Its not a matter of them exploiting workers in the new plant, not at all. Its if they exploit the workers in the old plant, is what the lawsuit is about.
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Its not a matter of them exploiting workers in the new plant, not at all. Its if they exploit the workers in the old plant, is what the lawsuit is about.
Then Steve is right... the case is baseless.
That's what judges are for right? To consider the merits of a case based on the facts, and the rule of law? Not some idealogical feelings?
You and Steve make lousy judges wouldn't you? Wonder what those workers would feel like when the old plant closes and the new one picks up more contracts, and what the new plant will be like, when they close that one, and move to India, South America, or Europe, where the rest of there corporation is?
Can't happen huh? Wrong! It has already, and been happening for decades. But you love that free market don't you?? Seen the economy lately, the global economy?? That's a direct result of the free market gone wild.
Hope the workers don't get thrown to the mercy of those "activist" judges repubs warn us about! That's another "Current Event" though.
You apparently don't like win-win either. And funny they Texas, a right-to-work state as you know, has created more jobs than most states out together. That's the free market. Oh, and Boeing has facilities here as well and they still added jobs in Washington.
If they prevent Boeing from opening a domestic plant they surely will move overseas .Yes I like the free market a lot ;and I'm sure you don't mind all the foreign companies who have opened shop here and employ American workers .
What you forget is that the free market is a 2 way street . Foreign owned companies account for the hiring of millions of American workers and servicing their operations multitudes more. Whole communities have been revived with foreign investment here .
But re-live the mistakes of the 1930s .We are well on our way .
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
May I remind you that Boeing is adding jobs because they got an ORDER - NOT because "uncertainty" has been eliminated.
excon
Without demand there is no free market, and the mistakes of the 30's was/is the same as now, repubs watering down job growth policies and trying to let the free market do its will.
As to the state I love, and live in Texas, there are more poor people here than in any other part of the country, and true, what's left of corporations that make stuff here are flocking to Texas, and other right to work states for what they always crave, cheap labor, low wages, and no worry about labor problems or raises for decades.
List of the poorest places in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While its true there are jobs being created, and so many companies here to create them, lets see how they fare in a few years when bread goes up, and the price of gas and doctors, but wages have not! And while we are on Texas still, its no coincidence that the new jobs here are health care, energy, and road construction, your failed stimulus, and student loans, and grants driven by your democratic President.
Just ask the Mexicans about what happened to them when US companies built 4,000 plants just south of the border and gave them jobs, and see where they ended up.
The free market is not the friend of the common man, never has been, so lets not pretend they have the final solution if you pander to them, and let them be free to do whatever they please because they know an honest man must work to eat.
If they were as fair as you say, you wouldn't need a union. But you will see that in the right to work states, when they don't give you raises, insurance, or some family time, then lay you off for easier pickings in India, or Alabama. Or replace you arbitrarily, for the dufus kid whose dad is the boss, and he needs gas money for his porch before he goes off to college.
You'll see all that and more, unless repubs get out of the way of honest, hard working,
People just wanting a good life.
End of another rant. Sorry guys, I guess I am as passionate as you guys are about what you believe.
Im just not understanding the rant here. In the article you had sited it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
"The complaint seeks a court order forcing Boeing to establish the second 787 line in Everett, Wash., the unionized home of the company's commercial airplane business."
And when your talking of poor states according to some as far as the newer numbers the poorest state is Missippi.
Here is a list with newer dates the wiki:
The Poorest States In The U.S. (PHOTOS)
The union is contending the decision for the new plant was a reaction to the contentious nature of the company and union, going back decades.
Just some background,
Feud over nonunion Boeing plant crosses state, party lines | McClatchy
If you want more background follow what happened to steel companies decades ago as they built newer plants and entire towns turned to dust.
What happened to the steel industry in the 70's is being repeated with the - Democratic Underground
That's why I rant, because I know what happens when a company moves, modernizes, and does what it can for the cheapest labor they can get. People get screwed, towns disappear.
First it was immigrants, then middle class workers who were children of immigrants, then third world workers, who's next? Wait a few years when the contracts have been filled, and the layoffs start, they always do.
That's why I rant, (or maybe I love debating my right wing pro corporations buddies, I have a few)
So you would lock a company into the town without the choice of relocation ? Yeah it sucks when companies move or industry changes . But that's the way it is . Cities like Pittsburg reinvent themselves when the steel industry moves on . Long Island NY was once heavily dependent on the Aerospace industry too.But Grumman is not the employer it once was ;it moved some jobs out ;got merged with Northrop . The Island diversified ,created smaller business hubs and the small businesses grew and replaced Grumman as the dominant employer . It can be done . The only thing constant in business is change.Quote:
People get screwed, towns disappear.
Duh. And may I remind you that Obama wants to crush those 1000 jobs in SC because he's a union-minded thug, not because Boeing has done anything wrong. And he will unnecessarily cost untold millions of taxpayer dollars persecuting Boeing to cater to his union cronies and untold millions to Boeing to defend themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Apparently not. You can't get there by the fact that a couple of colonias appear at the top of your list. In fact, you wiki lists Texas 32nd by state.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That's my point Steve, we can brag about the good that's going on, but fact remains, we haven't done enough. But I guess the people who live in the Texas dirt, with no real name for the dirt, don't count as people. Interesting, just as being 32 out of 50 is a bragging point.
Just like being 5th out of 5 fantasy teams, more work to do, but nothing to brag about... YET!
32nd out of 50 is a heckuva lot better than "more poor people here than in any other part of the country." And of course having 1200 miles of border with Mexico makes a difference in the rankings.
Poor in Texas is a thousand percent better than poor in Mexico, a non-union job in SC is a thousand percent better than no job at all, and my fantasy baseball team just rolls along in first.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I'd also like to point out that the last time I checked (which was, granted, a couple years ago), TX was 49th of 50 in education. There's definitely a relationship between education levels and employability.
Why be satisfied with putting a band aid on a gun shot wound? (giving the job creators even more money, when they have it all already)! Why didn't Boeing just expand where they were?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
A non-union job in SC is a thousand percent better than no job at all, and my fantasy baseball team just rolls along in first.
You are having a great season so far, but its not over yet. Are we going to have a fantasy football league? Count me in.
Why can't they expand elsewhere, too, especially if they're still adding jobs in Everett?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
We started one a few years back but only had a couple of takers and that league is full. If those two are are willing and/or we can round up a few more I'm in. I always play several leagues.Quote:
You are having a great season so far, but its not over yet. Are we going to have a fantasy football league? Count me in.
Really ? Have we become so totalitarian that we can dictate to a business must that they must stay in a geographic region ;that no other state can benefit from a business relationship with them ? They may have plenty of reasons beyond screwing the employee to open a new plant somewhere else. I knew people on Long Island who routinely travelled between Grumman plants in NY ;Fla ,California ,Tx ,AND OMG overseas . So what ?
Frankly, if you'd ever SEEN the Everett plant, you might have an idea of why expanding there just isn't feasible.
The plant is so huge that employees have shifts in 6 minute increments otherwise the shifts would be insane for parking, entering, and leaving. And there's no ROOM to create more working space there---they could expand to another place in WA, but why bother if they have a chance to do it more economically someplace else?
PS--Boeing has plants all over the damned place. Some of it has to do with where they are delivering final projects, because their number one customer is still the US government.
Funny how they never bring that up, about the space, but I have to wait and see if they do indeed pay less or have less benefits, and I doubt they would be that blatant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
And lets be clear, I am not against big business, just big business exploiting workers without which, they can't make a dime. No lawsuit will stop the plant, but they will get some clarity on work rules, and business practices.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/tou...4532-14_lg.jpg
One PART of the Everett plant.
A better image: Google Images
And... as seen from space: Redirect Notice
Notice the urban sprawl around it. The entire Seattle area is very squished because of Lake Washington, Puget Sound and the mountains around it.
There is literally no place to grow.
PS--the Everett plant is the largest building in the world by volume.
Just a note, over half of all jobs created in the U.S. in the last two years were in Texas, 262,000 jobs for a 2.9 percent increase. The president's home state added 33,900 jobs, a 0.6 percent gain.
In the last 10 years, 732,000 jobs were added in Texas - nearly 8 times more than the next best state. Arizona was second with 92,000.
I can't wait to see Obama challenge Rick Perry on jobs "saved or created."
Me either since Texas had high unemployment, before the recession, and high uninsured and all those jobs created or saved still hasn't changed that fact. I find that strange indeed, almost as strange as when Bush ran for president after he was Governor
Calculated Risk: State Unemployment Rates "little changed" in June,
48% of post-recession jobs were created in Texas, which does not have a State Income Tax - The European CourierThe European Courier
Read more: Story of Texas job growth not that simple | Mitchell Schnurman | Dallas Business, Texas ...Quote:
It attributed Texas' success to rejecting the model that prevails in Washington, described as pushing for more unions, more central planning and higher taxes. The editorial didn't mention the impact from rising energy prices.
On Monday, Fisher spoke to Diane Rehm on National Public Radio, reiterating the same themes. He acknowledged that Texas has drawbacks, including poor social services and poor results in education.
"But something is working here, and what seems to be working here is job creation," Fisher said.
One word for you, OIL. Another word for you, "stimulus spending from Washington.
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act: Texas Stimulus Impact
Stimulus spending in Texas city paves roads, finances clinics and more
Texas Watchdog's roadmap of TxDOT's stimulus spending | Texas Watchdog
Forget Perry, Texas does have a good legislature, mostly. Perry tries to take credit.
Here is another one for your sacred job creators. As a result of congress failing to reauthorize the FAA, 4000 workers were furloughed, and another 90,000 construction jobs are on hold.
No end in sight for FAA shutdown - politics - msnbc.com
More airlines raise fares to grab tax savings - Travel - News - msnbc.com
Partial FAA shutdown drags into fourth day - CNN.com
Seems the airline rather have the cash than create or save jobs, or pass the cash from no taxes being collect to the comsumers. So much for repubs worried about debts and deficits, but you have to admit, they are GREAT at creating them.
So now you think it is a race to create the biggest deficit. I am reminded that while Nero fiddled Rome burned and this is playing out again, as a rating agency has down graded the US rating. Some may not know what this means other than higher interest rates, but it means that other organisations, states or local government may also have an immediate down grading as no one can have a higher rating than the soveriegn debt of their nation. It is a ripple down effect.http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video....cnn?hpt=hp_t1
The US government, whether it be President or legislature, is gambling with the futures of the US people. If the goal is to deepen a depression then they will succeed. They are also gambling with the futures of other nations which may hold US securities. This is totally irresponsible
I agree Clete, but you have to understand that people make money off the misery, and irresponsibility of others. It's a booming business. Ask any banker, and consider what they made of this crisis in the first place.
When bad behavior is rewarded, you get more of it. So expect more.
People might make money this way Tal but it should not be a gaol to cause misery or perpetuate it. I liked your point about Texas job creation, something is working there, could be low wages, could be determination, might be more efficient use of funds. Bankers are like governments, there should be greater use of the firing squad, so that the mediocre suffer early retirement instead of being recycledQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
LOL, actually Texas is not that unique. The unemployment rate in some areas was high before the recession. The mainstream media just never reported it. Poor people know nothing but recession/depression most of their lives, but who cares when you don't see them. The current budget crisis, only distracts us, and keeps us hot and bothered about the wrong thing. More stealing? Greedy people NEVER get enough, so they come back for more.
Yes Tal and they don't like being taxed. There are a number of things that are not news unless it is election time and that is poverty, unemployment and disadvantage. The rich don't like giving to the poor unless their name is on it and there might be a tax advantage in it, this is why they are against government programs, The rich will always point to how generous they are but ask them to contribute the same amount in taxQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Here'a another one for you Tal, Obama's buddy is moving the GE x-ray division to China. Time to sic the NLRB on 'em...
You know---I DO have to point out that SOME of the issue is how picky people are being about working.
In the Great Depression, you WORKED--wherever you could, whatever it paid. Some businesses (small and medium sized) simply CANNOT afford to pay more than what they already are. But people are milking unemployment instead of working a job that is "beneath" them. There are also a lot of people who are capable of working who are instead milking the welfare system.
No wonder companies move to other countries, where they don't have to pay as much because people don't feel "entitled" to tons of benefits and high wages.
Maybe if I didn't see "help wanted" signs every single day in places like Burger King, the local gas station, Target, Walmart, McDonald's, Taco Bell, etc---maybe then I'd be more sympathetic to the people whining "I've been looking for a year, but can't find a job".
I realize that there are reasons to hold out for higher wages if possible---I have a mortgage, a car payment and a kid on the way too--but there has to come a point where you stop wishing your old job at your old wage would come back (it isn't going to--especially the old wage part of it) and get off your butt and WORK, accepting a lower wage if you have to.
I'm frustrated with the whole thing right now, because the American people are as responsible for the recession as the big companies, mostly because of the entitlement attitude and the belief that people don't need to WORK for what they have--they can just put it on credit and pay for it later.
Hello Synn:Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
If you were laid off from a tech job, your unemployment would be MORE than a weeks paycheck from McDonalds... You wouldn't clean toilets at Micky D's for LESS money, than you get for seeking other work, would you?
There has been a push from the right, recently, to blame the poor and unemployed for the country's problems... Now, I'm no lover of lazy takers, and I'm not saying there aren't plenty... But, IF there are, and they are TAKING from you and me, that's the FAULT of the AGENCY that's doling it out... It's NOT the fault of the truly needy.
Look. If we have cops that ferret out marijuana smoke, then we have cops who can ferret out welfare SCAMMERS... That would be if they weren't MORE interested in busting a pot smoker... That's MY view.
excon
/shrug
I don't blame them for not taking LESS money.
I AM extremely upset that we keep extending the end point of unemployment, though.
Less money with benefits can be a lot better than unemployment without.
You let me know how those benefits at McDonald works out for you. And then let me know how unemployment works out after you haven't had a job in 39 weeks.
Then tell me how GE, can go overseas, and not make jobs here, pay no taxes, and get a refund. Then tell me how those job creators are being rewarded not to create jobs. Sounds to me like they aren't doing the job they were paid for, and should be fired, and lose the perks that "job creators" enjoy. So yeah sic SOMEBODY on them, oh wait, the repubs said leave 'em alone. So the problem seems to be how do we get repubs out of the way!!!! Maybe they are protecting the wrong people, YA THINK??
GE is joined at the hip with the Obots.
Dude, I speak from experience so rant at your own risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Just because the Prez consults a few job creators about creating jobs, doesn't mean they are joined at the hip. Repubs ARE joined at the hip with "job creators". Just ask them. Do I really need to prove that??
Obama wants them to pay a bigger chunk of taxes. GE especially, why are they NOT? Is it Obama, or Republicans?
GE is the devil anyway. Them and P&G and Walmart.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Seriously--I've been trying for YEARS to boycott GE for their business practices (their Keynesian economics and exploitation of workers, primarily). I can't do it. They're involved in too many products that you NEED on a regular basis.
Again, it all comes back to NOT having trickle-down economics, because it doesn't work.
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