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-   -   Does Gay Marriage Infringe on Your Religious Liberty? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=751232)

  • Jun 4, 2013, 09:04 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:
    I KNEW you'd think only one party was honorable.. I suppose you think the gay couple should have just taken their seat in the back of the bus... I mean they should have just taken the referrals and kept QUIET...

    My friend, graciousness has NOTHING to do with rights.. The law does.

    What if I was VERY gracious with a black patron in my restaurant, and offered him an excellent meal in the kitchen? Or what if I went out of my way, being gracious, of course, and made a reservation for him at one of the black restaurants down the street? Would that be cool with you?

    excon

    Bullsh*t, Tal just spoke of respect for the rights of others. Where is the respect of the florist's religious rights?

    I knew you didn't really believe no one's rights trump another's just as I said above. You DO believe the gay couple's rights trump the first amendment rights of the florist and that is rather hypocritical in light of your previous statement..
  • Jun 4, 2013, 09:24 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Where is the respect of the florist's religious rights?

    When I own a business and want to make money as I sell to the entire population, why should I think my religious rights have anything to do with anything?

    So then that means that since I'm Lutheran (Protestant) and, remembering the Protestant Reformation with great affection, I can refuse to sell to anyone not Protestant? What good would that do me as a business owner wanting to make a profit?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 09:27 AM
    excon
    Hello again, Steve:
    Quote:

    I knew you didn't really believe no one's rights trump another's just as I said above.
    If I said that, and I probably did, I didn't complete the statement... In our judicial system, one persons rights bump up against somebody else's rights ALL THE TIME.. They're the ones who decide who's rights trump the others. Generally speaking, I agree with 'em.

    If the SCOTUS rules that her religious rights trump the gay couples rights, then that's the way it is. However, given our history, and their previous decisions, I believe they'll agree with ME.

    Excon
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:01 AM
    speechlesstx
    Just tell us ex, which rights are invalid?

    Personally I don't believe your side gives a damn about my rights whatsoever or you wouldn't have a cow over someone saying something to the effect of "hey guys, you've been good customers and I'd love to sell you flowers, but please respect my decision not to participate in your wedding." What is the freakin' harm in that? Can we as a society never work anything out without hammering someone else into submission?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:11 AM
    excon
    Hello again, Steve:
    Quote:

    but please respect my decision not to participate in your wedding." What is the freakin' harm in that?
    I DO give a damn about your rights. But, I think you're being a little one way here... You seem to think YOUR rights should reign supreme. You seem to think the ONLY harm here, when deciding between the two parties, is the FLORISTS harm. Frankly, it looks like it's YOU who doesn't give a damn about the gay couple's rights. What's the freaking harm in dropping off a dozen or so roses??

    Excon
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:28 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    What's the freaking harm in dropping off a dozen or so roses??
    That is indeed a good question which brings up back to the OP.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:32 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdad View Post
    She didnt, she based it on religious convictions. She had hired gays before and previously sold flowers to these same people on other occassions.

    If she wants to be consistent in her religious principles and convictions, she should NOT be hiring gays or selling anything to them.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:35 AM
    speechlesstx
    Did she refuse to sell them a dozen roses?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:42 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Did she refuse to sell them a dozen roses?
    She refused to sell them anything:
    Quote:

    On March 1, Robert Ingersoll entered the shop in Richland, a small town approximately 200 miles from Seattle, where he had been buying flowers for years. When he informed Stutzman he was getting married to his boyfriend, Curt Freed, the store owner stopped him cold.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 10:57 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    If she wants to be consistent in her religious principles and convictions, she should NOT be hiring gays or selling anything to them.

    The difference between making a statement against the ceremony she'd be forced to participate in and a judgement against the individuals. She makes no judgement against them ;but she opposed the ceremony and refused to participate in ANY way.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:00 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    She makes no judgement against them
    You mean other than refusing them service completely when she found out he was gay?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:15 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    the difference between making a statement against the ceremony she'd be forced to participate in and a judgement against the individuals. She makes no judgement against them ;but she opposed the ceremony and refused to participate in ANY way.

    But her Bible apparently says homosexuality is an abomination. Why does she sell to them (she says she has served gay customers her entire career) and hire them (in her own words, "I could not [provide the flowers] because of my relationship with Jesus." She added: "I have hired all walks of people in different circumstances, and had the privilege of working with some very talented people that happen to be gay... "). Her Bible also says, "Eschew evil." Apparently, she picks and chooses what she wants to believe.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:25 AM
    tomder55
    Did Jesus eshew people because he disproved of their acts ? Did he stone Mary Magdalene ? No he did not . But he certainly did not participate in their evil acts. John 8 1:11
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:31 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Did Jesus eshew people because he disproved of their acts ?

    She apparently disapproves of their actions but knowingly hires gays and sells to them on a day-to-day basis. Aren't they "doing evil" (according to her Bible) behind closed doors with her flowers in their house? So what is different about a same-sex wedding when she would take the order, get paid, and drop off the flowers at the wedding site?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:36 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    the difference between making a statement against the ceremony she'd be forced to participate in and a judgement against the individuals. She makes no judgement against them ;but she opposed the ceremony and refused to participate in ANY way.

    Yet everyone here is judging this woman, who by the way has filed a countersuit.

    Quote:

    She has a previous history of serving, and employing, self-identified homosexuals.

    Now, Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys have filed a countersuit, Arlene’s Flowers v. Ferguson, on Stutzman’s behalf.

    ADF explains that the state’s lawsuit “is attempting to force Stutzman to act contrary to her religious convictions in violation of her constitutional freedoms.”

    In America, the government is supposed to protect freedom, not use its intolerance for certain viewpoints to intimidate citizens into acting contrary to their faith convictions,” said ADF senior legal counsel Dale Schowengerdt. “Family business owners are constitutionally guaranteed the freedom to live and work according to their beliefs.”

    He added, “It is this very freedom that gives America its cherished diversity and protects citizens from state-mandated conformity.”

    In additional to federal constitutional protections, the Washington State Constitution also protects “freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief, and worship,” as stated in Article 1, Section 11.
    Seems to me giving a referral accommodates the interests of both sides and no one has to violate their beliefs, but that would mean you lefties would have to honor our right to freedom of religion and we can't have that can we?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:37 AM
    tomder55
    I'll leave it to your imagination to determine what possible evil they are doing with the flowers she sells them . If Jesus wouldn't judge the adulterer then there is no compelling reason for her to judge the homosexual . No ,her beef is solely with being compelled to participate in an act she is religiously opposed to.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:41 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I'll leave it to your imagination to determine what possible evil they are doing with the flowers she sells them . If Jesus wouldn't judge the adulterer then there is no compelling reason for her to judge the homosexual . No ,her beef is solely with being compelled to participate in an act she is religiously opposed to.

    I said nothing about doing evil with flowers. Please reread my post. The flowers are in a gay's house, or the flowers are at a same-sex wedding ceremony -- so what's the difference?

    But she IS judging the homosexual by refusing to supply flowers for his wedding after selling them to him at other times, knowing he is gay.

    No one is compelling her to participate in any act. (And hiring gays and selling flowers to gays in her shop is not "participating in an act"?)
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:44 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    the Washington State Constitution also protects “freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief, and worship,
    Wow, that could cover pretty much anything when you think about it. It's extremely wide-ranging... "all matters of religious sentiment"? How does one define the limits to that?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:53 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I said nothing about doing evil with flowers. Please reread my post. The flowers are in a gay's house, or the flowers are at a same-sex wedding ceremony -- so what's the difference?

    But she IS judging the homosexual by refusing to supply flowers for his wedding after selling them to him at other times, knowing he is gay.

    No one is compelling her to participate in any act. (And hiring gays and selling flowers to gays in her shop is not "participating in an act"?)

    Supplying flowers to a homosexual marriage is participating in the marriage ceremony . That is an indisputable fact.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 11:58 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    supplying flowers to a homosexual marriage is participating in the marriage ceremony . that is an indisputable fact.

    And her being willing (no religious concerns) to hire gays and sell flowers to them, knowing they are gay, cancels out the wedding "participation" problem. If this is how her Bible reads ("no participation in gay weddings"), she should have a sign on her shop window, "Gays will not be hired or served in any capacity." Otherwise, she is talking out of both sides of her mouth.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 12:07 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    And her being willing (no religious concerns) to hire gays and sell flowers to them, knowing they are gay, cancels out the wedding "participation" problem. If this is how her Bible reads ("no participation in gay weddings"), she should have a sign on her shop window, "Gays will not be hired or served in any capacity."

    Your rights don't get "canceled out" that way and you don't get to decide when she can exercise those rights.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 12:15 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    supplying flowers to a homosexual marriage is participating in the marriage ceremony . That is an indisputable fact.
    Uh no, that's not 'indisputable' - in fact it's highly disputable. It's a textbook case of slippery slope type of argument - BBC - Ethics - Introduction to ethics: The slippery slope
  • Jun 4, 2013, 12:17 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Your rights don't get "canceled out" that way and you don't get to decide when she can exercise those rights.

    So she can hire gays and sell to gays, but just not deliver flowers to a same-sex wedding. (I truly do not understand the difference.)

    Her Bible says homosexuality is an abomination. Why not all or nothing? (Gays' money is acceptable sometimes, but not at other times?)
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:14 PM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Uh no, that's not 'indisputable' - in fact it's highly disputable. It's a textbook case of slippery slope type of argument - BBC - Ethics - Introduction to ethics: The slippery slope

    I get it that you don't understand religion.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:18 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    So she can hire gays and sell to gays, but just not deliver flowers to a same-sex wedding. (I truly do not understand the difference.)

    Her Bible says homosexuality is an abomination. Why not all or nothing? (Gays' money is acceptable sometimes, but not at other times?)

    Tom answered that already.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:20 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I get it that you don't understand religion.

    Why does her religion allow her to sell flowers to gays sometimes but not at other times?

    If two lesbians came into her shop holding hands and wanted to buy an nice arrangement for the dining room table, would she sell flowers to them?

    If a gay guy came in and said he wanted to send a dozen red roses to his legally married gay partner, would she refuse to complete the transaction?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:23 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    tom answered that already.

    No, he used Jesus to skirt around my question.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:30 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    I get it that you don't understand religion.
    Oh I do, better than you think.

    Enumerate for us the interactions with homosexuals that are allowed and those that aren't allowed, as per Jesus and/or the bible.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:33 PM
    excon
    Hello again,

    I think Carol made a compelling LEGAL argument too. If doing business with gays is bad, then she shouldn't do business with them AT ALL. But, if she SELECTIVELY does business with them, then she can't argue that she refused to do business THIS TIME because of her religious conscience.

    excon
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:50 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I think Carol made a compelling LEGAL argument too. If doing business with gays is bad, then she shouldn't do business with them AT ALL. But, if she SELECTIVELY does business with them, then she can't argue that she refused to do business THIS TIME because of her religious conscience.

    excon

    Nice summary!
  • Jun 4, 2013, 01:56 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I think Carol made a compelling LEGAL argument too. If doing business with gays is bad, then she shouldn't do business with them AT ALL. But, if she SELECTIVELY does business with them, then she can't argue that she refused to do business THIS TIME because of her religious conscience.

    excon

    And if all they wanted to do was pick flowers up at her shop she probably would have had no problem, but to do a wedding you have to go the site and set up the flowers, etc. What if the wedding were at a porn shop, a strip club? What if the wedding was a nude affair? What if they wanted Satanic symbols in the arrangements? Is there any point at which you would give the poor lady a break? Geez dude, you guys have zero sympathy for a Christian trying to balance her faith and her business. Get over it and leave her be.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:06 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    And if all they wanted to do was pick flowers up at her shop she probably would have had no problem, but to do a wedding you have to go the site and set up the flowers, etc. What if the wedding were at a porn shop, a strip club? What if the wedding was a nude affair? What if they wanted Satanic symbols in the arrangements?

    Had she been doing business with the porn shop owner, strip club owner, nude affair organizer in the past as she had been with the gay guy who wanted flowers for his wedding?

    OH! Had the gay couple picked up their wedding flowers at her shop, THEN it would have been okay with her? That smells to high heaven. Isn't she still "participating" by supplying goods for their happy day, thereby "approving" of their union?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:15 PM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    If she wants to be consistent in her religious principles and convictions, she should NOT be hiring gays or selling anything to them.

    Actually that iisnt true. As a catholic the teaching say to embrace people but there are lines drawn as far as acceptance. If someone were a thief and was reforming then you embrace them. But if they continue to be a thief then you don't embrace them but pray for change. It goes against religious principle to deny someone that is trying to reform or is trying to live up to the faith. There is no prohibition in the catholic church against gays so long as they are non practicing. If they live a celebate life then they walk with god.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:18 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdad View Post
    Actually that iisnt true. As a catholic the teaching say to embrace people but there are lines drawn as far as acceptance. If someone were a thief and was reforming then you embrace them. But if they continue to be a thief then you dont embrace them but pray for change. It goes against religious principle to deny someone that is trying to reform or is trying to live up to the faith. There is no prohibition in the catholic church against gays so long as they are non practicing. If they live a celebate life then they walk with god.

    She knew her gay employees and customers were non-practicing homosexuals?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:24 PM
    cdad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    She knew her gay employees and customers were non-practicing homosexuals?

    I don't know what she knew or didn't know. Do you?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:29 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Had she been doing business with the porn shop owner, strip club owner, nude affair organizer in the past as she had been with the gay guy who wanted flowers for his wedding?

    OH! Had the gay couple picked up their wedding flowers at her shop, THEN it would have been okay with her? That smells to high heaven. Isn't she still "participating" by supplying goods for their happy day, thereby "approving" of their union?

    In other words there is no point at which you would give the lady a break in trying to balance her faith and business and everyone's rights. Correct? I mean it seems clear to me that the only rights you and the lefties want protected are those of the gay couple. Correct?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:32 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    In other words there is no point at which you would give the lady a break in trying to balance her faith and business and everyone's rights. Correct? I mean it seems clear to me that the only rights you and the lefties want protected are those of the gay couple. Correct?

    If she wants to run a business open to the public, she cannot discriminate.

    Does she supply flowers to weddings of interracial couples?
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:40 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    If she wants to run a business open to the public, she cannot discriminate.

    Does she supply flowers to weddings of interracial couples?

    That did not answer my questions.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:43 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    That did not answer my questions.

    If she wants to run a business open to the public, she cannot discriminate.
  • Jun 4, 2013, 02:51 PM
    talaniman
    I would give her the same break she give the gay couple. They exercised their right and sued her for discrimination, and she exercised her rights to counter sue.

    What ever the judge says, he says. That's the breaks. That's the law.

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