Someone thought it was a good idea to use OPM for their pet projects, it is called convenience, much easier to shear the sheep with the idea that everyone pays whether they benefit or notQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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Someone thought it was a good idea to use OPM for their pet projects, it is called convenience, much easier to shear the sheep with the idea that everyone pays whether they benefit or notQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The rich are flush with money, the poor are even poorer, working people haven't gotten a raise in decades, and the roads and bridges and schools are crumbling, and Russia is screwing with the internet. The Dufus says he is doing a fantastic job, better than any president in history, The crowds go wild!
Don't look up!
Is that because pigs are flying and you might get pigdung in the eye? Or is it that meteorites are dashing across the sky?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Your country is enjoying a better economic climate, who can say if Trump contributed or the actions of others contributed but confidence is up, always a good thing. I think your problems stem from the distributed nature of your political scene, you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others. Trump is not responsibility for problems at a local level, he wasn't elected to the school board, or your state or local government. Reality says there is alack of funds despite record spending and you have to ask, how much does a large illegal immigrant population contribute to the problems, how much does disadvantage contribute to the problems. Anyone can identify a problem, taking action is the difficult part
That's not rain falling on our heads!Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Lots of venting going on for sure, both sides, but the war of ideas rage on, and the data says the economy has been steady and growing for a few years now but perception is everything and the fringe is giddy with their new star. They were the sourpusses for many years bring everybody down and even now are talking crazy with conspiracies to keep their spirits up. My side always has the hope that steady pragmatic progress is better than brimstone fire and fairy dust. That's why the Dufus must feed red meat to them constantly with his hillbilly in person rallies across the country. Repubs let him spout off, because they got the tax cuts for the cronies, and will pick a slew of federal judges and the prized supreme court judges. They are all nervous awaiting the next election though, because they may lose power, and MONEY, and a chance to push more of their wish list. They are also afraid the artificial juicing of the economy will offset the tax cuts and the tariff wars and PUTIN will bite them in the butt, and they get blamed.Quote:
Your country is enjoying a better economic climate, who can say if Trump contributed or the actions of others contributed but confidence is up, always a good thing.
The constant drumbeat of bleating idiots is louder than the nerds and wonks at this time and for that we can thank the Dufus. Actually state governors and legislatures run the country, as they control the elections and electoral college, and set the priorities in their locations.Quote:
I think your problems stem from the distributed nature of your political scene, you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others.
To some extent you are correct, but some localities are doing better than others and a few are deserted economic failures, specifically rural one industry small towns that lost that one industry and the lives that fed it. Repubs have long consolidated local and state power though to elect the Dufus. Let's face it The Dufus won, maybe with Russian help, but mostly with his loony fringe right wing base of racists and idiots that he totally unleashed on the republican party. He destroyed them and now it's the DUFUS party. The good news is they are loud and visible and can be identified. They've always existed.Quote:
Trump is not responsibility for problems at a local level, he wasn't elected to the school board, or your state or local government.
I don't worry about 10% or less of the population hiding in cracks and shadows having much impact on anything other than being a racist scare tactic for loonies that want a wall you can see from space as a gift from those illegal immigrants. Now the issue of poverty and the wage gap, that's a biggie. Growing poverty is not good in a consumer driven economy. Doesn't effect exports though but tariffs do.Quote:
Reality says there is alack of funds despite record spending and you have to ask, how much does a large illegal immigrant population contribute to the problems, how much does disadvantage contribute to the problems.
I have to rebut the lack of funds reality, it's just the opposite, rich guys are FLUSH with it and manipulate the economy to keep it that way. The problem has never been lack of funds, but lack of distribution. Out right stealing doesn't help either.
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Anyone can identify a problem, taking action is the difficult part
Especially when there is opposition to the solution, or it costs someone money.
The real question is how did the nation survive before 1913 when the 16th amendment became the law of the land ?Quote:
Then why do we pay both state and federal income taxes by April 15th?
Well here there was a temporary income tax of 3% during the Civil War. But the movement to go to confiscatory income taxing began just about the same time as the progressive movement began getting it's legs .(what a coincidence!)
Someone thought it was a good idea to use OPM for their pet projects, it is called convenience, much easier to shear the sheep with the idea that everyone pays whether they benefit or not
AMEN !Quote:
you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others.
I see Tom understands
Loonies of a feather stick together. Tom hates taxes and thinks everyman for himself, a recipe for chaos if you have a weak central government with 50 sovereign states. We had our bloody war over it, and even though it's less bloody we still conflict on how the government can function best and states can be do their own thing under the umbrella of the central government. It takes a strong central government here, to keep order and apply the law and provide equal protection under that law.
Some disagree, and that's fine since there is always an election looming to voice your opinion and stake your claim to whatever you believe in. Fact is as a country grows, so must the central government, and that you will realize Clete as your land becomes more populated. So no matter what side of the fence you are on you still need a referee to keep a semblance of order, or we have another bloody war. War without the blood is much preferable.
Don't you both agree?
I do not agree that it is necessary to grow the central government as a nation grows .I think the government should stay within it's constitutional mandate ;that those powers are few and enumerated ,and that power is derived from the people ;and that liberties are God granted and not granted by government and that the government that governs least governs best .
“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”James Madison,Federalist45, 1788
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.” –John Adam
I get you Tom, but the opinions of those very fine founding fellows has long ago been replaced, or upgraded if you will, because of some very country changing events, and developments. You have to admit that the nation has grown and changed and the old horse and buggy thinking cannot work now except in museums or celebration in honor of times past.
I would expect one that holds the value of a dollar to be self evident can acknowledge that.
nah their ideas about liberty and governance are universal and timeless
The Founding Fathers didn't have a clue that companies would poison our lakes and streams; that special interest groups would want to arm men, women, and even children; and that 326 million people would be living here in 2018. Thus, we need a strong central government to make uniform the solutions needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
if you don't think special interests were a concern with the Framers then you haven't read the history . The first special interest groups were the political parties themselves and they have always been primarily special interest groups . Madison in Federalist 10 made it very clear how necessary interest groups are .“Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires.“I think the Founding Fathers would be very surprised to learn that lobbying is something that is looked down upon. They would have thought that lobbying is foreseeable as the government grew in size and complexity. That is why the right to lobby("to petition the Government" ) is in the 1st amendment. There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting the creation and enforcement of environmental laws . They easily anticipated and looked forward to a growing nation . That is precisely why the Articles of Confederation needed to be scrapped .
I think you missed the point of Wondergirl's post. Some things the Framers anticipated, others they did not.
They were named Jefferson and Hamilton and Madison - not Nostradamus. 1789 is not 2018 and never will be.
A point I have made to Tom on many occasions but he has faith in the founders to discern all thingsQuote:
1789 is not 2018 and never will be.
I understood her point very well . I reject the premise . I'll let Washington say it because he said it better than I can.
"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution, which at any time exists, ‘till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. … If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."— George Washington
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Originally Posted by tomder55
Very nice words, but let us not forget it was that very usurpation that allowed Washington to lead the faction that broke away from the legally constituted government of King George.
Nothing is written in stone.
So Tom what are you doing about the current usurpation? Washington forgets he earned his position by usurpation
I'm in favor of amending the constitution by either the Congressional method or by the convention of the states .That is the constitutional way to make change .As for Washington and the Founder's so called usurpation ,I'll quote the Declaration of Independence .
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You say you reject that premise (paraphrased as "nothing is forever") yet you quote Jefferson's own words supporting the very premise you are objecting to.
If I am missing something, I'm sure you'll tell me.
This is the vehicle for constitutional change. You live in an era of absolute despotism and the remedy is plain, not to uphold the constitution but throw it offQuote:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The remedy most often used has been amending the Constitution. In fact, the Framers saw immediately that the Constitution would need to be modified from time to time - hence, the Bill of Rights, the First Ten Amendments.
Yes but they didn't go far enough, they were filled with good intentions for future generations but not for themselves, as they maintained slavery and considered democracy an anathemaQuote:
Originally Posted by Athos
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=paraclete;3819902 as they maintained slavery
The alternative was no Constitution and no nation. It would take another 70 years before this was resolved in a bloody Civil War.
There is no absolute despotism in this country ;not even close .Quote:
This is the vehicle for constitutional change. You live in an era of absolute despotism and the remedy is plain, not to uphold the constitution but throw it off
Athos is right .The issue of slavery was irreconcilable in 1787. It remained so until 1865 when it was settled violently .
But you should stop throwing rocks from a glass house . Your nation allowed slavery to continue until 1970s as the indigenous and people from surrounding islands were compelled to work without wages ;often separating families .The convicts worked without wages until the 1850s . Then there was a practice called pearling where indigenous were kidnapped and sold to the pearl trade in the north . Then there is this :
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/aus...27-1muhg3.htmlQuote:
Between 1860 and 1970, Australia effectively hadstate-sanctioned slaveryof Aboriginal people. Historians Dr Rosalind Kidd andDr Thalia Anthonyhave documented how Aboriginal Australians of all ages were forcibly sent to work on sheep and cattle properties across Australia under government schemes that were supposedly "designed to protect them". Laws in Western Australia allowed Aboriginal children to be sent from the age of 12. The conditions were often horrific: 16-hour days, floggings and forced removal from families. They were either unpaid or received only a few shillings pocket money. State governments assured these workers that their wages were placed in a government trust, but most never saw a cent.
No Tom it wasn't slavery, you can't enslave the fauna. We did not forceibly import millions of people from Africa to do unpaid labour after selling them in slave markets. Convicts were criminals, transportation wasn't an ideal solution but they fared better here than where they came from in many cases. There is no doubt indigenous people were badly treated but we did not have a policy of actively wiping them out as you did
I can see you like to listen to propaganda and we have a lot of it here from a noisy minority who have everything done for them and still want more
You mean done to them for there own good. It's not your fault they don't do as you tell them and assimilate at your pace, and the manner prescribed to them.
you didn't need to .There were plenty of natives and nearby islanders to do your slave labor . You really are in denial about your history. What does blackbirding mean ? How about pearling . Do you deny that Australia used aboriginal slave to create a cotton industry when the American Civil War disrupted the world cotton supply ? Do you deny that men and women from the islands were kidnapped to work in sugar plantations into the 20th century ? Do you deny that aboriginals were kidnapped and sent to cattle and sheep ranches as slaves as late as 1970 ? Do you deny that even when these workers got paid that often the money was confiscated and never given to the workers ? These wages were often stolen by corrupt politicians or the owners themselves . Stolen Compensation is still an unresolved issue there today .Quote:
We did not forceibly import millions of people from Africa
In 1974, in his film The Unlucky Australians , John Goldschmidt explains how “the authorities made [Aboriginal work] slave labour by making the Aborigines wards of the state”, referring to the Welfare Ordinance of 1953 which made Aboriginal people of the NT wards and the Director of Welfare their guardian. As wards, Aboriginal workers couldn’t leave the station where they were working, “could be forcibly brought back with chains around their necks”.
The more I look into this ,it resembles holocaust denial or the Germans denying their complicity in the Nazi atrocities . At least in America we acknowledge our past . http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journal....html#Heading1
You can't assimilate a tribal person all you can do is leave them aloneQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It is not deniel to say that not all opinions are true, our nation is still working through the issue of what state and religious organisations were complicit in. We acknowledge our past and we can say that change was made but you need to remember that freedom is not the provience of the USA, you talk to jim crow and excuse the treatment of millions for a century or more before you point at us.
You should know that aboriginals have a particular affinity to country so to say they could not leave is to ignore the question of where did they have to go?
Seems they were not allowed to go anywhere you did not approve of, but so much for your moral high ground and blaming them for their situation. I don't recall you ever acknowledging the part you played in this, or the part you still play. Wrongs that are rooted in race are never solved in a legislative session but through many years and decades of changed minds and hearts, so I ain't buying that you have solved your own problem in this regard, it's just less blatant and probably more insidiously taken off the public front burner just as ours still is.
Whupping someone's arse and then leaving them alone is no solution. That never worked here, it won't work there either... but you'll see.
I didn't play any part in this, nor do I CONTINUE TO PLAY A PART! So stop projecting. I didn't say we have solved all the problems, these people want a sovereignty over the majority we will never surrender. You cannot understand how to negotiate with a people who see themselves as part of the land. Every rock, every pool is "sacred" or has a spirit, so in their view no one can do anything. This isn't race although the concept of work appears to have completely elluded them. The affairs of these people is very much on the front burner. They want us to live by their rules which are completely incomprehensibleQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Image a situation where prison is seen as a holiday, where you can just go somewhere else when ever you like, where you can't date a girl because she is the wrong "skin" for you, where what ever a family member has can be taken by you for your own use, where you can just move into a family house and sponge on those there. Theirs was a primitive. Theirs was a primitive communist society, no one owned anything. They spend indeterminate amounts of time discussing things and cannot reach a consensus and they keep talking, talking. There were 250 languages so they couldn't even communicate with each other..
We didn't whupp their arse, we did have skirmishes with small groups in various places and they didn't win and were hunted in the same way you hunted Indians when they killed people or stock That was 200, 150, 100 years ago and it is over and I will not assume the guilt of a colonial past
This isn't about you, but how YOU people deal with your colonial past. All you did was blast the minority AGAIN.
Clete's white man's burden
I have no burden, I would happily leave them to live their stone age lives without interference as long as they leave me alone. I don't need to deal with the colonial past, my family have been here for two hundred years and lived in peace with those who came before.
You see I don't accept projection of guilt for the acts of others and I don't accept that just because someone may have walked upon the land in the distant past it is their's in perpetuity
You could be honest and just say you took it and ain't giving it back, even at this late stage of the game, and screw the aborigines and their issues. Oh wait that is what your saying.
we aren't talking about subduing natives . We are talking about enslaving them. You can deny your history all you want to . But you can no longer bury it .
Tal I see you no longer need an intepreter.
Tom this is not a question of slavery, working for rations may be considered slavery in your country, but such methods of compensation exist in the agricultural industry even today. The problem is that some laws in the distant past were unfair in both your country and mine
And the practice and policies of those antiquated laws still exists and used to disadvantage the unpopular part of the population. Something's have not change and hate is alive and well. The Dufus makes good use of it.
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