Nope. I HAVE read other works by Josh and several others who think like he does. If you ask me nice, I'll d/l it into my Kindle and do an honest and open-minded reading of it, then report back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
|
Nope. I HAVE read other works by Josh and several others who think like he does. If you ask me nice, I'll d/l it into my Kindle and do an honest and open-minded reading of it, then report back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I tend to discount and ignore reviews, good or bad, but wonder why supporters cannot articulate themselves after having read the works, and raving about it. Care to share?
Don't mind doing your homework I see. I started with His YouTube videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I think the resurrection of Christ is a good place to start. The best evidence of that event to me is the fact that all the authorities had to do was produce the dead body to refute the claim of resurrection. They couldn't do that. I could add that, if Jesus was just being deceptive, He would have never told them he would physically rise from the dead. He would have simply said He would spiritually rise, which would have been practically impossible to refute. And there is the fact that the witnesses of the resurrection so firmly believed they saw and interacted with Him that they led lives of deprivation and, eventually, were executed for their belief. Even at that, the message they preached changed the world. And then there is the case of Saul of Tarsus, whose life was changed as radically as any man who ever lived because he met the risen Lord.Quote:
I tend to discount and ignore reviews, good or bad, but wonder why supporters cannot articulate themselves after having read the works, and raving about it. Care to share?
Great idea, will do that!Quote:
Don't mind doing your homework I see. I started with His YouTube videos.
I must be honest that in my own studies over the years I have run into many scholars making very good arguments and presenting them as facts. Ones faith is not always about forensic evidence that can be demonstrated or proven. I surely have no proof of my own, so I offer none. I'm no boy scout, and have enough flaws to fill a rather thick book, so I have no intention of blasting the faith of good people, or dismissing it if it works well for you. We can discuss but don't take it personally.
I find very little references to the guards in the bible, but know of people having life changing spiritual experiences, or awakenings. That alone is enough for me to be aware of things that are greater than I am. Obviously I am no prolific scholar.
Really, facts are facts, some would say irrefutable, but there are always detractors who want to take a different path and follow their own desiresQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Who was it who once said, "Facts are troublesome things."
I was always taught that belief in the teachings of the Bible is a matter of faith, not because they're irrefutable facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If they are not irrefutable facts, then why on earth would anyone want to believe them? It is like saying that 2 + 2 = 4 most of the time, but not all of the time. When you come from that point of view, and many do, it just seems to rob the Bible of any authority. Wouldn't it set me up as judge of the Bible rather than the Bible being the governing authority in my life? Jesus rose from the dead only if I believe He did, which is just another version of, "Who knows?"
I used to have a point of view similar to that until I discovered the amazing historical accuracy of the Biblical documents. It's not blind faith to believe the teachings of scripture.
I don't question your FAITH JL, nor the historic value of your bible as a whole, but I can refute what scholars present as irrefutable facts. How you treat them is of course your right.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Arguing over "irrefutable facts" is the main reason there are so many denominations.Quote:
If they are not irrefutable facts, then why on earth would anyone want to believe them?
Great point!Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergirl
OK. Let's hear you refute one.Quote:
I can refute what scholars present as irrefutable facts. How you treat them is of course your right.
Quote:
Arguing over "irrefutable facts" is the main reason there are so many denominations.
Actually, it's more the details that people divide over. The core teaching of the Bible is generally not in dispute unless you get into liberal churches who do not believe in the inspiration of scripture and are convinced the Bible is full of non-facts. So we end up with silly disputes, for instance, about the true nature of marriage.
So you would be just as happy as a Methodist or a Lutheran or an Mormon or a Catholic? Their "divisive details" don't matter to you since they all have the same core teaching about salvation?Quote:
Actually, it's more the details that people divide over. The core teaching of the Bible is generally not in dispute
They all have the same core teaching about salvation?? Hardly. Mormons do not claim to adhere to the Bible at all and do not believe in salvation that belongs to all who genuinely have faith in Jesus, so that's a false comparison. Catholic doctrine only exists because they put the claims of the Popes alongside the claims of the Bible, and they also do not believe that faith alone in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation, so that's another false comparison. As to Methodists, they have largely abandoned the Bible as being the sole source of doctrine and have consequently drifted into error. Not real familiar with Lutherans, but it's hard to argue with a group who, I suppose, claim to follow the lead of Martin Luther!
I would love to hear your understanding of the "core teaching about salvation". What is your belief in that matter?
They are all listed as Christian.Quote:
They all have the same core teaching about salvation?? Hardly.
Mormon, e.g.: "He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross under an immeasurable weight to ransom us from our mortal burdens. After three days Jesus Christ overcame death, emerging from the tomb resurrected and winning for us that same reward; He made possible our own resurrection, the permanent union of our spirit and perfected physical body. Jesus was sent by His Father to offer eternal life to all of His children; His sacrifice empowers the plan of salvation."
https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/jesus-christ
No, they don't. And you belong to which group?Quote:
Not real familiar with Lutherans, but it's hard to argue with a group who, I suppose, claim to follow the lead of Martin Luther!
I was quoting you. And I've told you my belief.Quote:
I would love to hear your understanding of the "core teaching about salvation". What is your belief in that matter?
You quoted me about the core of salvation? I must have missed it.
As to Mormon doctrine, you disappoint me. They are very plain about this. "salvation from sin, or spiritual death, is conditional. Entrance to the highest Heavenly Kingdom, the "Celestial Kingdom" (See 1 Corinthians 15:40), is only granted to those who accept Jesus through baptism into the Church by its priesthood authority, follow Church doctrine, and live righteous lives. Faith alone, or faith without works, (i.e. dead faith), is not considered sufficient to attain exaltation. (See James 2:26.)"
By "church", they of course mean the Mormon church.
I used your terminology, "core teaching about salvation."Quote:
You quoted me about the core of salvation? I must have missed it.
I used to live near Palmyra, NY, the place where the LDS church began. I've been to their visitor center, have walked through the sacred grove, have climbed the Hill Cumorah (but didn't catch site of the angel Moroni). I posted their belief about salvation from their site.
Jesus wept
At what?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."Quote:
I posted their belief about salvation from their site.
They are very heavily works oriented. This is what they actually post as their "plan of salvation". It's impossible to find in the Bible.
"We lived with Heavenly Father before this life as His spirit children, and we came to earth to gain a body and to learn and grow and eventually return to Him.
Long before the Creation of this earth, our Heavenly Father provided a plan that made it possible for us, His children, to become like Him. This plan is called the plan of salvation. Understanding this plan gives us greater purpose in life.
Before this mortal life we lived with God as His spirit children, without physical bodies. We chose the Father’s plan, which included the Creation of this earth and provided us the opportunity to come here to gain a body, make choices, develop faith, and accept responsibility for our actions. This allows us to progress beyond what was possible in the spirit world when we lived with God.
Sin and death are also part of mortality. The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to provide a way to overcome sin and death. This He did through an act called the Atonement. Through Christ’s atoning sacrifice we can repent of our sins and someday live with God and with our families forever.
https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/plan-of-salvation
What kind of Christian are you that has the real Christianity?
40“I tell you,” He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.” 41As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes.…Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The attitudes of the people, the inability to see the truth
If they believe this, the Gospel, the peripheral stuff doesn't matter, does it? If it does, why?Quote:
Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."
But the word doesn't say that, that statement is full of peripheral stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This is full of peripheral stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
"...we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."
We do not have a works based gospel. That is where they stray afar from the genuine gospel. It is not peripheral, it is CORE. It is the entire point of the first 8 chapters of Romans and is repeated throughout the NT.Quote:
remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Btw, Eph. 2:8,9 are the verses recited by Luther as he rebelled against buying indulgences and then posted his 95 Theses.
Being obedient to God is certainly important, but works are not a part of our salvation, they are the fruit of it. We all want our children to do chores around the house, but they do not become our children by doing them. Rather, they do them because they are our children. The order in which things happen is important.Quote:
So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?
I think you're just being argumentative. You know these things.
As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener. Romans 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed-a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Nope, never connected Luther with the Romans verse. It has always been the Ephesians verse. (Psssst, I was born on Luther's birthday, but in a different year. :D)Quote:
As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener.
Oh, and Eph. 2:10 says, For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
How it's said is not as important as how it's understood, and yes that is important.Quote:
So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.
Created FOR good works, but not saved BY good works. The difference is enormous. A sinful man can never work his way into God's favor any more than a murderer can work his way into a judge's favor.
Ah religious debates how they rage
So the dufus and his sycophants are likely going to hell right?
So are you if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
Yup. That was Luther's main thesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.
And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!
What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.
So says you. I haven't said that. I did paste a scripture from the Bible you say you believe. What part of it do you disagree with?Quote:
So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
And we should believe that because, after all, you believe it. Thus saith Athos.Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.
And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!
What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.
I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.Quote:
[and all] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
OK. Sounds like you are a believer in universal salvation, which of course would have to include Stalin, Hitler, and even Donald Trump(sorry, Tal). But if universal redemption is what is meant, then what does this mean?Quote:
I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:31 AM. |