I'm willing to bet location or relocation has a great deal to do with those unfilled jobs you speak of, as much as skills and motivation. Especially for older dogs with somewhat deeper roots, as well as those looking for more than just a job. Transitioning from on job/location to another is also expensive. But the ghost towns in the Midwest proves people are moving to take those jobs. Then we have those tariffs by the Dufus, which helps one industry, yet devastates another. That's a clumsy way to create a fair market.

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I'm willing to bet location or relocation has a great deal to do with those unfilled jobs you speak of

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So why wouldn't they move? Is it just so much easier to put them on welfare? I wonder what the hundreds of thousands who moved west in covered wagons at great risk would think of our country now. Good grief.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So why wouldn't they move? Is it just so much easier to put them on welfare? I wonder what the hundreds of thousands who moved west in covered wagons at great risk would think of our country now. Good grief.

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That's rather cynical, and snarky, and not very practical today to just venture to the unknown, and live off the land and campout until you get a job, but here's what I mean as far as MODERN challenges,

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/three-m...hos-qualified/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...n_1007902.html

These are old articles to highlight that companies have known of the skills gap a long time now, a decade almost so what have they done about it. NOTHING though that's been changing SLOWLY. Seems like those high paid CEO's would have it figured out by now.

http://www.themanufacturinginstitute...067A704CD.ashx

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not very practical today to just venture to the unknown, and live off the land and campout until you get a job

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Like I said. Don't expect people to take care of themselves. Just put them on welfare. We have become a nation of pygmies. Low expectations and therefore low results.

And you still haven't answered the question.

It's not my problem whether you accept my answer as adequate or not. I have presented my case and it is what it is. I think the real issue is not conflating welfare with a minimum wage as they are two different things. I understand your peeve with welfare, but also think a MW from decades ago feeds the need for more welfare, and raising it gets people off it, or at least not so dependent.

Now how businesses react to this change is key, as they are keen to pass costs on to consumers anyway. Anyone making $7 bucks an hour has to be on welfare. No choice.

My question is why do YOU think that it's okay to subsidize the wages of people working for companies that make billions, or millions, that already get tax breaks and deductions to help their profits?

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My question is why do YOU think that it's okay to subsidize the wages of people working for companies that make billions, or millions, that already get tax breaks and deductions to help their profits?

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Ah! A question. Here is how questions are to be answered.

1. Allowing people to keep their own money hardly qualifies as a subsidy. That is not what "subsidy" means.
2. The top 5% of wager earners already pay about 60% of federal income taxes. The bottom 50% of wage earners essentially pay nothing. Only in the mind of a liberal does that qualify as a subsidy to the wealthy.
3. So you cannot say I am OK with a subsidy that, in fact, only exists in the fantasies of liberal politicians.

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It's not my problem whether you accept my answer as adequate or not.

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Nope. You can't get off with that garbage. I could not accept your answer because you didn't bother to say why we wouldn't raise the minimum wage to 30 an hour if, as you said, 15 was such a great idea. You never bothered to give an answer that I, or anyone else, could have considered.

Now I'll answer the question I asked you, since you seem unwilling to do so. We don't propose a 30 dollar minimum wage for the simple reason that it would be a bad idea, much like 15 dollars is a bad idea. Increasing the minimum wage does not increase the supply of money. It will not increase tax revenues. It will increase prices and cause a number of people to lose their jobs simply because some employers will be unable, or unwilling, to nearly double wages.

But I can see something in your idea of a 15 dollar minimum wage being tied to ending welfare payments. If there could be some exceptions made, such as teenagers wanting a summer or part-time job, or young adults trying to get started in the job market but not having job skills worth 15 dollars an hour, then it would be worth talking about. So question: What do you think about that proposal?

You make proposals, then you should defend them. You seem unwilling to do that when the going gets tough. That's unfortunate.

Had I known of your inability to grasp simple macro economics I would not have answered you at all. So, sorry about that. Let me try this, the chances of a raise in the federal minimum wage is almost nil but states are doing it despite that.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Any questions just ask.

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Had I known of your inability to grasp simple macro economics I would not have answered you at all. So, sorry about that. Let me try this, the chances of a raise in the federal minimum wage is almost nil but states are doing it despite that.

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You basically did not answer at all. I have found that when people run out of ideas, then they become offensive, start throwing around terms like "macroeconomics" (which is one word, not two), and put links to websites in an attempt to look like they have answers. You had a chance to answer a simple question. You passed on it, which makes it appear you have no answer. Oh well. Not trying to be offensive to you. I love to discuss these things, but I don't want to just argue. It's useless.

You love to argue, you are not interested in welfare, minimum wage or anything else. I know Tal has a voice for the leftist view even if the solutions offered aren't sound, but you look for the put down rather than the answer. You say you can't get answers, but you don't accept the views offered. Maybe Tal doesn't have the answer to all problems, but the answer is actually found in consensus. You think macro economics is a term people throw around. It refers to the big picture, something you don't see. Minimum wage is a mechanism which prevents labour exploitation to some extent and should be embraced by a fair society

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but I am trying to get people to think about what they say. That's why I like to ask questions, to get people to think. For instance, a fifteen dollar minimum wage would indeed help some people, but would hurt many others since it would mean their jobs would cease to exist. That might not bother you, but it bothers me. Tal stated a position, and I questioned him about it. It's simply an honest exchange of ideas. I would encourage people to thoughtfully make their arguments for their ideas without getting mad about it. You will have to decide if you like that level of honesty. This stuff does not generally make me angry, but it does make me think, and I like that. I learn a lot from these discussions, and I enjoy seeing other points of view, including yours, even if I don't agree with them. Now does it aggravate me when someone will not answer a simple question? Yeah, I guess it does, so that's on me. I try to do things in a way that reflects well on Christ, but I do fall short more than I care to admit. But I actually hate arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's pointless.

I might add that anytime Tal thinks I'm getting too pushy, if he will say so, then I'll dial it back, or just abandon this thread. I'm not out to cause problems. He handles himself quite well, so I have stayed in this, but it's not a big deal. We know each other from the plumbing arena. He knows I respect him.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but I am trying to get people to think about what they say. That's why I like to ask questions, to get people to think. For instance, a fifteen dollar minimum wage would indeed help some people, but would hurt many others since it would mean their jobs would cease to exist. That might not bother you, but it bothers me. Tal stated a position, and I questioned him about it. It's simply an honest exchange of ideas. I would encourage people to thoughtfully make their arguments for their ideas without getting mad about it. You will have to decide if you like that level of honesty. This stuff does not generally make me angry, but it does make me think, and I like that. I learn a lot from these discussions, and I enjoy seeing other points of view, including yours, even if I don't agree with them. Now does it aggravate me when someone will not answer a simple question? Yeah, I guess it does, so that's on me. I try to do things in a way that reflects well on Christ, but I do fall short more than I care to admit. But I actually hate arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's pointless.

I might add that anytime Tal thinks I'm getting too pushy, if he will say so, then I'll dial it back, or just abandon this thread. I'm not out to cause problems. He handles himself quite well, so I have stayed in this, but it's not a big deal. We know each other from the plumbing arena. He knows I respect him.

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Where do you get these ideas from. If an employer can't pay $15 an hour they should get off their backside and do the work themselves. Anything less is exploitation and what I don't get is you defend that.

I'm generally conservative but I know what it is like to be underpaid so there should be realistic minimums and there should be help for those who need it as long as they can't exploit it

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Where do you get these ideas from. If an employer can't pay $15 an hour they should get off their backside and do the work themselves. Anything less is exploitation and what I don't get is you defend that.

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I get these ideas by listening a lot to debates about minimum wages. If, for instance, a fast food restaurant has to double its wages to get to 15, then it will have to raise prices considerably. Many people will choose not to buy food there because of the higher prices. Less business equals fewer employees. Some of the restaurants will go out of business due to a lack of profit. This is not my idea. It is a proven occurrence. Raising the MW decreases available low-skill, entry level jobs. Just so you'll know I'm not making this up, https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...rticle/2549492.

But I'll ask you the same question I asked Tal and he did not answer. If raising the minimum wage to 15 is a great idea, then why stop there? Why not 18, or 25, or even 30 dollars an hour? Why did you pick 15? You say anything less than that is exploitation. Based on what data?

I'm convinced the answer to the minimum wage question is simple. As people get more experience, they become a more valuable employee and begin to move up the wage ladder. That's why only about 5% of hourly employees in the U.S. make minimum wage, and many of them are restaurant servers that make tips which, when added to their wage, would move them above minimum wage. Also, most people do not make minimum wage for more than a few years, at which point their skill level justifies a higher wage. But raising the MW will keep teens from getting summer jobs, and prevent unskilled adults from getting a first, full-time job. You will be hurting the very people you are trying to help.

I would think a logical compromise would be to grant a separate minimum wage ($6.00??) to teens looking for summer jobs, or for unskilled adults looking for a first job. Then the current minimum wage of 7.65 could go to 9 or 10, or whatever would seem right.

There is another side to this. If I am an unskilled, high school dropout, and I'm looking for a job, I might be quite willing to work for, let's say, 8 dollars an hour. But you and Tal have mandated that I not have the liberty to do that. The employer tells me that my lack of skills keeps me out of a 15 dollar an hour job. So even though I am willing to exercise my freedom to work for 8, you refuse to let me do so, and so I end up with no job. I might be convinced that working two jobs for 8 is what is best for me at this point in my life, and as I gain experience and skill, then I'll make more in the future. You rob that person of that option. It is misplaced philanthropy.

So I read you are in favour of exploitation to produce profit, these guys could do with fewer staff and not be quite so fast. Do you hear yourself, a $15, an hour job is a skilled job! Where do you live, Russia, China? I say we get rid of the inefficiencies and the job will be more valuable. It is not hurting people to pay them more and stop exploiting them. You still have a slave economy mentality

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So I read you are in favour of exploitation to produce profit

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You still have a slave economy mentality

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As is common on this thread, you don't want to answer a simple question or rationally defend your positions, all of which makes it appear that you have no answers. Making baseless accusations is not engaging in thought.

Rather than everyone just getting angry, I'm going to call it quits. I've made my points. People can accept them or reject them. Just make sure your position is well thought out. I'm very comfortable with where I am on this. It's a shame we can't have a simple, non-angry discussion, but it is what it is. Best wishes!

Its all good peeps. I can't say I don't like the argument thing myself and we have done a lot of it here over the years. It can get pretty wild. Yet we keep coming back don't we? I'm rather use to disagreements myself, we all have a different point of view, and consensus generally takes a lot of arguing. I don't know any better way to make a point than with facts we agree on, or NOT, as some reject reality and dismiss it as right/left talking points very easily.

JL I think you side tracked yourself a bit trying to understand where the consensus of 15 bucks as a floor for wages comes from. I think if you consider how the founders came up with the constitution you would see they too argued with the words and conditions of the day. Tom reminds me all the time that they couldn't do away with slavery back then, too many opposed making ALL men equal. They had to come up with a consensus just to get the darned thing ratified, and that's the way it's worked ever since. Consensus in increment to address whatever the problem was. Sometimes the ONLY solution is a compromise between to opposite ideas. So why not 20, or 80 bucks for a MW? Simple, we cannot get there anytime soon so a smaller step has to be taken. Heck guy we are struggling with $15, and that's at the state level. The Fed has made no changes to the MW and not planning to as far as I know.

Some states can afford it, some cannot, and yes maybe states will lose some jobs, but some states will gain. Even the ones who have moved to $15 bucks have done so in INCREMENTS over YEARS. It's a process of adjustment, both for people and commerce. Some will grow faster than others and some will disappear from the heights of their hay days. It's complex. So in my opinion, nobody is taking YOUR money and giving it to someone you deem unworthy. Easy for me to blast that notion as right wing lunacy, but I get the concept of working hard and keeping what you work hard for. I really do, but not all people can wait for someone to deem them worthy of their charity and help voluntarily. That's why we have taxes, and just my opinion again, too many cheat to keep the money they supposedly make.

When they took the chains off the slaves, they had a better way to make us all slaves and had no need to use the chains because we can volunteer our services for wages. WAGE SLAVERY is something you should check out from the other thread. Another piece to the bigger puzzle. We aren't going to change each others minds, but we can get some consensus to move forward can't we. If all you got are baby steps, that's cool too.

In case you haven't noticed even without a rise in the MW, the cost of living have gone up dramatically. $6 bucks for summer help is out of the box for sure. Consider what Big Biz has done with their deficit funded tax cuts and the legions of part time workers who have no benefits and tell me why they don't deserve a living wage. Your math may work in rural Ole Miss, but not in the big city where the rents are already through the roof.

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In case you haven't noticed even without a rise in the MW, the cost of living have gone up dramatically. $6 bucks for summer help is out of the box for sure. Consider what Big Biz has done with their deficit funded tax cuts and the legions of part time workers who have no benefits and tell me why they don't deserve a living wage. Your math may work in rural Ole Miss, but not in the big city where the rents are already through the roof.

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Nice response. This is like a moth to a candle. I just can't stay out of it!

My first real job was bagging groceries at the local navy base. We were paid... nothing. We made it off tips. The next two summers I worked at a local gas station, 60 hours a week for a buck an hour. Minimum wage was 1.65, but I somehow ended up with just a buck. No time and a half for overtime. A buck an hour. Still, it was great. It kept me out of trouble. It taught me to come to work on time. It gave me some confidence. If some well meaning liberal had come along and said that my boss had to pay me 2 dollars instead of just 1, then I would not have had a job. That's why teens working summer or part time jobs need to get a level below minimum wage. If they can't get that, then they will not, in many cases, have a job. And after all, they are not concerned with paying rent, buying groceries, and so forth. They just need some date money, gas money, etc. The main thing is, learning how to work.

The same is true of young adults who didn't graduate from high school, got a GED, might have a criminal record, or whatever, and might need two or three years of just having a chance to prove themselves. That should be their call, and not yours. They are at-risk employees. They need an edge to get started. This is the big problem I have with your position (besides not being able to explain that if 15 is wonderful, then why isn't 30 DOUBLE wonderful). You are not living in the real world of employment.

The best solution is a healthy economy. When you have that, then the person who is willing to work hard, keep his/her mouth shut, and learns everything he/she can will not make mw for long. That's the way up, and that's where you and I differ. You spend so much time weeping and referring to such silliness as wage slavery. If a person wants to make it, then he/she can. Easy? No, but they can do it. I know that is true because I have seen it countless times.

There is no such thing as "rural Ole Miss". If you want to be offensive, at least be intelligently offensive. And please let poor ole Paraclete know that I say that jokingly.

You know as well as I do the economy goes up and down depending on condition beyond the control of most of us citizens. Never has it gone south because of poor people. It's always the rich guys who screw things up, and the rest of us pay for it.

Welfare ain't no fun. The plant I retired from no longer exists.

One more story. When I was in college, I worked summers and some weekends for a local moving company. Tough, hard work, and I loved it. Made two bucks an hour. One of our employees was a guy named Raz Finley. Raz was hard working and became very competent. He was a kind of asst. manager by the time I left. He was a black man. I mention that because this was the 70's, and the hill was higher to climb for him. Several years after I left, the owner decided to retire. He was far removed from being a liberal democrat, but he knew talent when he saw it. He sold the company to Raz, and for many years "Finley Moving and Storage" was written on the sign. He did all of that with no help from weeping liberals. He worked hard and worked smart, during good times and bad times. He made it big after starting small. So I think the many Raz Finleys in this world trump your sad story about rich guys messing things up. They do mess things up, and if what they do is illegal, then they should be prosecuted. But this is still the land of opportunity.

I can actually sympathize with some adjustment to the minimum wage. I think 15 is too high, but I could be persuaded towards raising it so long as some reasonable allowances are made for teens and people just entering the workforce.

Actually it only goes to $10 bucks most places with further raises a few years down the road by the states that passed it. The MW applies to everybody kids included. By the way the cost of living went up 2.9% the last quarter, and wages increased 2.7% in the same span. COL being prices of goods and services. I've often wondered how prices go up faster than wages and often when wages have not gone up.

Where did you get your data? The consumer price index has gone up less than two percent so far for the first six months of the year. Am I missing something?

Attachment 49026

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As is common on this thread, you don't want to answer a simple question or rationally defend your positions, all of which makes it appear that you have no answers. Making baseless accusations is not engaging in thought.

Rather than everyone just getting angry, I'm going to call it quits. I've made my points. People can accept them or reject them. Just make sure your position is well thought out. I'm very comfortable with where I am on this. It's a shame we can't have a simple, non-angry discussion, but it is what it is. Best wishes!

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You just don't like the truth as to calling it quits, is this another of your false flag threats

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

CPI for all items rises 0.2% in July as shelter index rises

08/10/2018 In July, the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers increased 0.2 percent seasonally adjusted; rising 2.9 percent over the last 12 months, not seasonally adjusted. The index for all items less food and energy rose 0.2 percent in July (SA); up 2.4 percent over the year (NSA).

Consumer prices up 2.9 percent over 12 months ended June 2018

From June 2017 to June 2018, the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) rose 2.9 percent, the largest 12-month increase since the period ending February 2012. Over that period, energy prices rose 12.0 percent, the largest 12-month increase since the period ending February 2017. read more » https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/article/purchasing-power-using-wage-statistics-with-regional-price-parities-to-create-a-standard-for-comparing-wages-across-us-areas.htm

Redo your math.

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By the way the cost of living went up 2.9% the last quarter,

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rising 2.9 percent over the last 12 months,

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Slight discrepancy in the time frame. A quarter is 3 months, not 12. Happily, there is no need to redo my math.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

CPI for all items rises 0.2% in July as shelter index rises

08/10/2018 In July, the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers increased 0.2 percent seasonally adjusted; rising 2.9 percent over the last 12 months, not seasonally adjusted. The index for all items less food and energy rose 0.2 percent in July (SA); up 2.4 percent over the year (NSA).

Consumer prices up 2.9 percent over 12 months ended June 2018

From June 2017 to June 2018, the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) rose 2.9 percent, the largest 12-month increase since the period ending February 2012. Over that period, energy prices rose 12.0 percent, the largest 12-month increase since the period ending February 2017. read more » https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/article/purchasing-power-using-wage-statistics-with-regional-price-parities-to-create-a-standard-for-comparing-wages-across-us-areas.htm

Redo your math.

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What are you trying to prove? Trump is inflationary, I think that is obvious

Not trying to prove anything. Just saw a mistake in the time frame. 2.9% over the course of a year is very ordinary. 2.9 over a quarter would be very troubling.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What are you trying to prove? Trump is inflationary, I think that is obvious

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So do I.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not trying to prove anything. Just saw a mistake in the time frame. 2.9% over the course of a year is very ordinary. 2.9 over a quarter would be very troubling.

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Yes it would but I ask you to redo your math because if the trend continues your paycheck, buying power shrinks, despite what you get on your 2019 taxes. Extrapolate that .1, 2 per month, over the next year and you will see you are falling steadily behind, and some adjustment either in increased revenue streams or reduction in personal debt is indicated, as an individual as opposed to a society. So the red flag is unless your wages keep pace with inflation you're screwed if you have any big plans to spend next year.

Did I say if the trend continues? I see no abatement at this time, do you? I have been saying the price of living will go up for sometime now, so I hope you are in that 6% that can weather this inflationary period.

I will not redo my math. It was correct to begin with. Your stat was what needed a redo.

Look, 2.9% inflation is less than the historic average, so for you to bring up the subject of inflation and Trump is grasping for straws. Inflation is common to practically all presidents, including the last one. At least the economy is growing, as opposed to what we experienced for the previous eight years.

But back to the minimum wage. You were correct when you wrote that most of the areas that hiked the mw to 15 did so incrementally, so it is around 10 now and will get up to 15 in next few years. That is so typical of politicians. They want to go around crowing about raising the minimum wage, but put off actually getting to 15 for several years. That way, if the whole thing backfires, it will be someone else's problem. Dems and repubs are all the same in that regard. I would ask them why, if 15 is such a great idea, did they not do it right away?

Attachment 49027

Must be marvellous to never be wrong

You won't get off with the normal partisan closed mindedness, because we both know that inflation is but a part of the equation and logic should tell you that when inflation grows faster than wages and prices follow, then somebody is losing money. Using your own chart even the most closed minded can see that under conservative repub presidents inflation grows, why, typically tax cuts and rising prices and it would interest you how they dealt with those recessionary forces. Nixon froze prices as he ended the Vietnam war, Reagan cut taxes but raised them when he needed to modestly throughout his years which led to his third term heir BushI to get rejected by repubs and the first thing Clinton did was raise taxes to stave of the recession, and balanced the budget to boot.

Then comes BushII tax cuts and off the books 2 wars, and deficits and the global meltdown, which Obama overcame with a huge bail out with interests, and a modest jobs program, while allowing the Bush tax cut to the rich to expire. Of course you conservatives screamed and hollered as he rescued the freakin' world from rich guys screw ups, and balked at taxing rich guys by a literal nickel tax increase to spur domestic jobs with a low interest deficit neutral infrastructure bill.

So while you held your nose and voted for a guy who is known for bankruptcy, scandals, and weird antics, who inherited a solid economy, you don't get to holler how smart you conservatives are and how dumb liberals are, because history has already shown we have saved your bacon over and over and cleaned up conservative republicans messes.

Keep holding your nose as the stench is very likely to get worse. Save a few bucks for a mask, and ignore my suggestion at your own peril. Keep obsessing over that silly MW argument that peeves you so much, because if you cannot dig deeper into your own data, then I doubt if I could tell you anything that passes as something you can understand. Too bad your own inflexibility has blinded you to the obvious.

I can lead you to water Hoss, but I can't force you to drink it. I ain't got time for that! We both can sit and watch the Dufus deal with his own man made recessionary antics and blast him and his sycophants for it.

You can blame it on the liberals as usual, who cares?

Typical political speech. Liberals are wonderful, and conservatives are terrible. Conservatives, of course, say it the other way around. Obama put us a further 10 tril in debt, gave us a tepid, struggling economy with very little wage growth, and ran an administration strewn with scandal. Liberals, of course, will choose to ignore all of that. Is Trump a shining example of good character? Not even close, but your alternative, HC, was just as bad if not worse, yet you don't mention that. It's all about politics. I could be talked into voting for someone else, but who? Sanders? Warren? Biden? A collective group of incompetent losers. So, for now, I'll appreciate the economic growth and relatively low inflation, be thankful for judicial appointments who believe in the rule of law, admire what Mr. Trump has managed to accomplish in foreign relations, and yes, hold my nose for his many occasions of running his mouth. And also be gloriously happy that HC is not the president.

As for inflation and presidents, you have neglected to mention the most recent inflation king: Jimmy Carter, a democrat!

I didn't have to hold my nose to vote for a female that's been attacked by the right wing loony noise machine for many decades and that includes that BS Benghazi investigation the loons put on her. Two years and NOTHING!

You keep holding your nose and soon the rest of us may have to, or is that all it takes to abandon your morals.

More of the typical political speech. If you think Benghazi was nothing, then I don't know what to tell you. 4 people dead while Obama and Clinton did nothing. Clinton did nothing for the months leading up to it when they were practically begging for help. Then they both lied like dogs about it, trying to say it was a spontaneous event when they knew that was not true. But the truth would have been inconvenient for Obama's reelection chances, so they lied, lied, and then lied some more. Cold, calculated, wicked lying. Might be BS to you, but it wasn't to the family members of those who died.

This is just typical political nonsense. Obama was wonderful. Clinton was wonderful. Trump is a lying dufus. Truth is, they are all cut from the same bolt of cloth. You are so in love with Obama you don't want to admit it, but it is true.

I have three priorities: 1. Foster a healthy economy. 2. Appoint judges who don't legislate from the bench. 3. Eliminate deficit spending. He is 2 for 3 so far. Obama was 0 for 3, so I'm sticking with Trump for now. But if the repubs don't get spending under control and whack the budget deficit, then I'll be looking for a third party. For unlike you sometimes seem to be, I don't regard the president as being practically my best, best friend. He is an employee of the American people and nothing more. If he can't get the job done, then he can move on and we'll replace him.

All quiet on the western front.

Hello JL. In no way do I trivialize the loss of life at Benghazi. It's just I question your facts and SPIN. I mean is it not the facts that it was investigated by the congress and those facts and recommendations part of the public record? I could call the GOP House hearings partisan witch hunts, but the more important fact is they yielded nothing new. Did anybody jump on Bush after 911? No, as a nation we came together to heal recover and get the perpetrators. Benghazi was but another investigation and partisan smear job you righties jumped on, no difference that any other the right wing has used for decades.

So NO, I don't trivialize any loss of life. But you wingers in the GOP, should be held accountable for politicizing the loss of life, and the more disgusting act of justifying holding your nose and giving us the DUFUS just for your political agenda. That you were willing to "hold your nose " speaks volumes of that agenda. The good news though, The Dufus in the White House not only exposes that agenda, and shows how low you would go to further it, but the best thing is we have been spared more intense loony attacks had Hillary won. If the fear of Clinton had your head exploding for decades, imagine the spectacle of running in circles hollering the end of the world if she was in the WH. Yeah, we had a preview of that noise with Obama.

Actually since you guys have crawled from under the rock and have the spotlight, I think we all can examine the FACTS and debate how we want to move forward. I'm more convinced than ever that your agenda is nothing but a ruse to mainstream bad racist behavior and foist YOUR holier than thou agendas on the rest of us. I think my theory that you are the true minority with that kind of thinking and governance will again move to the more inclusive value that all men were created equal... be they slave or MASSA, burger flipper or CEO. Left leaning bleeding heart or right wing loony.

My only hope for you my friend is you stop being a sycophant for a morally corrupt human being. At least acknowledge that Obama came in during a raging fire that threatened the world, and put it out... and started the rebuilding process.

I was remembering this morning how many of us were ready to get up the morning after the election and say to the republican party, "This is what happens when you nominate a poor candidate." Now as it turns out, Mr. Trump won. So instead I say it to the democrats. "This is what happens when you nominate a poor candidate." She never accomplished anything worth mentioning and was as scandal plagued as Mr. Obama was.

I'm fine with people criticizing our president. I do it myself. What bothers me is that most dems are not equal opportunity criticizers. Anything a person wants to condemn Trump about is equally true of Obama and even more so with HC. After all, it was her ineptitude that cost people's lives. But you have a right to your opinion. We simply don't agree.

My ambition in life is to tell others about the saving power of Jesus Christ. Truth is, our nation is rotting from the inside out. We need look no further than ourselves to see where most of our problems reside.

The Dems appear to be doubling down on wacky .
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/u...-midterms.html


Bold prediction . Since the Manafort trial was about tax evasion even though throughout the years the IRS never went after him... exoneration ….maybe even jury nullification .

That's what SHOULD happen.

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Bold prediction . Since the Manafort trial was about tax evasion even though throughout the years the IRS never went after him... exoneration ….maybe even jury nullification .

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

My ambition in life is to tell others about the saving power of Jesus Christ. .

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Good luck with that objective. You won't get it done on a website like this

You know you're LOONY when you think a Russian double agent should go free when it's well documented that he evaded paying taxes by filing false documents to defraud the government and US banks while working for The Dufus, and his partner in crime admits it.

You know you're LOONY when you make the bad guys some misunderstood heroes, and want him free.

I guess you'll have to defend Dufus Jr. too, pretty soon. Hope your noses don't fall off your faces from pinching them to hard. Or maybe that's why Trump sycophants sound so funny because they have to breathe through their mouths all the time.