Ask Me Help Desk - The Taxers

Tut, reading people like Addams gives me a headache... but I again stand by my quote.

It's from "Democracy and Social Ethics" in the chapter titled "Political Reform" in which you also find quotes such as this:

Quote:

Upon this foundation it ought not to be difficult to build a structure of civic virtue. It is only necessary to make it clear to the voter that his individual needs are common needs that is public needs and that they can only be legitimately supplied for him when they are supplied for all. If we believe that the individual struggle for life may widen into a struggle for the lives of all surely the demand of an individual for decency and comfort for a chance to work and obtain the fulness of life may be widened until it gradually embraces all the members of the community and rises into a sense of the common weal.

I see nothing in what I've read that hints at anything about "women partaking in charity work during this time period, to develop the moral character of the poor." Addams is pushing the same progressive, collectivist philosophy as our president.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Tut, reading people like Addams gives me a headache...but I again stand by my quote.

It's from "Democracy and Social Ethics" in the chapter titled "Political Reform" in which you also find quotes such as this:

This chapter is about political corruption by officials who see themselves as outside of the life of the people they serve. She is talking about specific examples she has encountered while she was administering to the poor. It is the corrupt official that attracts the votes of the middle class. It is the middle class people and the corrupt politicians who are exhibiting a collective unity. They posses both a collective unity and a sense of individuality; something the poor lack. In other words the poor see themselves as alienated from this process. She believes that the answer lies in the ability of the poor to become part of that wider system. This can be achieved by them developing a collective identity. It is this collective identity that will eventually allow for a genuine social cohesion. Hence the quotes you give.

That's how I read it. Do you read the chapter differently?

Tut

Ok Tut, in the wider context a fair enough interpretation. It really changes nothing in my use of the two quotes, it still fits perfectly in my opinion as part of what shaped Obama's worldview and led to his "you didn't build that" speech. He just failed to present it in the progressive code words that mask his ideology.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Ok Tut, in the wider context a fair enough interpretation. It really changes nothing in my use of the two quotes, it still fits perfectly in my opinion as part of what shaped Obama's worldview and led to his "you didn't build that" speech. He just failed to present it in the progressive code words that mask his ideology.

With all due respects it is not really up to you to decide the best way to use other people's quotes.
Provided we are talking about fairness to the individuals involved. That is, if we try and give an accurate account of their position.

The whole idea of quoting out of context is to make the quotes fit into what you really want these people to say. Your first signature quote would indeed achieve that end.

Tut

With all due respect I believe it is Obama that has twisted Addams' philosophy to suit his agenda. I'm just pointing out his unintentional candor.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

With all due respect I believe it is Obama that has twisted Addams' philosophy to suit his agenda. I'm just pointing out his unintentional candor.

Hello again, Steve:

It's time to bring you back to Earth. Although you've never said it out loud, I believe you've bought the Tea Party "agenda" fully and absolutely.. Although you don't use the words, and you even objected when I thought you did, but you clearly think Obama is a commie. Ok, maybe just a socialist/collectivist..

But, it's as much nonsense as your belief that since Obama only passed ONE gun law, and that was to STRENGTHEN gun rights, he ABSOLUTELY wants to confiscate ALL your guns... You believe it, hook, line and sinker.

Here's how I know that.. I've been watching Obama pretty carefully, too. What I've noticed, is that I'm to the LEFT of him on a WIDE variety of issues. That would be a WIDE variety... You'd THINK, therefore, that I'd BE a screaming commie "collectivist" (your word... But, of course, I'm NOT. I'm a LIBERAL CAPITALIST - a STAUNCH liberal capitalist. I must say, that I'm quite a STAUNCH Constitutionalist, too. No?

How can that be?

excon

Funny how I get taken to task by Tut for his objection to using a quote that does fall in line with Obama's philosophy, but you can just flat out LIE about my beliefs without a shred of evidence and you get a pass.

But hey, now I can see why Harry Reid's rumor mongering is no biggie to you, it's one of your favorite tactics.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Funny how I get taken to task by Tut for his objection to using a quote that does fall in line with Obama's philosophy, but you can just flat out LIE about my beliefs without a shred of evidence and you get a pass.

But hey, now I can see why Harry Reid's rumor mongering is no biggie to you, it's one of your favorite tactics.

I am not objecting to you using the ideas behind the quote. The ideas may well fit into line with Obama's philosophy.

I am not taking sides on this issue. I am objecting to taking quotes out of context.

Tut

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

I am not objecting to you using the ideas behind the quote. The ideas may well fit into line with Obama's philosophy.

I am not taking sides on this issue. I am objecting to taking quotes out of context.

Tut

As do I... IF it's used as a blatant misrepresentation. I don't believe I've done that.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

As do I...IF it's used as a blatant misrepresentation. I don't believe I've done that.

I'm not saying that you blatantly misrepresented Addams' quote. Perhaps a different quote from a different source?

I assume by the Obama quote:

"You didn't build that..."

You are saying that Obama is against individuality. Obama has this philosophy whereby he thinks that as far as individuals are concerned we are incapable or unable to doing anything worthwhile or creative without the government dictating our every move. He wants the government to be involved in all aspects of our lives.

If you are saying this then I am not necessarily disputing it.

What I am really interested in is how can Chapter 7 of Addams' Democracy and Social Ethics ( where the quotes you supplied were taken from) is even remotely compatible with the Obama quote?

Tut

Tut, did you stop to think that perhaps Obama and his progressive influences and cohorts are the ones who have expanded on and taken Addams beyond what was intended?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Tut, did you stop to think that perhaps Obama and his progressive influences and cohorts are the ones who have expanded on and taken Addams beyond what was intended?

Hello again, Steve:

I haven't bothered too much with this philosophical conversation, because I'm not real philosophical.. You took offense, Steve, at my suggestion that you think Obama is a (collectivist, socialist, Communist, Marxist, pinko), take your pick... But, your post above indicates that you think exactly that, even if you don't want to give it a label.

I'm going to ask you again, to explain ME. I'm to the LEFT of Obama on many, many MAJOR issues.. Yet, I remain a staunch capitalist. Yes, you and I differ on HOW the pie is to be divided, but there's NO doubt where the pie comes from, and there's NO Democrat out there saying otherwise..

You appear to be suggesting that Obama thinks the pie comes from government. That's like saying that Obama, and his "progressive friends and cohorts", (which WOULD include me) thinks that cars run on fairy dust.

I FOUGHT a war against communism... To even remotely hint that MY politics might tinge on it, is HIGHLY offensive.

excon

What I objected to was this unfounded allegation, "Although you've never said it out loud, I believe you've bought the Tea Party "agenda" fully and absolutely.."

I don't even know what the Tea Party "agenda" is beyond limited government and yes I fully buy into that, but you know me better than to paint me as a right-wing zealot.

I assume you base this solely on one remark on the Cruz thread, "we're ready for some real hopenchange. Perry is next."

Well sir, it's no secret here that I'm no Perry fan and that was before the Tea Party came into existence. Dewhurst may be OK but he's another establishment guy. Cruz is not, and we need people to shake things up in congress instead of business as usual. You object to that because he's more conservative than his predecessor, KBH. That's why we voted for him, we don't need another KBH.

I haven't made it any secret that I see Obama as a collectivist, it's not hard to see since he's as much as said so. He makes no secret of his desire to redistribute wealth and credit government as the grand benefactor. He said it with Julia and he's now said it about business. He said it with Obamacare, he said with his ridiculous budgets, gutting welfare reform, the contraception mandate and on and on. You can't deny it. Well you can, but it would devoid of reality.

LOL, who the hell makes a political career on what some dame said decades ago? It doesn't matter what she said. Heck, a lot of people might have agreed with her, but some don't. Who cares and why is it relevant?

We all have opinions, so quoting past people is their opinion, and it may not be as wrong as yours, or mine. Hell its only an opinion what she was trying to say! Just like you quoting Obama, and giving your opinion, some agree, I don't. Difference is he has come out and said you guys were blowing smoke about what he said and meant. She can't! The press has run the whole quote, and you guys just seem to be wrong, but that's just MY opinion.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

LOL, who the hell makes a political career on what some dame said decades ago?

So today's progressives had no past influences in the development of their ideology today? They got their on their own?? Bwa ha ha!!

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So today's progressives had no past influences in the development of their ideology today?

They might but they adapt to the current situations and new technology and new knowledge. This isn't the horse and buggy era any more, no matter how much you wish to return to those days. Being regressive has its downsides.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

They might but they adapt to the current situations and new technology and new knowledge. This isn't the horse and buggy era any more, no matter how much you wish to return to those days. Being regressive has its downsides.

You really ought to try and play nice for once. But then again if you insist on looking like an a$$ that's up to you.

I mean how pathetic is it to insult me as being "regressive" and that "This isn't the horse and buggy era any more"? Did I just respond to you via Pony Express or the internet?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So today's progressives had no past influences in the development of their ideology today? They got their on their own??? Bwa ha ha!!!

Hello again, Steve:

I wasn't lying above.. The reason I didn't discuss political philosophy with you is because I am bereft of a philosophy and/or what influenced it. Now, I'm sure you'll CALL it an ideology, and perhaps you can explain HOW I got it, philosophically.

But, my political upbringing was a lot simpler than that... I read the Constitution. I read the Bill of Rights. I understood them. Good thing they didn't use big words, too. I was stationed IN the south in the early 60's. I SAW, with my own eyes, that the freedoms I enjoyed were DENIED to others. So, I set about fixing that, and I haven't stopped. THAT is my political education.. I don't know who that woman is, what she wrote, and I don't care.

What surprised me in my endeavor, is that there were actually people who OBJECTED to spreading the freedom around, and they belonged to YOUR party.. Nothing has changed. To this day, I'm STILL blown away by it.

Therefore, in my view, it's YOU who has the ideology - not me.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So today's progressives had no past influences in the development of their ideology today? They got their on their own?? Bwa ha ha!!

Progressives see the past, learn from and correct mistakes, and adapt to the changed conditions to move forward. We also recognize the need to drag you guys with us, because moving forward is hardly an easy thing for you righties.

To be honest, you guys are heavy, and loud. But we love you!

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I haven't made it any secret that I see Obama as a collectivist, it's not hard to see since he's as much as said so.

He is supposed to be a collectivist, he is the president of a country, a nation, and everybody should have the same chance to succeed, not just rich guys who steal money through taxes and loopholes they created for themselves to maximize extracting YOUR wealth. And pay NO taxes.

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He makes no secret of his desire to redistribute wealth and credit government as the grand benefactor.

In a fair way so we all have a chance to thrive and survive, even through a recession.

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He said it with Julia

What’s wrong with making a woman’s right to succeed a priority? She is part of the government’s obligation to provide for the general welfare isn’t she?

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and he's now said it about business.

He said business should have rules and regulations and be responsible for their mistakes. And pay fair taxes. They make money in this country don’t they?

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He said it with Obamacare,

Yes he did, and even republican voters like it so far.

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he said with his ridiculous budgets,

Well he had to pay for the other guy’s wars, and off the books knick knacks, and a recession/robbery. And all those tax cuts for the rich guys. I bet your budget would look funky too!

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gutting welfare reform,

That’s a blatant lie, told by those who depend on your ignorance to believe it, because they are to dumb to look up the facts. They LIE! But what do we call the ones who repeat the lie? Misinformed is a nice word... for NOW!

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the contraception mandate and on and on.

Only applies to businesses, and insurance companies. AND woman of all ages who need it. That’s a good thing, but that’s just my opinion, of course you are as entitled to yours as I a mine. That’s the AMERICA way.

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You can't deny it. Well you can, but it would devoid of reality.

Why should I deny the good things this president has done so far? That’s my reality, and it’s about time. It’s also my reality and my opinion, that Romney and the right wing, IS the problem, not government, even though they could do better.

Keep on crying... and lyin'... its your right as an American.

Hello Tal:

You da MAN!

excon

Thanks, Ex, Takes a village to raise these righties.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

...and that "This isn't the horse and buggy era any more"? .

You're the one who quotes Addams [Jane Addams (September 6, 1860 – May 21, 1935)]. That's what I was referring to. I accept your apology.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You're the one who quotes Addams [Jane Addams (September 6, 1860 – May 21, 1935)]. That's what I was referring to. I accept your apology.

I quote Jesus sometimes, too. Obama quotes Lincoln. So what. I won't apologize for you insulting me.

But you are regressive! LOL.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

But you are regressive! LOL.

Still insisting on the personal insults. Keep it up, I really don't care if you enjoy looking like an a$$.

Hello again,

I have power. I'd LOVE to use it... It's the ONLY place in my life where I have any..

Look. What's remarkable is that we've been able to keep this conversation alive for YEARS! Yes, it gets heated. It SHOULD. Yes, sometimes words slip out... But, I don't believe ANY of it is personal...

So, STOP the snarkness, or I'll USE my power.

excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Still insisting on the personal insults. Keep it up, I really don't care if you enjoy looking like an a$$.

I meant the GOP of course.

Uh huh.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Tut, did you stop to think that perhaps Obama and his progressive influences and cohorts are the ones who have expanded on and taken Addams beyond what was intended?

To answer your question

Yes, I did think about it. In fact I said on a couple of occasions that Obama may well be a collectivist.

Perhaps I could try my question again??

How is Addam's supporting Obama's contention that:

"You didn't build that..."

Tut

P.S. Sorry, but I just have this dislike for quotes out of context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

LOL, who the hell makes a political career on what some dame said decades ago? It doesn't matter what she said. Heck, a lot of people might have agreed with her, but some don't. Who cares and why is it relevant?

It actually matters a lot for a number of reasons.

When misquoting it is always useful to pick someone who is an authority on a particular issue. This way it has more of a chance to mislead the reader.

It seems to be a favourite pastime of people who set up websites with a particular political perspective. A lot of times they are links that are provided in this forum as some type of evidence. It is not evidence of any type.

People such as Addams have contributed to our store of knowledge. Knowledge is a accumulative process. The only way it can accumulate is when we acknowledge a persons position on certain issues and then build our own theories based on the stated understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

We all have opinions, so quoting past people is their opinion, and it may not be as wrong as yours, or mine. Hell its only an opinion what she was trying to say! Just like you quoting Obama, and giving your opinion, some agree, I don't. Difference is he has come out and said you guys were blowing smoke about what he said and meant. She can't! The press has run the whole quote, and you guys just seem to be wrong, but thats just MY opinion.

Well actually she can because I would defend Addams position in relation to the whole, not building it yourself thing. Doesn't really matter who says it so long as it is said right.

Tut

This thread has degenerated into he said she said

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

It actually matters a lot for a number of reasons.

When misquoting it is always useful to pick someone who is an authority on a particular issue. This way it has more of a chance to mislead the reader.

It seems to be a favourite pastime of people who set up websites with a particular political perspective. A lot of times they are links that are provided in this forum as some type of evidence. It is not evidence of any type.

People such as Addams have contributed to our store of knowledge. Knowledge is a accumulative process. The only way it can accumulate is when we acknowledge a persons position on certain issues and then build our own theories based on the stated understanding.

Well actually she can because I would defend Addams position in relation to the whole, not building it yourself thing. Doesn't really matter who says it so long as it is said right.

Tut

I can get with what you are saying, but its so hard to be objective when you have part of the truth, no context, or worse intentional misleading or a hidden agenda. Its really hard to breakdown a complex issue with simple facts.

Hard to connect dots with out ALL the dots, or the context of how they fit. Even with a manual, a guide, like the Constitution, we still have many ways to interpret what is written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

To answer your question

Yes, I did think about it. In fact I said on a couple of occasions that Obama may well be a collectivist.

Perhaps I could try my question again???

How is Addam's supporting Obama's contention that:

"You didn't build that..."

Tut

P.S. Sorry, but I just have this dislike for quotes out of context.

I don't know that Addams is supporting Obama's contention or not, I'm saying Obama cherry picks from the "store of knowledge" to justify his policies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talaniman

I can get with what you are saying, but its so hard to be objective when you have part of the truth, no context, or worse intentional misleading or a hidden agenda. Its really hard to breakdown a complex issue with simple facts.

Actually the problem here for you guys is Obama was honest instead of veiling his intent with the usual code words.

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Hard to connect dots with out ALL the dots, or the context of how they fit. Even with a manual, a guide, like the Constitution, we still have many ways to interpret what is written.

Like this "wall of separation" thing (which isn't even in the constitution) your side uses to say God is banned from government, but ignores when it comes to forcing the church to violate her conscience?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Like this "wall of separation" thing (which isn't even in the constitution) your side uses to say God is banned from government, but ignores when it comes to forcing the church to violate her conscience?

Not applicable to churches, only to companies.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Not applicable to churches, only to companies.

The same old lie that's been repeated here ad nauseum. Catholic Charities is not a business.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The same old lie that's been repeated here ad nauseum. Catholic Charities is not a business.

How does it affect them if they are doing charity work and not offering insurance?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I don't know that Addams is supporting Obama's contention or not, I'm saying Obama cherry picks from the "store of knowledge" to justify his policies.

Would you consider removing or changing your first signature quote?

The two quotes are not compatible. It is somewhat misleading.

Tut

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

Would you consider removing or changing your first signature quote?

The two quotes are not compatible. It is somewhat misleading.

Tut

We have a pac blaming a guy for the death of a woman where none of the facts add up and a campaign outright lying about what they knew, but you and ex are more concerned about my signature because it may be "somewhat misleading"??

Really??

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

really???

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attach...ondi-raped.jpg

:-)