you, a regrettable statement.


    Quote:

    So for you to question his knowledge is the absolute height of arrogance.


    (Another insult).
    If you don't want to wear it, then don't put it on.

    Quote:

    I have every right to question his knowledge when he offers such a non-sensical proposition. To repeat it, " That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.” Let me ask you - Does that comment make any sense to you? Do you see the contradiction? At least he qualified it by "I think". At best, he was employing hyperbole. He never offered any evidence for his statement (I looked).
    Semi-fair point except that he was using a great deal of evidence to make his point. Perhaps you should have qualified your statement by "I think".
    Quote:



    If you reply to this, please hold the insults and address each point.

    Like you did when you said, "Wow - Mr. Nasty raises his nasty head?"
  • Mar 23, 2021, 02:15 PM
    waltero
    Point being, you will not accept evidence, regular or otherwise. Your not open to it.
    Not only that you are only into picking it apart...No amount of evidence will prevent you from disbelieving.

    Example:
    I don't believe there is a God, but what gives you the right to say there is only one true God; I don't believe in God but you are wrong in saying there is only one God. Yah, you got it!

    Why do you act as if you would accept any "regular" evidence? Testimony isn't "regular" evidence?

    Here, I will post it again just in case you missed it the first time.

    https://www.everystudent.com/wires/is-god-real.html
    https://notashamedofthegospel.com/ap...hat%20DNA%20is.

    DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program.

    You see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.

    Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."

    Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it."

    Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
  • Mar 23, 2021, 02:23 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Point being, you will not accept evidence, regular or otherwise. Your not open to it.

    You have not presented any believable evidence, regular or otherwise.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 02:41 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    You have not presented any believable evidence, regular or otherwise.

    Lol - he is amazing, N'est-ce Pa?
  • Mar 23, 2021, 02:49 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Point being, you will not accept evidence, regular or otherwise. Your not open to it.
    Not only that you are only into picking it apart...No amount of evidence will prevent you from disbelieving.

    My dear Waltero, You barketh up a tree you knoweth not.

    Your powers of perspicacity are truly fathomable.

    Quote:

    Example:
    I don't believe there is a God, but what gives you the right to say there is only one true God?
    Is that addressed to me? Or are you talking to yourself? It's confusing.

    Quote:

    Here, I will post it again just in case you missed it the first time.
    https://www.everystudent.com/wires/is-god-real.html

    Can you put it in your own words?


    Quote:

    DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program.
    And this is evidence for God how?

    Quote:

    You see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.

    Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."

    Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it."

    Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
    The argument from design is a very old one. My friend Aquinas, I believe. However, it is closer to an analogy than evidence for God. But keep trying. You're very entertaining.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 03:53 PM
    waltero
    What use is God to you? I would guess that you feel you have no need for GOD.
    You don't need evidence, you have no use for it.

    The Carnality of it all!
  • Mar 23, 2021, 04:03 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    What use is God to you? I would guess that you feel you have no need for GOD.
    You don't need evidence, you have no use for it.

    The Carnality of it all!

    It's not about me having evidence for God. It's about my challenging another member who claimed there was evidence for God. I asked him to provide the evidence, and he couldn't. Then others jumped in, and here we are.

    For the record, I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?

    (PS - You make an awful lot of assumptions).
  • Mar 23, 2021, 04:07 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    What use is God to you? I would guess that you feel you have no need for GOD.
    You don't need evidence, you have no use for it.

    The Carnality of it all!

    Saying that is definitely not how to spread God's love and the Gospel message.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 04:18 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Saying that is definitely not how to spread God's love and the Gospel message.

    AMEN!
  • Mar 23, 2021, 04:21 PM
    waltero
    "For the record, I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?"

    That being the case, there can be no evidence provided for "you"...It ceases to exist. "You" don't need it to believe, nor will you accept it...you don't believe in it; how you going to find it?
    It doesn't mean that somebody can't come to the faith by what they find as evidence...as in the case of DNA?

    Some evidence has shown people that there is a God who created the Universe, they might act as if there's a God, while not believing in God...Jordan Peterson


    @Wonder: many people Feel they have no need for Repentance...no need for a Savior/God, no amount of "believable" evidence will change that.

    The Carnal mind asks for evidence or a sign.
    Worship, seek God in Spirit and in truth.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 04:39 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    @Wonder: many people Feel they have no need for Repentance...no need for a Savior/God

    The Carnal mind asks for evidence or a sign.

    And again, this is NOT how to share God's love and the Gospel message.

    If people feel they have no need, then what is our responsibility?
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:12 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    @Wonder: many people Feel they have no need for Repentance...no need for a Savior/God
    Exactly right, Walter.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:14 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    "For the record, I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?"

    That being the case, there can be no evidence provided for "you"...It ceases to exist. "You" don't need it to believe, nor will you accept it...you don't believe in it; how you going to find it?

    There you go with your assumptions again. If you present evidence (not DNA silliness) I'll be glad to accept it.

    Quote:

    Some evidence has shown people that there is a God who created the Universe, they might act as if there's a God, while not believing in God...Jordan Peterson
    Evidence, to be evidence, must be based on fact and be verifiable. Anecdotes about someone believing something is not evidence.

    Quote:

    The Carnal mind asks for evidence or a sign. Worship, seek God in Spirit and in truth.
    Do you ever speak in everyday language? We've had many like you over the years. The guy who absolutely claimed without a doubt that the second coming was going to be in October. October came and went, no second coming. That guy disappeared the next day. He never returned. Couldn't face the music. You remind me of him. No offense. It takes all kinds. Do you have any info re the end times?
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:14 PM
    waltero
    Quote:

    If people feel they have no need, then what is our responsibility?
    People who feel they have no need for God, will not be searching for God (Evidence).
    Even if "Believable" evidence was to fall on there face, they would reject.

    Quote:

    For the record, I don't believe there is any evidence for God.
    Athos, doesn't believe in Evidence (for God), he will not subject himself to it.

    Trying to deny the 'existence' of something you don't believe exist?

    Quote:

    I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?"
    Sorry, I took that as "you believe in faith" not evidence. It would be a great substitute

    You fail to recognize testimony as evidence.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:24 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    People who feel they have no need for God, will not be searching for God (Evidence).
    Even if "Believable" evidence was to fall on there face, they would reject.

    Athos, doesn't believe in Evidence, he will not subject himself to it.

    Trying to deny the 'existence' of something you don't believe exist?

    Dear God, Do you purposefully try to be wrong? Now you're confusing the search for God with evidence.

    "Athos will not subject himself to evidence. He doesn't believe in Evidence".

    You're condemning me is so typical of your ilk. You need to strike out and punish. You preach about hell to people. I'm right, aren't I? But it's for their own good because you love them.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:42 PM
    waltero
    Sorry, the first part was directed at WonderGirl.

    Quote:

    If people feel they have no need, then what is our responsibility?
    I write to fast and forget to categorize my response.

    Athos, You stated yourself that you Don't "believe" (oppose to Haven't found) there is Evidence?

    So it would appear that you are just trying to deny 'existence' of something that you don't believe even exist??? How ridiculous is that.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:43 PM
    jlisenbe
    A little advice, Walter. My experience has been that Athos believes the parts of the Bible that agree with him.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 05:46 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    People who feel they have no need for God, will not be searching for God (Evidence).
    Even if "Believable" evidence was to fall on there face, they would reject.

    Now, answer the question I asked: What is OUR responsibility?
  • Mar 23, 2021, 06:05 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Athos, You stated yourself that you Don't "believe" (oppose to Haven't found) there is Evidence?

    That's correct. I don't believe there is evidence. That doesn't mean I can't be corrected.

    Quote:

    So it would appear that you are just trying to deny 'existence' of something that you don't believe even exist???
    I am NOT trying to deny existence. I have NEVER denied the existence of God. You are putting words in my mouth. READ-MY-LIPS - I believe the existence of God cannot be proved. That is not denying God's existence. The reading comprehension here is abysmal. It's very frustrating when the simplest concepts have to be repeated and explained over and over again.

    Quote:

    How ridiculous is that.
    Now you're starting to sound like jl. Please god, not another one.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    You fail to recognize testimony as evidence.

    Testimony is not evidence of God's existence. It is by definition third-party.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 06:18 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Now you're starting to sound like jl. Please god, not another one.
    Another one of those insulting comments that WG doesn't see. So much for the civility police.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 07:24 PM
    waltero
    Quote:

    A little advice, Walter. My experience has been that Athos believes the parts of the Bible that agree with him.
    I hear you jlisenbe, I am bored and feel the need to keep him entertained

    Quote:

    Testimony is not evidence of God's existence. It is by definition third-party.
    Not considered evidence in who's book? Yet it is Considered evidence in every country across the Globe.  
    Quote:

    I don't believe there is any evidence for God. "If there were, why faith"?
    Because Faith makes it Possible. Possible to "see" the evidence all around us.

    Quote:

    I don't believe there is any evidence for God.
    Indicates lack (Spiritual at least) in your belief of the existence of God. You are playing the Devil's Advocate. If you believe what the Bible says  then you know there is Plenty of Evidence. Your taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is Absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the Premise.

    Quote:

    I don't believe there is any evidence for God
    Tell me, is there any Spiritual evidence of God? Or are we just Talking about the Carnality of GOD???
  • Mar 23, 2021, 07:30 PM
    paraclete
    Just another argument for the sake of argument, it is all Jl and Athos do
  • Mar 23, 2021, 07:36 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Just another argument for the sake of argument, it is all Jl and Athos do
    One man's argument is another man's discussion. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else, but for crying out loud stop complaining incessantly about it. It gets tiresome.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 07:41 PM
    waltero
    Just killing time.

    I thought that was what this site was all about? Crying, whining Refuting the Truth etc.

    It's like saying; I know there's a God and if you can show me Proof that God exists I will believe. But right now I don't "Believe".

    Don't wait till the evidence reveals itself...that is all you.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 07:45 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Just killing time.
    Pretty close to it.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 08:50 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    I thought that was what this site was all about? Crying, whining Refuting the Truth etc.

    It's like saying; I know there's a God and if you can show me Proof that God exists I will believe. But right now I don't "Believe".

    Don't wait till the evidence reveals itself...that is all you.

    That's NOT how to do mission work and bring people to Christ!
  • Mar 23, 2021, 09:15 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    One man's argument is another man's discussion. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else, but for crying out loud stop complaining incessantly about it. It gets tiresome.

    No I won't go somewhere else I have been here just as long as you have and on current events much longer
  • Mar 23, 2021, 09:48 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    I hear you jlisenbe, I am bored and feel the need to keep him entertained

    Using what I said is not very creative. Also, a self-proclaimed Christian should not make comments like you did. Jl is a bad influence on you.

    Quote:

    Not considered evidence in who's book?
    Here's part of your problem. The discussion concerns itself with evidence for the existence of God. When you stray from that, you are losing focus. Books are not the topic.

    Quote:

    Yet it is Considered evidence in every country across the Globe.
    Testimony for the existence of God is "considered evidence in every country across the Globe". That's a pretty wild statement. How do you prove that? How do you know that? That's what I meant by you losing focus.

    Quote:

    Because Faith makes it Possible. Possible to "see" the evidence all around us.
    That's a statement from faith. If that's what you believe, I have no problem with that. But don't conflate what you believe as evidence for the existence of God. This is becoming repetitive. It usually ends up this way. Are you really trying to understand the point I'm making?

    Quote:

    Indicates lack (Spiritual at least) in your belief of the existence of God.
    Waltero, you have no idea what I believe. You are saying my belief is lacking - not because of anything I said, but because you don't like what I'm saying. Your need to criticize betrays you.

    Quote:

    You are playing the Devil's Advocate.
    I don't think you know what the Devil's Advocate means.

    Quote:

    If you believe what the Bible says then you know there is Plenty of Evidence.
    Now you're putting conditions on HOW to believe. Can't you discuss without bringing in the Bible - just using your own God-given wisdom factory? There is not a scintilla of evidence in the Bible proving the existence of God. There are plenty of stories and history about God and the Hebrews and Jesus and the angels, but none of that is evidence. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. You are free to believe it intensely to your dying day, but you are not free to claim it as evidence for the existence of God.

    That's like you saying you are the King of Slovakia and for proof you say "I am the King of Slovakia and since I said I am the King of Slovakia, therefore I am the King of Slovakia". Sorry to be so basic, but I don't know how else to get the point across to you." A self-referential "proof" is not a proof. That should be self-evident.

    Quote:

    Your taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is Absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the Premise.
    If the premise was refuted, how could it have been a reality in the first place? Another way of saying this is, How can a premise be true and not true at the same time? You're getting way over your head, Waltero. I understand you're hurt by all this God talk because it's not the way you normally think about God and you feel threatened. There is nothing to be threatened about. It will deepen your faith and remove the crutch of needing to "prove" the existence of God.

    Quote:

    Tell me, is there any Spiritual evidence of God? Or are we just Talking about the Carnality of GOD???
    Are you saying God has two aspects - one spiritual and one "carnaL" (I guess you mean by carnal the physical or material). I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no evidence for the existence of God. Full stop. Period.
  • Mar 23, 2021, 11:45 PM
    waltero
    Fact is, the Bible knows you better than you know yourself. 
    Quote:

    I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?"
    God Calls for faith therefore there can be no evidence, is that right? You are fighting Both sides against the middle.

    Quote:

    If the premise was refuted, how could it have been a reality in the first place?
    Exactly! Your trying to set up a trap. You put a question out there, a question that you don't believe "In" and try to have us deliver the reality of that same something that you don't even subscribe too. It's like the Sadducees, trying to pose a question to Jesus, using the resurrection...yah, yah, that's it...The Resurrection...You mean the Resurrection that they don't believe in. Luke 20:27-40There is no Evidence in your mind, there can be no evidence. Same As the Sadducees, they were closed minded and would not believe the Evidence (Testimony, Civilization, History, Bible, Visceral, etc.) that stood right in front of them (Jesus, in case you missed it). Doesn't exist in your mind so what are you trying to disprove. You have to wonder why stupid people believe in evidence that doesn't exist???

    You asked for Evidence. Testimony is classified as evidence.
    I don't get upset about such things. I just speak what I know to be true and leave it at that. As you can see, I entered this Knowing that there is nothing that can be said or proved to those that are not open to receive the Truth. You seek evidence/proof (bold face lie), there will be none given. 

    Quote:

    I understand you're hurt by all this God talk because it's not the way you normally think about God and you feel threatened.
    OK? I believe in God/Bible. How then can I feel threatened? I know who I live for. It is not I who feels threatened because I am not in the Picture...it's all Jesus baby. Get out of yourself and enter into the life and times of Jesus, the King of Kings.

    You should request that they Lock this thread being that you are not getting the Answers you are looking for.

    Quote:

    You most likely won't be getting any sign (evidence) from God. Might try to step out in faith before demanding Evidence.
    I started off with this. knowing that you pretend to seek something that you have no intention on subscribing too.

    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. I have plenty of evidence within me to believe in the one and only living God.
    Just as God has Evidence. You might learn that while your standing in the White throne of Judgment ( I truly hope not). How is my Evidence going to help you??? Waist of time seeking evidence. Seek the Cross of Jesus. there you will have all the proof you need. Rest on the Promises of God...believe and you shall be saved. It is as simple as believing, nothing more.

    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.
    Seems Foolishness to you don't it.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 04:23 AM
    paraclete
    The fact that you exist is proof, Scripture says God knitted you together in your mother's womb
  • Mar 24, 2021, 04:29 AM
    jlisenbe
    The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence. For historical events, eye witness testimony is regarded as the gold standard of evidence, and especially so when multiple, independent witnesses agree together on an event. It explains why the NT authors were so careful in emphasizing eye witness accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. For instance, Luke begins with this. "1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

    Peter put it this way. "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." Now if these people had been making big bucks off this story, then we could be suspicious, but instead they lived very modestly and in the midst of, not great public acclaim, but great persecution and resistance, and eventually were imprisoned and killed. Yet they did not change their accounts.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 08:58 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence.

    Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 09:07 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

    Exactly! And the evidence that brings you to a decision about anything isn't necessarily what I require.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 09:15 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.

    Convincing enough for those that wanted to believe without challenge, question or scrutiny. The definition of FAITH...belief without evidence.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Exactly! And the evidence that brings you to a decision about anything isn't necessarily what I require.

    A fair point, even though you are a Christian too.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 10:15 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.
    Read more carefully. I'll underline the relevant points ths time.

    "The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence. For historical events, eye witness testimony is regarded as the gold standard of evidence, and especially so when multiple, independent witnesses agree together on an event."

    There is no real historical "proof" in the same sense that there can be scientific "proof". It's the same idea that prompts our legal standard of "reasonable doubt". Not a certainty, but assuredness that has no "reasonable doubt".

    Quote:

    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.



    Sorry Walter, but that is far from being true. Certainly some evidence is more compelling than others, and perhaps that's what you meant, but the quality of evidence is far from being subject to personal opinions.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 02:42 PM
    waltero
    If you can't find the Proof/evidence of the existence of God, then your missing something. What I know as Proof/evidence is not capable of Bringing God/Jesus into (your...mine, yes) being. The Evidence you seek is on the Cross. Why can't you receive (Jesus) the evidence that has already presented (Jesus) itself? Could it be Human Nature that repels??? Bring it in through the Spirit.
    Quote:

    Can't you discuss without bringing in the Bible
    In and of myself - NO. I don't even know how that would be Possible. "Can you show me proof of the existence of God, without the Presence of God...OK God, we must ask you to leave the room. Strike God from the record." Hahaha your a Funny Boy.
    Quote:

    There are plenty of stories and history about God and the Hebrews and Jesus and the angels, but none of that is evidence.
    It's only the living Word...Christ, the Word incarnate.  (John 1:14-18)
    Ok, If you can bring me proof of the existence of God then I will believe...believe in what? God or the evidence???Fact of the Matter is the evidence is perfectly clear and yet you still don't believe it exists...that's Human nature. John 20:29 "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    Go for the Blessing.
  • Mar 24, 2021, 03:05 PM
    jlisenbe
    Paul makes two arguments. One is the argument from creation. " 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "

    The other is the moral argument found in chapter two. "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."
  • Mar 24, 2021, 04:36 PM
    Athos
    Waltero, there's so much here that you're missing. I'll try to be brief. You seem like a nice guy, so all I ask of you is for you to consider with an open mind.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Fact is, the Bible knows you better than you know yourself.

    Walter, please see this sentence for what it is - a statement of your faith. Believe what you will, but please don't call it a FACT because you believe in it.

    Quote:

    God Calls for faith therefore there can be no evidence, is that right?
    That's one way of putting it. You're starting to understand.

    Quote:

    You are fighting Both sides against the middle.
    Now it's me that doesn't understand. Please explain.

    Quote:

    Your trying to set up a trap. You put a question out there, a question that you don't believe "In" and try to have us deliver the reality of that same something that you don't even subscribe too.
    You're backsliding now - and so soon. What you see as a trap is simply your fear asserting itself. I know it's hard to face what I'm saying, but to claim what I don't believe in or what I don't subscribe to re the evidence for God as the same as not believing in God (if that's what you're doing) can't be supported by a single thing I've said.

    Quote:

    It's like the Sadducees, .................................yah, yah, that's it.....................The Resurrection..
    ...................... Luke 20:27-40................................................ ........There is no Evidence in your mind, there can be no evidence. Same As the Sadducees, ............................
    You're getting WAY off the track here.

    Quote:

    You have to wonder why stupid people believe in evidence that doesn't exist???
    Waltero, waltero - come on. I never said that, and you know I never said that. Why are you making up stuff like that? People who believe don't need evidence. Paul said what I've been saying, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen".

    Quote:

    You asked for Evidence. Testimony is classified as evidence.
    First-hand in-person testimony is classified as evidence, but it can be refuted. (I assume you're talking about the legal system). Second- or third-hand testimony is NOT evidence. It is classified as hearsay. The only exception I know of is a death bed statement. If you're referring to Bible passages, all of it is hearsay in legal terms. Yes, the Bible says it itself is truth - but re-read my previous post above on this subject.

    Quote:

    I just speak what I know to be true
    No, be honest, re the topic being discussed, you speak what you BELIEVE to be true, not what you know to be true.

    Quote:

    I entered this Knowing that there is nothing that can be said or proved to those that are not open to receive the Truth.
    Then you entered this with bias. If you truly believed that, why are you here?

    Quote:

    You seek evidence/proof (bold face lie), there will be none given.
    I do not seek evidence/proof of evidence for God. I've made it clear I don't believe there is any. I challenged those who do believe there is evidence - none has been forthcoming. You say, "There will be none given". Agreed, because there is none. I don't know what the "bold face lie" is all about. If you care to explain, I'll listen.

    Quote:

    I believe in God/Bible. How then can I feel threatened?
    Many Bible believers feel threatened. This is revealed by their insistence on telling others they are going to hell if they do not believe. They make this a major proposition of their Christianity - equal to and sometimes greater than the Christian message of love. It's a "tell".

    Quote:

    I know who I live for.
    I'm glad for you.

    Quote:

    You should request that they Lock this thread being that you are not getting the Answers you are looking for.
    If the kitchen is too hot for you, feel free to close it yourself. I am not looking for answers. I am challenging Christians hoping that they will examine their beliefs, and move away from the understanding of a religion that has not grown with them into adulthood.

    Quote:

    I started off with this. knowing that you pretend to seek something that you have no intention on subscribing too.
    "Knowing"? How could you possibly have known what I was doing? And "pretending"? I hope this post has dissuaded you from that "knowledge".

    Quote:

    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.
    You couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, if you realize your error (a really big one, btw), it will have been worth it.

    Quote:

    I have plenty of evidence within me to believe in the one and only living God.
    I never said you didn't. Are you implying I did?

    Quote:

    Just as God has Evidence.................. White throne of Judgment ...................oing to help you???
    Seek the Cross of Jesus. there you will have all the proof y.....................on the Promises of God...believe and you shall be saved. It is as ..........he message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.........................
    More threats from Revelation, why am I not surprised?

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