Ask Me Help Desk - Thunberg or is it Thunderberg

jlisenbe: This the biggest "System" anyone has ever worked on just, maybe, the most complex. G.W. is a religion to some people.....it can't become that if it is to truly EVALUATED: Science cannot follow "agendas"....scientific evaluations can't be "forced" in terms of the proofs fitting predesigned narratives....and that is the danger when we allow "emotionally driven" decisions instead of data driven decisions....So far, the "data" is driving statistical outcomes.....and some of the G.W. scientists have been caught "manipulating" the data, not a confidence builder if you are trying to sell your ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacuum7

...and some of the G.W. scientists have been caught "manipulating" the data, not a confidence builder if you are trying to sell your ideas.

Please provide specifics on your claim that some GW scientists have been caught "manipulating" the data.

Athos: Here is a sampling of what I was referring to around data manipulation by G.W. scientists:

Climate change whistleblower alleges NOAA manipulated data ...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/5/...

Feb 05, 2017 · The climate change debate went nuclear Sunday over a whistleblower’s explosive allegation that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association manipulated data to advance a political agenda by hiding the global warming “pause.”.

Author: Valerie Richardson

World leaders duped by manipulated global warming data ...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...leaders-duped-

Feb 04, 2017 · Exposed: How world leaders were duped into investing billions over manipulated global warming data. The Mail on Sunday can reveal a landmark paper exaggerated global warming

Fed Whistleblower: NOAA Scientists Manipulated Temperature ...

https://www.climatedepot.com/2017/02...ts-manipulated...

NOAA Scientists Manipulated Temperature Data To Make Global Warming Seem Worse World Leaders Duped Over Manipulated Global Warming Data The Mail on Sunday today reveals astonishing evidence that the organisation that is the world’s leading source of climate data rushed to publish a landmark paper that exaggerated global warming and was timed to influence the historic Paris Agreement on climate change.

Climate change whistleblower alleges NOAA manipulated data ...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/5/...

Feb 05, 2017 · The climate change debate went nuclear Sunday over a whistleblower’s explosive allegation that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association manipulated data to advance a political agenda by hiding the global warming “pause.”.

Author: Valerie Richardson

..

World leaders duped by manipulated global warming data ...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...leaders-duped-

Feb 04, 2017 · Exposed: How world leaders were duped into investing billions over manipulated global warming data. The Mail on Sunday can reveal a landmark paper exaggerated global warming
.

Fed Whistleblower: NOAA Scientists Manipulated Temperature ...

https://www.climatedepot.com/2017/02...ts-manipulated...

NOAA Scientists Manipulated Temperature Data To Make Global Warming Seem Worse World Leaders Duped Over Manipulated Global Warming Data The Mail on Sunday today reveals astonishing evidence that the organisation that is the world’s leading source of climate data rushed to publish a landmark paper that exaggerated global warming and was timed to influence the historic Paris Agreement on climate change.
.

NASA Exposed in 'Massive' New Climate Data Fraud | PSI Intl

https://principia-scientific.org/nas...sed-in-massive

Nov 24, 2015 · Veteran award-winning journalist Günter Ederer reports of a shocking new global warming data fraud in NASA’s global temperature data series, as relied on by the UN and government climate scientists

NOAA Scientists Falsely Accused of Manipulating ... - Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/02/...te-change-data

Feb 08, 2017 · NOAA Scientists Falsely Accused of Manipulating Climate Change Data A tabloid used testimony from a single scientist to paint an excruciatingly technical matter as a …

Author: Alex Kasprak

That pretty much cuts both ways Vac since fossil fuel and energy corporations employ scientist that parrot position that justify and benefit them also. I agree with your assessment of data driven and tend to side with the idea that focus should be on what we as a nation should be doing. Not China, NOT India. Getting out of the Paris Agreement I think was a mistake that wiped out the opportunity to LEAD which is what we do supposedly according to the hype, but should that be a stumbling block for getting our own house together? Shame if it is.

I was so curios about the Mississippi gasification failure I looked it up. Rising costs and a crippling lawsuit by a competitor put the project in limbo. I'll provide this overview of the timeline of events leading to this failure for your consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacuum7

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...leaders-duped-

Feb 04, 2017 · Exposed: How world leaders were duped into investing billions over manipulated global warming data. The Mail on Sunday can reveal a landmark paper exaggerated global warming

NOAA Scientists Falsely Accused of Manipulating ... - Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/02/...te-change-data

Feb 08, 2017 · NOAA Scientists Falsely Accused of Manipulating Climate Change Data A tabloid used testimony from a single scientist to paint an excruciatingly technical matter as a …

Author: Alex Kasprak

Several of your links are duplicated, falsely showing a greater incidence of reporting than actual.

I note you included the debunking of the report by Snopes. Is that an error or are you trying to show both sides?

Here's a further link/report that debunks the story which originated in the UK's Daily Mall, a notorious publication prone to yellow journalism.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/02/no-data-manipulation-at-noaa/

After reading all the links, the Snopes and Factcheck reports are far more likely than the others.

Tal, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The lawsuit was a minor detail compared to the cost overruns which were enormous and reminds me of how the military does things. Cost estimates went from about 2.5 bil to over 7 bil at the end with still no start date in sight. Remember that conversation we had about watching costs?

They spent money for land like they had lots and lots of it. I sold about forty acres for probably three or four times what it was worth, and that price did not include the coal which they would have paid extra for once they mined it. It ended up being the biggest white elephant you can imagine. And now they own all those many square miles of land which they can grow trees on or whatever.

The final nail in the coffin was the drop in the price of natural gas which made the whole thing a losing proposition anyway.

Whoever was managing that project was not watching costs nor had any quality control, an indication of MAYBE cutting corners, and shoddy work as too many delays in repairs and adjustment contributed to those deadline missing penalties. It was a huge undertaking from the start as most successful gasification projects around the country are much smaller in scale.

From failure can come success. I see a massive reorganization here though if they get the management kinks resolved.

Athos, Talaniman, & jlisenbe: Yes, threw the competing/contrasting story in to give a balance: Need to be data driven and SOMEBODY needs to be the DATA CZAR to "police" the data and make sure everything is on the up and up...who that would be, I haven't a clue.....if you don't do this, you will always have an opening for some wiseass to perforate your findings: Human Beings are so predictable and self-destructive.

Its always a contest with US doing something "environmentally friendly" that might somewhat negatively affects our production outputs while we are competing with those who AREN'T participating in-kind: The fairness thing always rises to the top in these discussions......but, as you pointed out, we are supposed to be leaders...and that can be burdensome on many levels.

jlisenbe: 3 to 4 times the actual value for the land? You have a horseshoe up your butt! I would have done that jump with all four feet! I know people who got some of this goodie, too, out in La.

Natural Gas prices fluctuate wildly! Know a Paper Mill out West that goes up or down with the price of N.G.: MADDENING! I would hate to be tied to that roller coaster.

How dare she?

Thunberg has used the Australian bushfires to enhance her climate debate. No sensitivity at all to the hundreds of families who have lost their homes, the thousands of valiant volunteers who fight the fires, the millions affected by the pall of smoke and those unfortunates who have lost their lives. But then when someone is as emotionally closed off as she is, we cannot expect empathy just exploitation for political advantage. Am I mad, yes I am and not about climate change but about someone as far removed from our situation as you can get having anything to say about it. Go peddle your northern hemisphere crap somewhere else because we don't want to hear it

Your island is but ONE climate event of MANY across the globe Clete and the real question will be, and is, how WE prepare for the NEXT event we KNOW is coming no matter where you are. Doesn't matter what you call it, or any of that idealogical stuff, but we are well past the ignore and dismiss stage. As you yourself point out, it's happening NOW. LOL we really look stupid when we rather argue than PREPARE, but when their is no plan or preparation helpless is what we get.

Don't blame the messenger for stating the obvious.

This is one messenger that should be dealth with, a paddle to the backside would be appropriate. Anything she stated is not obvious, climate change did not cause the bush fires

Seems the climating is always changing though. Save your energy for surviving the change.

Tal, I'm too old to survive anything had a very savage reminder of that last night

Please feel free to share the experience Clete.

Well Tal difficult to know what caused it my big toe stood up at on odd angle very painfull some sort of spasm I guess. application of heat, strong pain killers and liberal doses of gout medication wasnt happy as I had a long drive ahead of me made longer because of road closures from the fires

Sorry about your discomfort Clete, just glad it sounds like you are moving to safety though, and more help!

Get well soon, Clete. That stuff is no fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Sorry about your discomfort Clete, just glad it sounds like you are moving to safety though, and more help!

not really tal but less smoke the highway down here intermittently closes so not sure when i can go back this situation is beyond a joke

sort of glad I came home earlier than intended, avoided the evacuation and the fires that have subsequently devastated my route but still have the smoke here and cannot image what it might be like there. My doctor tells me it is equivalent to smoking a pack a day even here

Surprised you didn't get your own oxygen mask while you were out.

The Lord has provided we have had RAIN!

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR032.loop.shtml#skip

Thank God for that. Happy for you guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Thank God for that. Happy for you guys.

Yes but it is short lived so we will see where we go from now. I was reviewing some statistics and while these fires are up there have been others even a massive 117 million hectares, so let's hope we don't get to that, in 1851 the fire season was as large so let us not hear about climate change

Just seen where 24 Australian citizens were arrested for STARTING FIRES! This mess is man inspired.

These 24 should receive some due punishment.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Just seen where 24 Australian citizens were arrested for STARTING FIRES! This mess is man inspired.

These 24 should receive some due punishment.

You can be assured they will, however we no longer lynch arsonists, pity, i would have thought a slow roasting was what they deserved

I second that emotion: These people are really, really sick!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacuum7

I second that emotion: These people are really, really sick!

Yes but they didn't start the many hundreds of other fires

Fires can spread grow, and start other fires quite well just on it's own. Just saw fire and wind create a firenado right before my eyes, as well as firestorms complete with thunder and lightning. Fascinating and dangerous.

Been there, dont want to go there

Me either, but that's not always our choice. Even if we could do a lot more we still face the possibility that it's not enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Me either, but that's not always our choice. Even if we could do a lot more we still face the possibility that it's not enough.

Tal, our puny efforts are never enough. we have this great hysteria about climate change and emissions and our efforts can never be enough because the goal posts keep moving. Once it was 25% abatement, now it is 100%, which means we move back to the stone age. You see this month many people in Australia found out what it is like to be without electricity, without telephones, without sufficient transport, with water supply at risk and what it taught us is we are not going to go quietly into the dark, we will use our full resources to preserve our civilisation. This means we will build more dams, cut back vegetation, reduce our specific risks whether the rest of the world, or even our indigenous peoples, think it is a good idea or not.

Paraclete: If you are going to have to go back to the mid-1800's, you need your firearms back, too! YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT IS REQUIRED THAT YOU DO! The WORLD doesn't live in AUSTRALIA, YOU DO!

A man without a gun is a victim.....eventually!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Paraclete: If you are going to have to go back to the mid-1800's, you need your firearms back, too! YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT IS REQUIRED THAT YOU DO! The WORLD doesn't live in AUSTRALIA, YOU DO!

A man without a gun is a victim.....eventually!

Vac, even in the 1800's we didn't need every man with a gun to control this country, this isn't america and a different ethos operates here. So you can take your guns and shove them where it hurts the most. No gun ever prevents nor fights a fire

Now Clete, we all know that when this is finally over things go back to business as usual. No lessons learned and it may takea few more disasters to get people thinking and acting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

Now Clete, we all know that when this is finally over things go back to business as usual. No lessons learned and it may takea few more disasters to get people thinking and acting.

I'm not as cynical as you are Tal, already the move is to consensus to solve our problems, you see our ethos is rooted in concensus, not the division that the left injects into society. There is no class struggle here, our billionairres have stepped up and I expect more to come. We are not the capitalist society you are, business only thinks it rules here. It is interesting to note that our economy was flagging but now we will have a fire led recovery, I expect a time of growth, and at the end of it, our approaches will be different

Just read that the Australian fires killed well over a billion animals: I expect that the Dingos weren't among those numbers and their population will probably benefit from the fires in a weird "Unnatural" balance.

What comes after fire season Clete? No doubt the bulldozers and planes and helicopters get parked, and volunteers go home and everybody breathes a sigh of relief and get distracted by reality and the next big season. Is that cynical or just reality?

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

What comes after fire season Clete? No doubt the bulldozers and planes and helicopters get parked, and volunteers go home and everybody breathes a sigh of relief and get distracted by reality and the next big season. Is that cynical or just reality?

Totally cynical, the bulldozers will go back to building roads and dams, and volunteers will go home if they still have one. The reality is we will have an enquiry to find how we might have done better. This has devasted a large area and destroyed not only property but livelihoods. Regions which rely on tourism will have a season of little income. What might have been a bumper season will bring the reality of bankruptcy and PTSD

Thunberg is back sticking knives in Donald's back

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...davos/11888208

her brilliant response to climate policy, planting trees is not enough. problem is; people like her don't think any effort is enough, but if we plant trees and stop cutting down the ones we have, there will be abatement. What we don't want is complete shutdown of electricity generation. instead of saying something positive, what she contributed is negativity

In the United States, which contains 8 percent of the world's forests, there are more trees than there were 100 years ago