Ask Me Help Desk - An idiot at work?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Saying that women are not to exercise authority over men is a million miles from saying that all women are subject to all men.

I didn't say that - I merely stated what your reference said.

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Saying that the husband is to love his wife is NOT the same thing as saying he should love ALL wives. Saying that women cannot exercise authority over men in the church is NOT the same thing as saying that all men have authority over all women.

The quote is not about love but refers to authority. It contains no modifiers. If you wish to make it mean something other than what the words mean, that's fine with me.

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I assure you the Bible can respond. Try reading it. It defends and explains itself quite well.

You are referring to INTERPRETING the Bible, not the ability of the Bible to respond - unless you have a talking Bible. You continue to have difficulty with words and their meaning.

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I merely stated what your reference said.

No, you did not. You stated your own silly opinion that the text gave all men authority over all women. Any competent second grader could read the passage and tell it did not, in any form, say that.

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The quote is not about love but refers to authority. It contains no modifiers. If you wish to make it mean something other than what the words mean, that's fine with me.

Like I said, sometimes you have to think a little. It was stated as an illustration.

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You are referring to INTERPRETING the Bible, not the ability of the Bible to respond - unless you have a talking Bible. You continue to have difficulty with words and their meaning.

The Bible does speak, but only to those willing to listen. It might be that you are not included in that group.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

[Athos said] the text gave all men authority over all women. Any competent second grader could read the passage and tell it did not, in any form, say that.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's very simple. I just go with what the text says. Women are not to teach or exercise authority over men. It does not say that women, as a group, are subjugated to men.

What???? This must be why there are legions of Christian denominations.

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Why do you believe that love and selflessness are good?

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Man has free will. He can choose to be loving and unselfish. He doesn't need religion and a moral code for that.

I think that is the point. If there is a God (or even gods/creators), would they not imbue or at least have impacted us with some essence of themselves (moral code)?

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Where there is no honor of God, a society will fail to respect His creation, and people will suffer as a result.

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What does that have to do with a draft dodging morally befreft individual sending my kids to die in a war that brings him personal gain?

Let me think about that one.

@ATHOS

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The hate is all yours. You are projecting, my friend.

We are often influenced by our Love, or our Hatred, before we are aware of it our selves.

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a. 1 Tim. 2:12. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

Does than mean I shouldn't listen to a woman who teaches? I consider it something between God and women. Just the same as Tithing. God says we must pay tithes...has nothing to do with me if you Don't tithe.

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Does than mean I shouldn't listen to a woman who teaches?

I think it means exactly what it says, that Paul did not allow women to teach or exercise authority over men, probably meaning that he did not allow women to be what we would refer to as lead or senior pastors. Now did Peter or John allow this? That is possible, but it is not addressed anywhere in the NT that I know of. I do not want to be the one arguing with Paul on this issue, but others no doubt do not feel the same way.

But very plainly it does not state that all men have authority over all women, and to say that it implies that is, I would think, an enormous stretch.

What does any of that have to do with the dufus selling nukes to the Saudis over the objection of the congress? Opinions and debate is great but pales in real applications. Do you think the dufus listens to the bible? I give you this JL, you have turned the other cheek to a lies of the dufus and his antics, because he delivered to you two of three things you deem important?

Current conditions and events warrant a more practical approach than the writings of ancients which may, or may not be the word of god, when it comes to picking our leaders. Sorry I cannot take their word for it that half of humanities voices should be discounted, and contributions forbidden.

That's crazy and one would hope we have evolved past this man domination stuff, but I guess we have not...some of us any way.

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1 Tim. 2:12. I do not permit a woman to teach

Some understand it to mean; I will not listen to a woman while she is speaking behind the pulpit.

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I give you this JL, you have turned the other cheek to a lies of the dufus and his antics, because he delivered to you two of three things you deem important?

What caused you to turn the cheek to the lies of Mr. Obama? What did he deliver for you?

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Current conditions and events warrant a more practical approach than the writings of ancients which may, or may not be the word of god, when it comes to picking our leaders.

Such as?

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Sorry I cannot take their word for it that half of humanities voices should be discounted, and contributions forbidden.

What are you talking about?

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Some understand it to mean; I will not listen to a woman while she is speaking behind the pulpit.

And they are entitled to that understanding, but it would not be proper at all to say that the text says that because it does not.

Tal: Sorry I cannot take their word for it that half of humanities voices should be discounted, and contributions forbidden.

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JL :What are you talking about?

"Half of humanities voices ... and contributions" = women's voices and contributions

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"Half of humanities voices ... and contributions" = women's voices and contributions

Got it. Just call me dense. However, I think the world's women would be amazed to find out that they are not able to raise their voice or contribute to humanity without being a senior pastor or exclusively hold a position of authority over men in the church. I think they would say that is decidedly not true.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I think the world's women would be amazed to find out that they are not able to raise their voice or contribute to humanity without being a senior pastor or exclusively hold a position of authority over men in the church. I think they would say that is decidedly not true.

Please rewrite this as several simple sentences without the negatives. I have no idea what you're saying.

However, I think the world's women would be amazed to find out that they must be a senior pastor or be able to exercise authority over men in order to raise their voice or contribute to humanity. I think they believe otherwise and have, in fact, done otherwise.

Better??

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

However, I think the world's women would be amazed to find out that they must be a senior pastor or be able to exercise authority over men in order to raise their voice or contribute to humanity. I think they believe otherwise and have, in fact, done otherwise.

Better??

Nope. Maybe Athos or Tal can figure it out. All I'm reading is that we women must be a senior pastor if we want to have authority over men or contribute to society.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I think it means exactly what it says, that Paul did not allow women to teach or exercise authority over men, probably meaning that he did not allow women to be what we would refer to as lead or senior pastors

In one sentence you have contradicted yourself. Does it mean EXACTLY what it says or does it mean what you PROBABLY claim it means? It can't be both exactly AND not exactly (probably).

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I do not want to be the one arguing with Paul on this issue

Ergo, you agree with Paul. The more you write, the more you reveal yourself in little ways.

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But very plainly it does not state that all men have authority over all women, and to say that it implies that is, I would think, an enormous stretch.

Those are your words.

argument for the sake of argument

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Originally Posted by paraclete

argument for the sake of argument

No. I don't understand what he said -- and meant. Do you?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No. I don't understand what he said -- and meant. Do you?

Yes he is saying women can contribute without being in senior positions, and do. Women have influence however you find that their perspective is oriented to women and may not cover the entire spectrum. I find when women preach they go into too much detail, too much justification of their position. We have a debate about insufficient women in senior positions as if they are entitled to a quota of 50%, but the reality is they don't offer themselves and many who do, don't have the ability, so when you have a quota, you get incompetence. This is not to say there are not incompetent men, however, they tend to be weeded out earlier.

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Yes he is saying women can contribute without being in senior positions, and do

Very nice summation. I would only add that the Timothy passage refers to the church and not to the world in general. Merit should be the determining factor.

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In one sentence you have contradicted yourself. Does it mean EXACTLY what it says or does it mean what you PROBABLY claim it means? It can't be both exactly AND not exactly (probably).

In most Bible passages you find the explicit meaning, and then you determine an application. That is what I have done, and that is why I used the word "probably" to indicate that it is my opinion and not the explicit reading of the text. There is no contradiction.

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Ergo, you agree with Paul. The more you write, the more you reveal yourself in little ways.

It's beyond even that. I agree with the text of the Bible and regard it as God's word, so it is not my place, or this culture's place, to judge it. The day will come when we will be judged by its content. The more you write, the more you reveal you do not have a high regard for the Bible.

Who cares who controls the pulpit of your church, but I would rather focus on who's the best qualified for public office and can deliver on the basics of good governance. Gender makes no difference. The dufus in the WH has made the case that conservatives have lost their freaking minds.

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conservatives have lost their freaking minds.

Yep. Record low unemployment is a sure sign of insanity. Trump managed to do in about eighteen months what Obama could not do in 96 months. We could use some more of that craziness.

The sad part of this deal is that the dems in congress are so intent on trying to impeach Trump for anything they can make up, they are not dealing with serious issues. Social Security will be in the red within ten or fifteen years. Not talked about. We continue to run ridiculous deficits. Don't hear about it. Medical costs continue to skyrocket. Not talked about. I found a receipt yesterday where my grandmother spent five days in the hospital in 1949. Cost? 89 dollars TOTAL. Now it would be a thousand times that. These are the things we should be addressing. Instead, we talk about supposed collusion with the Russkies. Pitiful, and it is not much better for the repubs who still control the senate but propose and do next to nothing.

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focus on who's the best qualified for public office and can deliver on the basics of good governance.

I would agree completely with that.

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JL to Athos: The more you write, the more you reveal you do not have a high regard for the Bible.

...which really means, "The more you write, the more you reveal you do not have a high regard for my interpretation of the Bible."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yep. Record low unemployment is a sure sign of insanity. Trump managed to do in about eighteen months what Obama could not do in 96 months. We could use some more of that craziness.

The sad part of this deal is that the dems in congress are so intent on trying to impeach Trump for anything they can make up, they are not dealing with serious issues. Social Security will be in the red within ten or fifteen years. Not talked about. We continue to run ridiculous deficits. Don't hear about it. Medical costs continue to skyrocket. Not talked about. I found a receipt yesterday where my grandmother spent five days in the hospital in 1949. Cost? 89 dollars TOTAL. Now it would be a thousand times that. These are the things we should be addressing. Instead, we talk about supposed collusion with the Russkies. Pitiful, and it is not much better for the repubs who still control the senate but propose and do next to nothing.

I would agree completely with that.

Clearly you delude yourself as FACT is the good economy is a product of years of good economic policy despite your own fiction that it was no big deal when the banks destroyed our finances and we were bleeding jobs everywhere. You also delude yourself with your denial of another FACT that despite your blasting dems for investigating the lies of the dufus, you neglect repubs failing to address those very issues of which you speak, and they have had the power to do so since 2011. Yeah you talk a lot of my name calling, but have enough of your own to account for, but of course you are unable to admit your part in the failures of your party to make sound policy either.

So thanks for proving my point that righties have lost their freaking mind, and sunk to the most insane and crazy talking points I have ever heard. Sad that you believe it, sadder that you think everyone else should too! Feel free to keep talking and making my point for me.

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the good economy is a product of years of good economic policy

Sure is funny how the economy did not take off and grow effectively until Obama left office. What a strange coincidence. Stop drinking the kool aid.

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repubs failing to address those very issues of which you speak, and they have had the power to do so since 2011

Remember when the republicans tried to take a stand in 2013 and we ended up with no budget and much of the fed government shut down? Remember how Obama and his friends, the national media, placed all the blame on the republicans? Remember any of that? Remember how your hero, Obama, nearly doubled the national debt in only eight years?

But I will still largely agree with you. The repubs should have declared a road to a balanced budget and put their rear ends on the line in the pursuit of it. They were too fearful to do it, just like the dems are now.

Are you crazy? Repubs still hold all the power to pass stuff and are stalling the dems passing solutions on the very issues of which you still speak. The only claim to fame repubs had after 2011 was repeal and replace of which they failed to repeal, and we never got the replace so nice try at spin the failures of repubs.

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Sure is funny how the economy did not take off and grow effectively until Obama left office. What a strange coincidence. Stop drinking the kool aid.

Obviously whatever you are drinking has you loopy. Sure repubs juiced the game making it look like the economy took off after the dufus got here with those rich guy tax cuts, but main street still struggles, and all of us are paying for this trade war with everybody.

Be glad when you sober up from your dufus election party.

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Repubs still hold all the power to pass stuff

I'm sane enough to know that the dems have control of the House and the House is the first source for all revenue bills. You didn't know that?

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but main street still struggles, and all of us are paying for this trade war with everybody.

Absolute lunacy. Average wages, which barely grew at all with Obama, are up substantially. You need to become better informed.

Wrong on both counts since you had house and senate for nearly 8 years and did nothing with it while the loss of the house in 2018 gave it to dems for the last few months and many bills have been passed only to die in Slick mitch's senate. One of the consequences of the house changing hands was the states raising the mimimum wage while the private sector is lagging behind both rising prices and those darn taxes. So don't try to spin iy like you and the dufus have something to crow about, you don't and what little has been done is despite the dufus not because of him.

My advice is to save the temprary tax break you may be enjoying because repubs always screw the money up and the dems always clean up your mess after exposing your lies and exaggerations about how great you are and how much you have done for everybody. I've laid out the evidence of my case since you got here and before so try that with an uninformed sheeple because homey don't play your game.

Neither of us is completely right or wrong in truth so get with the program, and get off that right wing loony noise machine.

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Neither of us is completely right or wrong in truth so get with the program, and get off that right wing loony noise machine.

I would say you best get on "that right wing loony noise machine". If you can't beat 'Em, join 'Em!
Hard Left went off the rails. You are now taking a Hard Right...Wild ride indeed.

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The dufus in the WH has made the case that conservatives have lost their freaking minds.

Obama and Hillary have been trying to point out that fact before he even entered the WH...Lookie over there!
Stop looking back.

America was tired of a defunct Obama/Hillary administration. Youz people should get over it.
With Israel for us who can stand against us ;-)

Show me the bills the House has passed to balance the budget and we'll have something to talk about. Until then, you're just spouting left wing noise.

OMG, the budget hasn't been balanced but once in history, and you expect the dems to do it after a few months? Why didn't your repubs balance the darn thing in their years of full control, or did they even try? Then you could gloat, and I would have to just shut up. Fat chance of that. You don't get to call foul after failing yourself. A right wing tactic you loonies just love to pull.

I tell YOU what, show me the bills that repubs passed to balance the budget under Bush, Obama, or Dufus. Then we can talk.

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OMG, the budget hasn't been balanced but once in history, and you expect the dems to do it after a few months? Why didn't your repubs balance the darn thing in their years of full control, or did they even try?

The last time it was balanced, I think 98 and 99, we had a republican congress and a dem pres who worked together to get the job done. What a novel idea!!

We agree there. Wonder if we agree on why they don't work together now?

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We agree there.

NO! I won't allow it. I like it better when the two of you argue...Now Argue Damn you!
Obama and Hillary had it all figured out. Why did Trump have to get involved and mess everything up...WHY, WHY, WHYYYY!
Don't forget that Trump is a lying, Backstabbing Dufus while Obama and his side kick were Hornswoggled out of office. It's not fair just not fair.

Patience Hoppergrass, it's early yet. Go get a dog off the grill.

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Patience Hoppergrass, it's early yet. Go get a dog off the grill.

That one made me laugh!

They don't cooperate because politics has become so toxic and the two sides are so completely apart on policy.

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Originally Posted by waltero

NO! I won't allow it. I like it better when the two of you argue...Now Argue Damn you!
Obama and Hillary had it all figured out. Why did Trump have to get involved and mess everything up...WHY, WHY, WHYYYY!
Don't forget that Trump is a lying, Backstabbing Dufus while Obama and his side kick were Hornswoggled out of office. It's not fair just not fair.

Politics is not fair, that there should be people who dare to disagree with socialism is just incredible, don't those idiots know we just want to make things better for them, help them to have health care they can pay for, help them to be relieved of the burden of spending their money on essentials

Stick the socialism label on anything and make it a bad thing. Ain't mass manipulation grand?

Yeah. I mean, see how well it worked in Venezuela.

mass manipulation, you mean when the system doesn't work the way you want it to?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yeah. I mean, see how well it worked in Venezuela.

What do you expect from self serving incompetence. Has nothing to do with the label you put on it. Dysfunctional is dysfunctional.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

mass manipulation, you mean when the system doesn't work the way you want it to?

No, when the system is rigged no matter who runs it. Top down is not efficient nor effective when the top skims the cream off and leaves nothing.

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What do you expect from self serving incompetence.

Self serving competence produces capitalism. Self serving incompetence produces a welfare state, socialism, and excuse-making.

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Top down is not efficient nor effective when the top skims the cream off and leaves nothing.

You've got to drop drinking the kool aid. The top 5% of income earners in the U.S. earn 34% of the income but pay almost 60% of fed income tax. You better be glad for those people or your share (and mine) would be much higher.

Might add that amongst the world's nations, the U.S. currently ranks fourth in average wages, behind only the very small nations of Luxembourg, Sweden, and Iceland. We are far ahead of Germany, U.K., France, Japan, and even Norway and Finland, and those countries pay a much higher percentage of their income into taxes than we do. Yes, we are even far ahead of the Aussies. So we should probably stop our whining and thank God every day that we have the prosperity we have. Possibly our biggest problem is we do not appreciate what we have.