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  • May 30, 2014, 09:30 AM
    smoothy
    Didn't work too well for France with Germany... being nice and not being strong... cost US a lot of lives as a result.

    Clinton ran out of the country and badmouthed our country. Obama didn't go at all, and badmouthed our country... John Kerry blew someone to get out of his tour of duty after only 4 months... and badmouthed the country, THey didn't even want Joe Biden for medical reasons.....now we know it was for a mental deficiency.

    Obama certainly didn't "WIN" anything in the 6.5 years he's been in office... and had more US soldiers killed than that 10 yers you walked about.

    And he's going to surrender, rather than win. HUGE difference...
  • May 30, 2014, 09:31 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Iraq was won . You're guy lost the post-war .

    Iraq is in worse shape than when Saddam ruled. And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:32 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Iraq is in worse shape than when Saddam ruled. And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.

    We can thank Obama for that.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:33 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    And he's going to surrender, rather than win. HUGE difference...

    There's nothing to "win."
  • May 30, 2014, 09:33 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    There's nothing to "win."

    There is everything to win... just like there is everything to lose. That Yin and Yang thing.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:34 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    We can thank Obama for that.

    We can thank Bush for setting us up and taking us into an unnecessary war.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:35 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    There is everything to win... just like there is everything to lose. That Yin and Yang thing.

    Name something.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:37 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    We can thank Bush for setting us up and taking us into an unnecessary war.


    Really... you bought that democrat ppropaganda hook line and sinker?

    If W Bush is responsible for that... then Obama is responsible for that mess in Korea that has Millions of troops involved, and not just ours.

    Couldn't possibly be that pesky thing called Cease fire agreements... the Democrat narrative is those don't exist, so they can't be violated.

    Never mind the fact I was involved in what was happening over there at the time (since before Desert Shield ever started) and saw a lot of the Cease fire agreement communications, those were highly classified communications at the time and weren't made for public consumption....or part of the public record so there was no propaganda value involved in them.... I didn't leave there to come back to the USA until we were well into the cease fire.
  • May 30, 2014, 09:43 AM
    tomder55
    David Frum mocks the strawman the emperor and you use.
    Option A: Do nothing
    Option B: Global thermonuclear war
    Option C: Preferred State Department policy

    If the emperor was leading us in WWII he'd say
    “Some say that our forces should never land on any beaches at all. Others would have us invade every beach on earth. I reject both extremes”.

    Quote:

    If Obama had met his stated goals in Afghanistan … if the Russia “reset” had worked … if Iran talks were indeed producing nuclear disarmament … if the president's “red line” in Syria was not being crossed and recrossed like center-ice in an exciting hockey game … if his Libyan intervention had not resulted in Libya becoming a more violent and unstable place … if his administration had sustained the progress toward peace in Iraq achieved during George W. Bush’s second term—if all this had been the case, the president would have been content to simply present his impressive record. But it is not the case.
    Obama’s core defense of his record is this:
    [B]y most measures, America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise—who suggest that America is in decline, or has seen its global leadership slip away—are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer. The odds of a direct threat against us by any nation are low, and do not come close to the dangers we faced during the Cold War.
    Here, Obama is offering not a false alternative but a false claim. In 2014, China will overtake the United States as the world’s largest economy, as measured in terms of purchasing power parity. Measured in nominal currency terms, the overtaking may be postponed until the 2020s. However measured, the economic primacy the U.S. has maintained since the 1890s is rapidly nearing its end. Rarely stronger relative to the rest of the world? No.
    Notice too the slippery, multi-conditional form of the president's boast about national security. “The odds of a direct threat against us by any nation are low.” That statement reveals the imprint of editing by aides who understand that indirect threats (such as the implosion of Western-oriented Arab regimes since 2010), threats against allies (such as the Russian threat to the Baltic republics or the Iranian threat to Israel), and threats by subnational actors (including all those al-Qaeda affiliates that attacked the U.S. compound in Benghazi, Libya) are all worse today than they were when the president took office.....

    At West Point, Obama opened his discussion of Iran by claiming credit for the sanctions regime against Tehran. “[A]t the beginning of my presidency, we built a coalition that imposed sanctions on the Iranian economy,” he said. Yet the most effective of those sanctions—the Kirk-Menendez measures that isolated Iran from the international-payments system—were strenuously opposed by this president. He signed them into law only after the Senate attached them to the 2012 defense-authorization bill by a vote of 100-0.
    Obama at West Point: A Foreign Policy of False Choices - David Frum - The Atlantic
  • May 30, 2014, 09:47 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.
    They have held a number of successful elections since the fall of Saddam ;and the people brave threats by terrorist that would have Americans quaking in their homes to publicly go out to the polls and proudly wave their purple dyed fingers as proof that they voted ,defying those threats .
  • May 30, 2014, 09:47 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Really... you bought that democrat ppropaganda hook line and sinker?

    I was a true Republican back then when I watched Powell deliver his schtick and also Bush talk about WMD and our responsibility to improve the lives of the Iraqi people. How gullible we all were!
  • May 30, 2014, 09:50 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I was a true Republican back then when I watched Powell deliver his schtick and also Bush talk about WMD and our responsibility to improve the lives of the Iraqi people. How gullible we all were!

    THose WMDs WERE found... and documented...

    Your first mistake was believeing anything you saw on CNN.

    I saw much of what was has going on day to day... I also saw what got reported by CNN... they rarely matched on very much... CNN was never a Republican propaganda outlet.
  • May 30, 2014, 10:03 AM
    talaniman
    Our time in Iraq is over and you neocons need to get over it. Businessmen can afford their own Army.
  • May 30, 2014, 10:04 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    THose WMDs WERE found... and documented...

    When was that?
    Quote:

    Your first mistake was believeing anything you saw on CNN.
    People dressed up as Powell and Bush to make those presentations? I don't remember what channel it was on, but they were supposedly the real Powell and Bush talking, Powell with his pointer and maps. (I don't watch CNN.)
  • May 30, 2014, 10:22 AM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    When was that?

    People dressed up as Powell and Bush to make those presentations? I don't remember what channel it was on, but they were supposedly the real Powell and Bush talking, Powell with his pointer and maps. (I don't watch CNN.)

    Been a number of them documented over the years... it didn't happen all at once, but it conflicted with the liberal medias narrative so they were "omitted" and pretended they never happened.

    CNN were the point people who had reporters who embedded wth the troops... everyone else got everything from them. That's how it worked during the Gulf war (Desert Shield and Desert Storm) They HAD to share everything with the rest. . Everything was thus tainted by their bias.
  • May 30, 2014, 10:38 AM
    Wondergirl
    I'm talking about the presentations by Bush and Powell, not about networks or the liberal media or Desert Storm. "We can't wait for the inspectors to finish."
  • May 30, 2014, 11:04 AM
    smoothy
    Understand what a cease fire violation is? Understand what the consequences of cease fire agreements are? Particularly if they are flagrant and frequent?
  • May 30, 2014, 11:21 AM
    tomder55
    "We can't wait for the inspectors to finish."

    We have been waiting for the inspectors to finish in Iran for years. They have advanced so far that it is a fait accompli that Iran will have nukes.
  • May 30, 2014, 01:25 PM
    speechlesstx
    Speaking of Iran, Lurch says Ukraine, Syria, and Iran are some of the emperor's foreign policy successes that he just doesn't give himself enough credit for.
  • May 30, 2014, 01:37 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Speaking of Iran, Lurch says Ukraine, Syria, and Iran are some of the emperor's foreigan policy successes that he just doesn't give himself enough credit for.

    We're not at war so far, despite what Cheney and McCain want.
  • May 30, 2014, 02:29 PM
    talaniman
    You're so worried about what they are doing over there, and everywhere, but we can't stop our own loonies from killing our own kids. Naw, but the neocons want more of our kids to go die in a foreign land so they can brag how strong they are.
  • May 30, 2014, 02:41 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    We're not at war so far, despite what Cheney and McCain want.

    OK, so explain how they're foreign policy successes.
  • May 30, 2014, 02:45 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You're so worried about what they are doing over there, and everywhere, but we can't stop our own loonies from killing our own kids. Naw, but the neocons want more of our kids to go die in a foreign land so they can brag how strong they are.

    We're going to war? That's not what our military is for any more, it's new job is to "create a new world order."
  • May 30, 2014, 03:35 PM
    paraclete
    all it has ever created is disorder
  • May 30, 2014, 03:49 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    The reference to a “new world order” echoed a similar goal set by President George Bush after the collapse of European communism.
    Quote:

    Biden described the new order as a world that seeks human rights, free trade and an end to poverty and oppression.
    Terrible, terrible things to do in eyes of the right.
  • May 30, 2014, 04:00 PM
    smoothy
    A "NEW WORLD ORDER" is always totalitarian... or socialist. Neither of them desirable to anyone but the laziest people. Or people with Napoleon complexes
  • May 30, 2014, 04:05 PM
    paraclete
    The new world order is a world ruled by eletes. something similar to what you have already experimented with, it is just a way of them pedling their influence. Benevolent dictatorship is never a good thing. Compared with the eighteenth century we have already seen a new world order and apparently we didn't like it. Personally I don't like the republican idea of a new world order it smacks of empire
  • May 30, 2014, 04:32 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    OK, so explain how they're foreign policy successes.

    My nieces and nephews in the military aren't getting killed?
  • May 30, 2014, 04:41 PM
    paraclete
    these is an easy way to stop people getting killed stop military aventurism
  • May 30, 2014, 04:56 PM
    smoothy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    these is an easy way to stop people getting killed stop military aventurism

    Remember that when an emboldened China sets its sites much further south than the Asian Continent, its not if but when since they tend to follow Russia's lead... we really don't want to be involved in any military adventurism.
  • May 30, 2014, 05:45 PM
    paraclete
    By military adventurism I mean Iraq and Libya, Granada and Panama, meeting treaty obligations is not military adventurism, that is what the military is for. I think you need to be much more worried about what your response will be when China, who possesses a large land army, decides they want mineral rich Siberia. Which side are you going to be on? the nation that supplies your ally Europe with energy or the nation that supplies your own economy with cheap goods. To war against China would cripple your own economy, this is the place you have placed yourself
  • May 31, 2014, 02:11 AM
    tomder55
    glad someone recognizes the potential Chinese Siberian land grab . When that happens there will be a nuclear exchange that will plunge the world into a nuclear winter . Russia does not have the ability ,or the population to defend Siberia any other way.
  • May 31, 2014, 04:14 AM
    paraclete
    they have done fairly well in the past and a couple of tactical nukes is no biggy in Siberia they have had bigger blasts, you have avoided the question which side will you be on?
  • May 31, 2014, 06:48 AM
    tomder55
    China is the bigger long term threat .
  • May 31, 2014, 07:18 AM
    talaniman
    When is this Chinese land grab supposed to start? Is this before Iran blows up Israel? If China gets nuked, who does Australia sell dirt too? Whose side will Europe be on?
  • May 31, 2014, 07:51 AM
    tomder55
    China would just be using the Putin doctrine . Why do you think the Chinese have been giving support to the Russians for their land grab ? The precedent is set .

    There are many ethnic Han Chinese in Siberia. All they need to do is have a bogus referendum to have China annex .There are many Russian women marry Chinese men because..1. The Chinese have been killing off their baby girls leaving nothing for the men but to look elsewhere for brides and 2. Chinese men don't drink and abuse their women as much as Russians . Besides ;Lebensraum.China has a lot of people ..the Russians have a declining population (except perhaps invading Muslims ). Think of it as their manifest destiny .
    As far as impotent Europe is concerned ;they'll go along with whoever wins. What choice do they have ?

    Anyway ,the possibility is outlined in the Harvard Int. Review.
    Will China Colonize and Incorporate Siberia? | Harvard International Review
  • May 31, 2014, 04:23 PM
    paraclete
    so Tom you fail to reognise your economy is interwined with China, you would criticise us but our mineral exports only comprise 10% of GDP, I'm sure WA would be devastaged for a while or it might take some of the pressure off and give them time for more sustainable development after all fly in fly out is no way to live. You think it is a big thing but I have a view that inevietably Europe, America and China have to look to their own markets and satisfying their own demand, this idea that we can have the materials and the produce of the Earth circling the globe is nonsense
  • May 31, 2014, 04:50 PM
    talaniman
    Its already happening Clete, get with the program. Air and sea.
  • May 31, 2014, 04:57 PM
    paraclete
    what is already happening? I know what we are doing, I'm saying it is unsustainable
  • May 31, 2014, 05:32 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    this idea that we can have the materials and the produce of the Earth circling the globe is nonsense
    Its growing Clete. Even in Australia, what do you live in the woods or the desert or something?

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