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Just for the record, it's not just a black problem. As long as you think it is, then you effectively divide and conquer and can dismiss the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.
Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?
You said it was not just a black problem, and then you list problems that DO seem to be black problems, or at least racial problems, such as segregation and discrimination, so perhaps I don't understand exactly where you're trying to go with this. What exactly, in your view, IS the problem?Quote:
the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.
You didn't answer my question,
Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?
Must have missed it.
I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.
Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?
here's my two cents worth, the problem to be solved is equality, it is a problem that existed for centuries and despite various proclamations has not been truly implemented, the old attitudes of superiority obviously remain, deeply rooted in the culture. Had the africans been free settlers, coming to the americas as others had things might have been different, but manifest destiny for the Europeans to rule remains. the Europeans have continually forced their superiority upon other races, the indians, the africans, the chinese, even now the hispanics as well. This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master raceQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Even if I agreed with that, and I most certainly don't, it would still leave open the question. How would that be solved?
I'd change one word -- "the white master race."Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Now, why do whites too often consider themselves that?
My take is it goes beyond doing the right thing for some. They feel like they're in the same boat. Or have shared experiences. Remember what I said about CLASS?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Too many poor people.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Our founding documents say everyone is equal, but in reality some are more equal than others. At the top of the food chain rich landowners have always dominated. Hundreds of years later guess who is still at the top of the food chain. I don't think rich land owners care about race as much as they do wealth, but we can't have poor blacks and whites united in their own interest now can we? They may decide changes that benefit them more than rich guys was possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Imagine that, poor people and minorities having power to change stuff in their favor.
You have outlined the problem, but not the solution(s). Reducing out of wedlock births would help A LOT. Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot. Greatly reducing the criminal activities of young black men would go a long way. Getting the message across to men that fathering children outside of marriage is disgraceful would help a lot. Teaching our children that the world does not owe them a living, so they better figure out how they are going to earn money as adults would help a lot. Beginning once again to honor and support the two parent family would help a great deal. Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ helps enormously. Stopping the endless harping about the supposedly widespread practice of police murdering black people would be productive. And here's the good news. Most of that does not require the help of the government. "Rich land owners" could not stop it or even slow it down. It's what poor people could do all on their own, but it would need our support and encouragement because it would be a slow and difficult process. It's much easier to just want the feds to throw some money at it, but if the past fifty years is any indicator, that will not work.Quote:
Too many poor people.
jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing? so what do you propose? mass sterilisation, and who would you select? not your republican power baseQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No, I don't. A return to basic morality and a change in public beliefs is what I am advocating for. It is not political. At one time, a few decades ago and before abortion was widespread, and even before the BC pill, out of wedlock births were rare because it was generally believed that sex was reserved for marriage, or at the very least it was understood that becoming pregnant outside of marriage was a lousy idea. Sex had not yet become the casual affair it is now.Quote:
jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing?
I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you. Maybe we will use the power of the vote to get what we want! It's not like you're listening, or believing any way.
Relax and work on you're awareness because going backwards in time ain't happening.
Again, your memory of the "good old days" astounds me! Whether I lived in a rural area or near a city, sex was NOT generally reserved for marriage. Stories were legion about e.g., "Sally" who snuck off to a back-street abortionist or "Charlene" whose Aunt Becky "helped" her get rid of "something" or "Margaret" who was sent to live for six or seven months (hmm...) with an out-of-state relative.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Maybe you, JL, were Mr. Respectful, but far too many guys my girlfriends and I dated, after a few dates, ended up taking us to secluded parking spots -- a bluff overlooking a moonlit lake, a dark and empty warehouse parking lot, the basement rec room after his parents and siblings went to bed ("Come downstairs with me to see our new ping-pong table and dartboard!").
Yes, sex, especially before marriage, has always been a casual affair and greatly sought after.
Why are the schools terrible??? I say it's too often because the teacher training is awful. I attended four years at a well-respected teachers college where I learned way too much about math and literature and science and history. We students begged for practical courses on how to manage a classroom of thirty kids of various skills and abilities and behavior patterns. "Nope," they told us, "you have to learn calculus and the history of Albania. And you'll figure out how to teach once you're in charge of a classroom." Um, it doesn't work that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.Quote:
I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you.
WG, I'm not going with my memory. I am referring to data. Anecdotal stories are completely useless.
As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.
Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.
Circulating more money to more people is viable, and telling someone to stop complaining against wrong doing and long standing discriminatory policies and practices is insulting. That's after centuries of abuses, cruelty, and atrocities so some rich landowner could peacock in high society. Sadly the cruelty and atrocities didn't stop when the slavery ended, even after another century of "complaining". That's okay JL, keep preach and not listen.Quote:
You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.
Are you guys still under a consent decree because you thought jail was the place for unruly kids? I can imagine kids and parents "complaining" to a higher authority with your methods and they did.Quote:
As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.
Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.
Don't blame anyone but yourselves for that and well you know I've read the whole sordid public account of YOUR actions.
Accurate abortion statistics weren't kept back then. It was a case-by-case situation, usually hidden from society.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I have taught in an inner-city school. As a public library volunteer coordinator, I've coordinated with county officials who assigned community service jobs to both black and white (and Asian and Filipino and Latinx) teens and adults, and put them in my capable hands to do various jobs at the library where I worked. I know what black kids are up against.Quote:
As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.
"You do have a valid point in talking about teacher training but..." BUT what? You said pretty much what I did. We lacked hands-on, role-playing instruction as part of our teacher training. It wasn't REAL teacher training; it was "let's fill their heads with all sorts of non-essential facts, information they'll never need and use."Quote:
Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.
Elaborate. What subject and how many years? Where?Quote:
I have. I know what black kids are up against.
Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??
I added to my previous response. Please read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I don't understand your comment and demand for an explanation.Quote:
Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??
This is what he does. He asks for details from you of whatever is being discussed, then he finds fault with those details and claims his experience/knowledge is superior to yours. He's not a seeker of truth, he's a troll who feeds on arguments and disputes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
His latest tactic (on race) is blaming the victim. He talks about the crime and current difficulties of black folks while completely ignoring 4 centuries of the black experience in the US. He demands solutions yet offers none of his own except the hackneyed ones we've all heard from racists for years.
When he is advised to pay attention to what blacks are saying all over the media - especially in these critical days when so much proof of excessive police violence against blacks is shown constantly on video - he ignores the advice and refuses to enter a dialogue and just returns to his worn comments that serve on one.
It's amazing that towns that are predominantly white have white protestors marching for the first time. But he just ignores that. Not for him to be part of the solution. He prefers the 1950s when segregation was the rule and blacks "knew their place".
Even in Europe, they're protesting. Germany, London, Italy, and all the way from Australia to Brazil to Africa and the Middle East.
Now he will post the usual nasties when he is called on the carpet. Most of us are used to them by now.
Sad. Very sad. When the truth won't work, then just make things up.
I asked, "What subject and how many years? Where?"
Subject taught in inner city school. Public library volunteer coordinator? Not real clear.
How many years? No answer.
Where? No answer.
Why do teachers with the same training succeed when in non inner-city schools? No answer.
Didn't demand an answer. Just a simple, thoughtful question. Answering is up to you. It's not a big deal.
Why the third degree?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You didn't ask until now.Quote:
Public library volunteer coordinator? Not real clear.
How many years? No answer.
Where? No answer.
For fifteen years, I was a library volunteer coordinator, matching a total of 25-30 volunteers (plus, at our library, disinterested and even resistant, community service workers) with library jobs that suited their skill set and benefited the library. I made every effort to ensure that they each felt comfortable with their jobs and fully understood their responsibilities. Meanwhile, I was also the head cataloger.
This is the first time you asked this.Quote:
Why do teachers with the same training succeed when in non inner-city schools? No answer.
Huh? When?Quote:
Didn't demand an answer. Just a simple, thoughtful question. Answering is up to you. It's not a big deal.
How dare those inner city folks rebel against your superior breeding and training. They should stop complaining and do as they're told.
Please engage sarcasm font to max degree.
I posted, "I asked, 'What subject and how many years? Where?'" That was my exact question I asked several posts earlier. Your reply? "You didn't ask until now." And as it turns out, according to your reply, you have never taught a subject in an inner city school classroom unless, of course, you count a library as an inner city school. That's why I ask for clarifications. I certainly don't discount your experiences and I accept that you did well, but coordinating volunteers is not teaching.
Also, several posts ago, I asked this. "Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??" When I repeated the question above, only slightly reworded, your reply? "This is the first time you asked this." So as of now, asked twice, answered zero times.
It's really my fault. I should have known better.
I did it for 17 years. You go do it for even 17 days and we can talk about it. Until then, sarcasm is all you have.Quote:
How dare those inner city folks rebel against your superior breeding and training.
Yes, I've taught in an inner city school, but since you've decided to be so nasty about it, that's where my recounting ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Of course, a volunteer/cs worker coordinator is teaching! It's very hands-on teaching. I just didn't sit in my comfy office chair, waving a scepter. I had to interview each individual, figure out suitable jobs, train (TEACH!) them how to do the jobs, always be aware of how and what the volunteers/cs workers were doing, how well they were doing, be able to tactfully correct errors they were making, and instill in them a sense of pride that they were adding to their own store of knowledge and contributing to their community. (Gee, sounds like a teaching job to me...)
Sorry. I didn't read back far enough apparently. Please, in the future, instead of using all that energy to retype, refer to an earlier post by its number. Don't restate it.Quote:
Also, several posts ago, I asked this. "Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??" When I repeated the question above, only slightly reworded, your reply? "This is the first time you asked this." So as of now, asked twice, answered zero times.
It's really my fault. I should have known better.
Being honest is not being nasty, but it's all good.
I don't think you have been a classroom teacher in an inner city school, but perhaps that was the case. At any rate, it is a different deal from coordinating volunteers. I would think it is dramatically different, and I would think that if you had even taught a year, you would know that for certain.
The public school board in Minneapolis voted unanimously to terminate its contract with the city’s police department. Other cities are considering same. How is that going to affect education in inner city schools ?
I would guess not much. They will simply hire private security. Might even save some money.Quote:
How is that going to affect education in inner city schools ?
So now, I'm lying???Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Someday, if you're ever nice to me on a regular basis, I'll tell you how similar they are -- which I tried to explain already in my post #147. I'll tell you about John L. (black student) and Brandon M. (black cs worker). I used the same psychology and teaching methods for both of them with great results.Quote:
At any rate, it is a different deal from coordinating volunteers. I would think it is dramatically different, and I would think that if you had even taught a year, you would know that for certain.
What a world we have! Corrupt cops, corrupt teachers, corrupt politicians, corrupt citizens? And this is the land of the free home of the brave? Please Scotty beam me up! These MoFos is crazy!
Unanswered questions lead to doubts.Quote:
So now, I'm lying???
Tell me Tal, if you can? to what do you attribute to the cause of this corruption? I say it is the big I, this so called freedom where every man thinks he is better than his neighbour. You have drunk the koolaid and plunged your nation into chaos, and all in the name of rights. The rule of law is overturned and anarchy prevails, and nowhere is this more evident than in the leadership. The eighteenth century thinking doesn't serve any longer because there is only lip service to the ideals of equality. Every man is equal as long as his skin colour is the same, thus it was then and nothing has changedQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
You have no rights in Australia?
Every man thinks he is better than his neighbor? That is garbage. Of course it is true in some instances, just like it is everywhere, but it is not even close to being a major problem. You don't live here. How could you possibly know that such a thing is true?
Not much of a reply. It's always difficult to reply to the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
we don't have the right to be idiots and endanger our neighbour or to be corrupt, we have a different ethos. I read, I study history and what I see is some sort of slavish adherence to eighteenth century thinking. Just because some educated men laid down some basics but didn't believe they applied to them doesn't mean all the ideas were sound or applicable to life over two hundred years later. Capitalist society is a society based on greed and exploitation, unfortunately, socialism can suffer from the same failure and what works is something in the middle of absolute freedom and absolute control. Your president thinks he has absolute control and there are very few checks of what he does and what he says. Democracy is more than the election of a tyrant and what tyou are seeing is the will of the people, true democracy and the powerful seek to deny itQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Capitalism is not based on greed or exploitation. It is simply based on the private ownership of the economy. It is the greatest economic system in existence. It does need to be regulated lest greed lead to exploitation, but that can happen under socialism as well. There is a difference between a nanny state, which is what I think you prefer, and a capitalist economy. But don't worry. We will likely kill the goose that laid that golden egg, as will you.Quote:
Capitalist society is a society based on greed and exploitation, unfortunately, socialism can suffer from the same failure and what works is something in the middle of absolute freedom and absolute control.
Racism is but the tool of those that seek control of the circulation of the money supply. Divide and conquer. Equality comes from access to capital. I think it has always been that way. The social order reflects that to a great extent, as we still adhere to a class system that promotes the uber rich, and working poor, and most in between. In that respect nothing has changed, except the willingness to be dependent on the uber rich and a free market capitalist system aided and abetted by the government functions they control. Since ancient times it's always been about the money, and who controls the supply of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Freedom and equality were for some and not others and that's just history. It was then and is now the great distraction for who controls the MONEY! All these side issues of religion and guns add to the distraction, and the rich keep control of the money supply and governments that write the rules to keep it that way. Stop and think what would happen in this country if the poorer black and whites completely dismantled the tools of racism, and focused instead on the economic issues that have made them the bottom tier of a great economic engine that has enriched many. What if they ignored the voices, patterns and policies that say they don't work hard enough to serve the corporate masters to deserve a LIVING wage?
What if anyone's well being didn't depend on the business cycle contractions? What if you could more than double the countries economy just by a simple thing that eliminates poverty? Never been done you say? We should ask ourselves why NOT? My answer is that the zeal for more money, power, and control of the money has corrupted and bankrupted our own common sense.
We never should have bought the snake oil from the huckster, no not the dufus, can't entirely blame him, but from those founding fathers that sold us the notions of freedom and didn't deliver.
I guess it's too much to hope that you will share this idea?Quote:
What if you could more than double the countries economy just by a simple thing that eliminates poverty? Never been done you say?
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