Hello again, Steve/tom:
Let me ask you this. If you had your druthers, and abortion was re-classified as premeditated MURDER, who would you put to death - the mother or the doctor?
excon
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Hello again, Steve/tom:
Let me ask you this. If you had your druthers, and abortion was re-classified as premeditated MURDER, who would you put to death - the mother or the doctor?
excon
Still more straw men. When you ask and answer your own questions you come up with the answer you want every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Obviousy you aren't interested in the truth or ending the real war on women.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Once again Kirsten Powers gets it.
Quote:
Abortion Rights Community Has Become the NRA of the Left
Abortion rights advocates have argued that there is nothing to see here. Move along. This is what illegal abortion looks like, they say.
But Gosnell’s clinic was not illegal. It was a licensed medical facility. The state of his clinic was well known: there were repeated complaints to government officials and even the local Planned Parenthood. He wasn’t operating under the radar but in plain sight, and he received referrals from abortion clinics up and down the East Coast. Gosnell performed plenty of abortions within the 24-week limit in Pennsylvania and worked part time for a National Abortion Federation–accredited clinic in Delaware.
The woman Gosnell is on trial for allegedly killing, Karnamaya Mongar, perished during a legal abortion while she was 19 weeks pregnant. Gosnell was not forced to operate in the dark because of anti–abortion rights regulations. It’s the opposite: he was able to flourish—pulling in $1.8 million a year—because multiple abortion rights administrations decided that to inspect his clinic might mean limiting access to abortion. It’s all in the grand jury report, if you don’t believe me.
One of the bodies discovered in the raid of the clinic was of a 22-week-old baby with a surgical incision on the back of her neck, which penetrated the first and second vertebrae. The only thing that would make her death illegal would be if Gosnell failed to finish her off in her mother's womb.
Does that statement make you uncomfortable? Good.
What we need to learn from the Gosnell case is that late-term abortion is infanticide. Legal infanticide. That so many people in the media seem untroubled by the idea that 12 inches in one direction is a “private medical decision” and 12 inches in the other direction causes people to react in horror, should be troubling. Indeed, Gosnell’s defense attorney Jack J. McMahon has relied on the argument that Gosnell killed the babies prior to delivering them, therefore he is not guilty of murder. His exact words were: “Every one of those babies died in utero.”
Gosnell is accused of aborting infants past the 24-week limit in Pennsylvania. But those same deaths – if done in utero – would have been perfectly legal in many states with sometimes abused health exceptions, which can include the elastic category of "mental distress."
The New York Times reported that MacMahon argued: “Because the women were given injections of the drug digoxin, which causes ‘fetal demise,’ any postdelivery movements were involuntary spasms.” The Washington Examiner's Tim Carney, who attended the trial, reported that McMahon argued: “The purpose of the shot...is to kill the baby so that it will not be a live birth.”
We live in a country where if a six-months-pregnant woman started downing shots of vodka in a bar or lit up a cigarette, people might want her arrested. But that same woman could walk into an abortion clinic, no questions asked, and be injected with a drug that would stop her baby’s heart.
I’ll put my cards on the table: I think life begins at conception and would love to live in a world where no women ever felt she needed to get an abortion. However, I know enough people who are pro-abortion rights—indeed, I was one of them for most of my life—to know that reasonable and sincere people can disagree about when meaningful life begins. They also can disagree about how to weigh that moral uncertainty against a woman’s right to control her body—and her own life. I have only ever voted for Democrats, so overturning Roe v. Wade is not one of my priorities. I never want to return to the days of gruesome back-alley abortions.
But medical advances since Roe v. Wade have made it clear to me that late-term abortion is not a moral gray area, and we need to stop pretending it is. No six-months-pregnant woman is picking out names for her “fetus.” It’s a baby. Let’s stop playing Orwellian word games. We are talking about human beings here.
How is this OK? Even liberal Europe gets this. In France, Germany, Italy, and Norway, abortion is illegal after 12 weeks. In addition to the life-of-mother exception, they provide narrow health exceptions that require approval from multiple doctors or in some cases going before a board. In the U.S., if you suggest such stringent regulation and oversight of later-term abortions, you are tarred within seconds by the abortion rights movement as a misogynist who doesn’t “trust women.”
Speaking as a liberal who endorses more government regulation of practically everything—banks, water, air, food, oil drilling, animal safety—I am eternally perplexed by the fury the abortion rights contingent displays at the suggestion that the government might have a serious role to play in the issue of abortion, especially later-term abortion. More and more, the abortion rights community has become the NRA of the left: unleashing their armies of supporters and lobbyists in opposition to regulations or restrictions that the majority of Americans support. In the same way the NRA believes background checks will lead to the government busting down your door to confiscate your guns, the abortion rights movement conjures a straight line from parental consent to a complete ban on abortion.
Such an attitude makes having an honest conversation about abortion almost impossible. That is just one of the many reasons I hate talking about it. Additionally, there is no upside in our media culture to challenging this sacred cow. More likely, there is a price to be paid, which is why so few people take it on. However, I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country’s legally endorsing infanticide.
I simply have to believe we are better than this.
No I'm not done yet and I have no intention of letting this go as long as this inhumanity exists. One of the abortion "heroes" I mentioned earlier, Leroy Carhart - celebrated in film at Sundance - likened the babies he kills to "meat in a crock pot" when Live Action went in to investigate his and other clinics.
But of course this butcher only had the best interest of women at heart...Quote:
He casually described the abortion as a “shot into the fetus” to ensure that “[i]t’ll be dead for two days before you deliver it.” He told her the injection also causes the baby to “[get] soft, like mushy [makes squishing sound], so you push it through… so it’s like putting meat in a crock pot.” If this method is unsuccessful, he would have to remove the baby “in pieces,” using, he joked, “a pickaxe, a drill bit.”
Read the whole thing, besides the butchers themselves it's starting to look more and more like these abortion clinics are staffed by yahoos and not professionals. Where is the OUTRAGE over the INHUMANITY and total lack of regulatory accountability?Quote:
Finally, Carhart blatantly lied to both our investigators about the danger of his abortions, coercing his patients into a risky procedure. “I’ve never had to send anybody to the hospital.” Less than a year before, his staff were forced to call 911 after he injured a woman in an abortion. Our second investigator asked Carhart if she should call an ambulance if she goes into labor in her hotel room. With callous disregard for her safety, Carhart replied, “…don’t call 911… you’re gonna be within 10 minutes or 15 minutes of a clinic, just get in the car. Call me.”
Just six weeks earlier, he had ignored his patient Jennifer Morbelli’s attempts to contact him before she went into cardiac arrest and died at the local hospital. More injuries probably remain undocumented, as Carhart instructs his patients, “If you feel that something is wrong and you need to be seen do not go to the ER, call and we will meet you at the clinic.” He would rather endanger his patients than reveal his malpractice to emergency physicians. Carhart also told our investigator, “[T]he risks at… 36 weeks doing an abortion are still about less than 10% what they are with childbirth.” Actually, abortions after 20 weeks result in 6 times more maternal deaths than childbirth.
Hello again, Steve:
I'm outraged. What do you want from me? You ask about "accountability" as though you expect the police to protect us from EVERYTHING. It'd be nice.Quote:
Where is the OUTRAGE over the INHUMANITY and total lack of regulatory accountability?
Excon
"Abortion Rights Community has become the NRA of the Left"Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Why on earth would anyone choose this heading? Wouldn't you avoid such a comparison at all costs?
You guys have made regulation and accountability a bad word in an effort to blame everyone but yourselves for the sad mess we are in. Even when we join you in your outrage you still only talk of OUR accountability, and nit pick very conveniently only what bolsters your own opinion.
Not a way to get solutions based on facts and not bias.
It was a liberal that made the comparison and I thought it was appropriate and a welcome admission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
It was you who doubted regulators looked the other way while this butchery was taking place. Well sir, they've been doing so time and again so who is going to protect these women? I want some freakin' heads to roll in these regulatory agencies, our women and children deserve better.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Bullsh*t Tal, that narrative is entirely a construct of the left. Do you honestly believe we don't expect standards for food, health care and such? Get real and end this charade, or do you honestly believe it?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The only nitpicking in this thread is by you and ex, the outrage over this and demand for accountability SHOULD be unanimous, but what you're doing is proving the point that the institution of abortion is more important to the "pro-choice" crowd than the actual lives affected.Quote:
Even when we join you in your outrage you still only talk of OUR accountability, and nit pick very conveniently only what bolsters your own opinion.
Not a way to get solutions based on facts and not bias.
The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination. This thread is a perfect example that even though the outrage is unanimous, you still aren't satisfied.
I see. Perhaps it is best if we can let sleeping dogs lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I'm hoping to finally have an HONEST conversation about the issue but based on your comments - this last one included - that's apparently not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
No, it's time to wake the dog up and have an honest discussion. Kirsten Powers should be applauded for doing just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
Not as long as you don't recognize everyone agrees with you that the law failed, and let this monster kill people. Left, right, pro choice, pro life. WE ALL AGREE. You should be happier than a squirrel in a nut factory.
Now what?
Not as long as you don't recognize everyone agrees with you that the law failed, and let this monster kill people. Left, right, pro choice, pro life. WE ALL AGREE. You should be happier than a squirrel in a nut factory.Quote:
I'm hoping to finally have an HONEST conversation about the issue but based on your comments - this last one included - that's apparently not going to happen.
Now what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I'll go along with that, but I was captured by the irony of the heading. That's all.
Your last words, "The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination."Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That, sir is dishonest.
This goes beyond the regulatory failures and these particular butchers, which we may agree on, though if I ex ever changed his mind about doubting there were INTENTIONAL failures I don't recall it.
We need to have an honest conversation about life, humanity, women's health PLUS the institutional failures by the gods of abortion themselves.
As Kirsten said, "I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country’s legally endorsing infanticide."
Can you remain silent about it?
It wasn't irony, it was a mirror held up to the abortion absolutists for them to gaze in and see they've become that which they despise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
I think the problem so far is that there has been recent conflating of the term 'legal'. There are two types of 'legal' that need to be addressed separately.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
(a) There is the legal issue when it comes to the law and abortion. In other words ,what does the law say about the time whereby abortion is regarded as being within the law.
(b) There is also the legal issue when it comes to requirements of standards and professionalism as outlined in the various regulation acts.
What we have here are abortionists who are illegal in every way. In other words, illegal in terms of (a) and (b).
(b) is probably not in dispute by anyone. Dangerous standards of health care need to be weeded out and prosecuted- regardless of the type of health care being offered.
What is in dispute is (a). It is possible to satisfy the requirements of both (a) and (b) at the same time in terms of legality.
In order for an honest debate to take place in this thread one now needs to come up with some type of definitive answer to (a).
There can never be an honest discussion of (a) as long as the abortion absolutists remain in denial about the humanity of the child and (c), the intentional disregard of (a) by those responsible for enforcing (a).
So how would you define the humanity of the child in terms of (a)?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I am pretty much an absolutist in terms of (a). Humanity beings not long after conception.
I don't believe the humanity of the child will ever be codified, that part will require a change of heart. But, this is one of those rare times we should follow Europe's lead as mentioned in an earlier post and end these late term abortions. If Gosnell hasn't shown these are children and not meaningless blobs of flesh I don't know what will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Yes, I am a bit of a realist and a negotiator when it comes to most things. If someone says 24 weeks I say 8. Then I would settler for 14
A child can survive a 2nd trimester abortion (which also requires extinguising the life ,the dismemberment of limbs for the extraction ).As the medicine advances ,the age of viability (if that is the standard )will be younger.Viability is in itself a troubling standard because why is it not also applied to a human outside the womb ?
I think part of the problem is that technology has made it possible for a reasonable change of survival at 24 weeks. Prior to this I would imagine that 24 weeks represented very little chance of survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I didn't realize this. Apparently in Australia, Victoria is the only state where abortion is legal upon demand.
I am a realist also, and we do have the technology in medicine to prevent making the choice to abort or not abort. It starts with a doctor of your choice though, and some informed responsible decision making as soon as possible. By man, and woman.
If you want people to be responsible, they have to have the tools, and how to use them.
Wasn't sure where to post this ,so this Op is as good as any..
The White House is celebrating Mother's Day by pointing out how many women will not be mothers .
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ACA&src=hashQuote:
The White House @whitehouse 10 May
Thanks to the #ACA, 1 in 3 women under 65 gained access to preventive care—like birth control—with no out-of-pocket costs. #HappyMothersDay
You rail against the lazy baturds that take free stuff, then you rail against them having more lazy baturds who want free stuff. Then you holler greedy is good.
Geez!!
Yeah Happy Mother's Day . Kill your baby... free of charge .
You just don't think we should holler at all Tal. Personally I think having to defend all the indefensible crap from this admin is wearing on you. I mean come on, Mother's day is not for Zero to pat himself on the back for preventing the birth of more mothers.
All good questions, do something about it
Breaking news... He was found Guilty of three of the four First Degree murder charges as well as an infanticide charge... more than enough to get the death penalty. Something they very much deserve.
Hope the monster in Cleveland gets the same thing.
PP offered a typical reaction, no mention of the murdered babies, I guess they aren't victims of his butcher shop - just "let's make sure abortion is safe" and this:
P.S. NARAL's response to the verdict was just as appalling, "Kermit Gosnell has been found guilty and will get what he deserves. Now, let’s make sure these women are vindicated by delivering what all women deserve: access to the full range of health services including safe, high-quality and legal abortion care."
REALLY?? He is GUILTY of 1st degree MURDER of 3 BABIES!!
What about the CHILDREN, you jerks??
And you thought this Gosnell thing was going away, but no I have no intentions of watching it get swept under the rug or lost in the Twitter cycle. So how many more Gosnells do we have and does anyone care, especially among those who should be regulating abortion clinics and PROTECTING women from butchers? Apparently no one cares in Minnesota, where you can get an abortion at any time up to birth.
There are no regulations to protect the lives and health of women in Minnesota, they leave it up to a "trade association" to police clinics.
.Quote:
It’s horrifying to think that the clinic’s conditions were allowed to lead to a woman’s death in a state that had regulations. But what if it happened here?
Minnesota offers no regulations to protect the health and safety of women seeking abortions. In 1974, the Legislature passed a law (which is still on the books) requiring the health commissioner to license and promulgate rules for abortion clinics. The commissioner adopted clinic regulations in 1974, but a federal district court struck them down.
The Legislature attempted to remedy this dangerous omission by passing a clinic regulations bill in 2012, but Gov. Dayton vetoed the bill. He claimed the regulations were unnecessary because Minnesota clinics are adequately monitored by the National Abortion Federation, a national trade association of abortion clinics.
With no time limits on abortion and no regulation of the clinics, how would we even know if practices like those of Dr. Gosnell are happening in Minnesota? Women and children deserve better.
Leaving aside the unsettling notion of an abortion "trade association", an abortion is a medical procedure. Having a wart frozen off is regulated more heavily than abortions, it's "surgery." So tell me, how can any reasonable person not require standards to protect the lives and health of women, not to mention the child that survives for such medical procedures??
How many times have we read here someone throwing a fit at the idea of a physician "forcing a probe" up a woman's vagina before she can have an abortion? Why are you not even more aghast at not only the failure, but as in the case of Minnesota and Pennsylvania the REFUSAL to protect women?Quote:
Induced labor: Medication is administered to the pregnant woman which triggers labor. The woman eventually gives birth to the partly developed fetus.
"D&E" (dilation and evacuation). The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman's vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the fetus at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the fetus are suctioned from the uterus. 1
"D&X" (dilation and extraction) The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body. 2
Write your congressman and tell Issa to start an investigation since they are charged with oversight.
Make up your mind whether you want to fund regulators, or defund them.
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