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Don't be concerned about our military strength .Every war you speak of we imposed severe restrictions on our application of force that was decisive in the outcomes.
We choose not to use our nukes that is true . On the reverse ,the 12ers have made it quite clear that they will use any weapon at their disposal in aggressive attacks against the nations they intend to destroy .
Quote:
Washington (AFP) - President Barack Obama acknowledged Wednesday that Iran might use cash coming its way under sanctions relief to fund "terrorist organizations" but argued this is preferable to allowing it to develop nuclear arms.
"The truth is, that Iran has always found a way to fund these efforts," Obama said, in a speech to defend the Iran nuclear deal.
"And whatever benefit Iran may claim from sanctions relief pales in comparison to the danger it could pose with a nuclear weapon."
Obama admits some unfrozen Iran cash will fund terror
The emperor is right in that the 12ers will use the money to fund their proxy terrorist organizations . However he is wrong in thinking this deal will deter their nuke development . This deal guarantees an Iranian nuke within a decade .
I can understand your feelings Tom, though I disagree, but why do you and the repubs, and NETTY, have to be on the side of the 12ers and chant "kill the deal".
Boggles my mind. I know politics make strange bedfellows but this is... crazy!
No deal guarantees them a nuke by years end. How is THAT better?Quote:
This deal guarantees an Iranian nuke within a decade .
Alan J Kuperman ,associate professor and the coordinator of the Nuclear Proliferation Prevention Project at the University of Texas at Austin, writes in the Slimes that the emperor's math is wrong. Iran’s actual breakout time under the deal would be approximately three months — not over a year. Thus, the deal would be unlikely to improve the world’s ability to react to a sudden effort by Iran to build a bomb.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/op...f=opinion&_r=3Quote:
Mr. Obama’s argument assumes that Iran would employ only the 5,060 centrifuges that the deal would allow for uranium enrichment, not the roughly 14,000 additional centrifuges that Iran would be permitted to keep mainly for spare parts. Such an assumption is laughable. In a real-world breakout, Iran would race, not crawl, to the bomb.These additional centrifuges would need to be connected, brought up to speed and equilibrated with the already operating ones. But at that point, Iran’s enrichment capacity could exceed three times what Mr. Obama assumes.
Quote:
Mr. Obama assumes that a dash for the bomb would start mainly from unenriched uranium, thereby lengthening the breakout time. But the deal would appear to also permit Iran to keep large amounts of enriched uranium in solid form (as opposed to gas), which could be reconverted to gas within weeks, thus providing a substantial head-start to producing weapons-grade uranium.......
Mr. Obama’s argument assumes that Iran would require 59 pounds of weapons-grade uranium to make an atomic bomb. In reality, nuclear weapons can be made from much smaller amounts of uranium (as experts assume North Korea does in its rudimentary arsenal). A 1995 study by the Natural Resources Defense Council concluded that even a “low technical capability” nuclear weapon could produce an explosion with a force approaching that of the Hiroshima bomb — using just 29 pounds of weapons-grade uranium.
Based on such realistic assumptions, Iran’s breakout time under the pending deal actually would be around three months, while its current breakout time is a little under two months. Thus, the deal would increase the breakout time by just over a month, too little to matter. Mr. Obama’s main argument for the agreement — extending Iran’s breakout time — turns out to be effectively worthless.
But YOU went there to wage war with Iraq, they didn't wage war on you - YOU were the aggressor.Quote:
US troops were taking some of the highest casualties on the Iraq war.
So? You guys provide arms to other nations. If doesn't back up your assertion that "There are thousands of US deaths and 10s of thousands injured and maimed directly from Iranian Qod forces ". That's just not true.Quote:
Iran was providing their surrogates in Iraq with shaped plate armor penetrating EFPs . The bulk of US casualties in Iraq were from road side bombs that Iran provided.
Don't worry Karma Tom is just playing mouthpiece for the right, next week he will try to convince us we must do something about climate change like CSG instead of coal
Why Israel's Security Experts Support The Iran Deal - And Why Iran's Hardliners Don't - The National Memo
Just sayin'.Quote:
In short, both of these top former officials believe the agreement with Iran will enhance their nation's security – and contrary to what Fox News Channel's sages might claim, they represent mainstream opinion in Israel's military and intelligence circles.
So perhaps we can safely discount the partisan demagogues and feckless opportunists who claim to be protecting the Jewish state from Barack Obama. And when someone like Mike Huckabee – who memorably escaped military service because of his “flat feet” –denounces the president for “marching Israelis to the oven door,” let's remember the sane and serious response of Israel's most experienced defenders.
Yes Tom has hitched his horse to the wrong waggon once again
There are fools in Israel as well as fools here . I can easily find quotes from both sides of this debate by security "experts " .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Israel Should 'Seriously Consider' Striking Iran - Defense/Security - News - Arutz Sheva
There are fools in Israel as well as fools here . I can easily find quotes from both sides of this debate by security "experts " .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...2#.VcPMnZvbJjo
You know he's right there are fools everywhere
I see nothing wrong with Israel striking Iran - have at 'er.
There is a madness associated with this debate, premptive strikes against nuclear reactors are complete madness. Israel got away with it in the past but there is no immediate threat
Qassem Soleimani, the Quds Force commander recently visited Moscow to meet with senior Russian leaders, despite a travel ban and U.N. Security Council resolutions barring him from leaving Iran. No doubt he carried a large shopping list with him now that Iran can anticipate a huge bounty from the world's surrender to the 12ers .
What ? You thought all this cash windfall is going to go to helping the people of Iran ? Why would you think that ? The 12ers used the limited amt of money they had during the sanction regime to purchase weapons and to export terror and their revolution throughout the region and the world .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcG5hCND_F4
Kudos to Senator Shumer who has made a very difficult decision to oppose the emperor on this so called deal with Iran. Shumer is in line to take over as Democrat leader in the Senate when Harry the punching bag Reid retires. It would've been expedient for him to support the President on this issue. But Shumer announced that the deal is so bad for the world ,and the country that he could not support it .
Also opposing the deal is both my former and current Rep . ;Dems Elliot Engel and Nita Lowey . I'm beginning to think there is a chance that Congress can get enough opposition votes to over ride the emperor's veto. You can tell by his increasingly inflammatory rhetoric against opponents to the deal ,that the emperor is getting desperate .
That's a big call Tom if they have those votes they have enough to impreach, But this deal isn't misconduct.
A Iranian travelling outside a ban, I wonder how often that happen? and why would the Russians be concerned? They pay lip service to UN mandates. You keep running these strawman conspiracy scenarios. Stay with the facts, there is a deal that dismantles certain Iranian capability. This also frees up certain economic sanctions. This is not something Obama has done in isolation, he has international partners who are not constrained by red neck policies. I would expect the Russians would be pleased to embarrass the US by having this deal fail, so I expect that aiding them would be treason, and yet there are those in your government who have taken this course. Who are these fifth columnists?
By my count you need 13 dem senators to override a veto. More if a few repubs break ranks. Good Luck.
So what's the price of loyalty these days?
Shumer is a Jew from NY with a rather powerful rich Jewish lobby and constituency. He is also a HAWK who voted for the Iraq war. No surprise where his loyalties lie, and they haven't changed over the years.
Now what was I saying?
We aren't talking impeachment . We are talking terrible judgment by our policy makers in the executive branch .Quote:
That's a big call Tom if they have those votes they have enough to impreach, But this deal isn't misconduct.
Many Dems hate thisdecision but are afraid to go against the Emperor .Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
You don't think he's risking a lot by taking a stand against the emperor ? Good keep dividing people tal . I never understood how Jews could side with the Dems anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
They have a more symathetic view of the world, Tom, having experienced the excesses of the right they don't quickly espouse right wing ideologies, however obviously they don't shirk from fighting for what they believe. You fail to see that being against something doesn't mean endorsement of your ideology. The enemy of my enemy is my friend only goes so far, and this is such a situation. Israel has many friends because they are against their enemies, but we have now seen that Israel doesn't endorse policies that reduce tensions
"Peace in our time." is what Chamberlain came home with from Germany
maybe because Israel is in an existential threat that the rest of the world isn't . But I wasn't just talking about Israel . Jews in America at least live "Republican " lives but vote Democrat.Even though there has been a slight change in this since the reign of the emperor began ,there is still a 32-point gap separating Democratic and Republican party identification among Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
It doesn't make sense .Jewish law permits abortion only to protect the life of the mother; it forbids homosexual sex ; and it prohibits suicide (except when the only alternatives are forced conversion or incest).In every instance of a clash between Jewish law and contemporary liberalism, it is the liberal creed that prevails for most American Jews.
Because those jews are educated and enlightened.Quote:
it is the liberal creed that prevails for most American Jews.
Look at the 2016 candidates - who the hell wants to be associated with a party that fields that???
This isn't about Israel, its about VOTES in the house and senate to override Obama's VETO. The repubs NEED dems, plain and simple. Netty was a fool to run to the repubs hollering just because Obama was their enemy too. He gambled and will lose because in truth, they cannot STOP the plan, even if they had the votes because no one in the entire world will join us in keeping international sanctions going, and ours against Iran will be ignored, and ineffective.
By the way, the same debate rages in Iran.
Every major religion does that, but it's okay if you are a Jew, or Christian but not a Muslim? The whole argument on religion is a strawman argument, and has little to do with the law, or acceptable behavior.Quote:
It doesn't make sense .Jewish law permits abortion only to protect the life of the mother; it forbids homosexual sex ; and it prohibits suicide (except when the only alternatives are forced conversion or incest)
Tal if people really followed the moral laws of their religion the world would be a better place, but abortion is an invention of man, war is an invention of man, need I go on? Israel is not a religious society, the US is not a religious society, they consider themselves enlightened, well they are enlightened enough to kill babies, enlightened enough to kill those who oppose them, and the whole world is besotted with the idea that man is superior.
Of course it is . That's why your attack on Shumer accusing him of being beholden to a lobby or a constituency was so off base .....or was it ?Quote:
This isn't about Israel, its about VOTES in the house and senate to override Obama's VETO.
Now that I've praised him let me bury him. Announcing his opposition is all well and good. But he's in a position in the Senate to have a huge impact on this vote. His lack of rallying hard for other Senate Democrats to join him is inexcusably insufficient given his opposition to the deal. If he truly wants the deal defeated then he has to make a better effort to defeat it beyond announcing his opposition. Schumer saying that while he will "try to persuade" other Senate Democrats is not good enough . He did not get where he is by trying to persuade. He got where he is by doing some serious arm twisting . He was the chief fund raiser for the Dems in the last 2 election cycles . That means he holds many IOUs in his pockets .
Any effort less than that will show me that his announced opposition is just pandering.
so how much of a stimulus will this be to the Iranian economy . If we go by the emperor's own words ,it is an infusion of $150 billion . By comparison ,in today's dollars ,the Marshall plan to rebuild all of Western Europe was $120 billion over a 4 year period .
You keep forgetting that it is their money, and unlike the Marshall Plan they will spend it where they want, which might be a nuclear reactor or might be to upgrade their air defenses. The thing is, some of the hatred of the US might just be lost in the changes in their society and maybe they will spend it on defeating Daesh and save you the money, or perhaps they will start a war with your friends the Saudi, who were backing Daesh. Life is a lottery, but it is unlikely they will attack Israel immediately. They may be sensible enough to know you can only fight one successful war at a time and Israel should consider how they can negotiate with the palestinians and take the heat out of one debate while attention is on Syria and Daesh
What you don't get is that the people of Iran want the changes in their society from the pre-modern society the 12ers brought with their revolution. If the Ayatollah Asshola had told them the truth about his vision of Iran ,the people would not have revolted in the 1st place. The people do not hate the US ;only the 12ers do.
The emperor thinks the money will be used to "fundamentally transform " Iran . All it will do is make them homicidal apocalyptic terrorists with nukes .
Tom what you have is a picture if where the Iranian leadership might be without a deal. You argue that they are already "homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" however the only evidence you have of tha is that they have supported "homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" in Gaza and Lebanon and it is very possible your own nation could be accused of the same thing"Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The " homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" are Daesh whom the Iranians oppose yet your alllies the Saudi and Turkey can be shown to have supported them. What is the problem here is your republicans are miffed that a reason for a war has been taken away and so there will be no war profits. You are on the wrong side Tom you are actually supporting Daesh
He said a lot more than that Tom.
CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS EXCLUSIVE: President Barack Obama on the P+5 Iran deal – CNN Press Room - CNN.com Blogs
Quote:
...And part of the function of our meeting up at Camp David with Gulf leaders was to describe how we can work with them to create a more effective counter to these kinds of activities....
Hello again,
What I wanna know, is what's the right wing plan AFTER the deal is rejected???? You KNOW we can't go back to the table.. You KNOW there are no mulligans in diplomacy.. You KNOW our allies won't go back to the table.
Other than war, what is your plan?
excon
"Bomb-bomb bomb...bomb bomb Iran....."/John McCain and his right winger singers/2007
That's always been the plan, just ask Netty.
of course we can . Reagan walked away at Reykjavik and because of that got a better deal. My plan ? I would put even more pressure on the regime to come to the table with some concessions. But they didn't because they knew that the emperor took all out leverage off the table ,and Kerry is desperate to get a Nobel Peace Prize.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:
Nahhh... Your history is misremembered. Reagan walked away BEFORE he made a deal. It matters..
excon
PS> Look, my friend.. I don't believe for a minute that you misremembered that fact... You want war, and you want PUNISHING war... Why are you afraid to SAY it?? Lindsey Graham isn't.
The basic difference was back in the day the summit was about two superpowers, talking to each other, now we have three superpowers (and a few more) on the same side against a regional second tier(?) wanna be.
Why do you guys keep leaving out the other negotiating partners?
Yes Reagan was smart enough to walk away from a deal where the country was going to get hosed . Clearly the emperor and Kerry aren't smart enough ;and clearly the Senate surrendered it's constitutional role in the process. So what I say is what I would've done. I would've supported the Green Revolution in 2009 when the 12ers stole the election . I would've been hardline at the negotiation table because that was the best way to AVOID war . What you fail the realize is that this deal makes a bigger badder war MORE LIKELY not less.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
They surrendered too . (except China a Russia ...they got exactly what they wanted )Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Hello again, tom:
Yeah, yeah, yeah... I woulda done things differently too, but that's NOT the question. We ARE where we ARE. If NOT war, WHAT is your plan?
excon
My plan is to reject this deal in Congress ;refuse to allow Banks to release Iranian funds ,and suggest to them that if they want something else ;they 'd better come to the table with a workable proposal that guarantees no notice on site inspection of ALL suspected nuclear sites .
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