Ask Me Help Desk - Do not celebrate the deat of OBL. He too was human.

I am Catholic, and maybe I shouldn't feel happy and celebrate the death of a fellow human being. However, if that human being has caused so much pain and might have continued to cause pain to other human beings then I don't feel happy, but as an American proud of what my country has done and relieved that such an evil being was erased off the Earth, so yeah it is celebration time, COME ON! I am also Peruvian, and in my country proper equal punishment and taking justice into the hands of civilians is exercised, so I don't really feel bad for celebrating a death.

Good Luck,
Javi

If I read your post correctly you advocate the vigilante road

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Originally Posted by paraclete

if I read your post correctly you advocate the vigilante road

That's actually common in central and south America. Corruption and general lack of effective police patrols makes it almost necessary. ( I have Bolivian and Peruvian friends)

It may be effective but it is no different to terrorism.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

It may be effective but it is no different to terrorism.

Terrorism is what the bad guys do to the good guys. In Central and South American, it's the other way around, so not terrorism.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

It may be effective but it is no different to terrorism.

I wouldn't go quite that far... without that they would have almost no law or justice at all. At least in the more rural areas. Without that the criminal element would have almost free reign.

Not that I know any of this first hand... I know it from what my friends have told me about what they left, and why.

Yes, we know, Pinochet's death squads were essential to the health of the nation. The problem lies in identifying the criminals, so as they say, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes, we know, Pinochet's death squads were essential to the health of the nation. The problem lies in identifying the criminals, so as they say, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Pinochet was from Chile, but he was a Dictator and his death squads were government thugs.. I don't know anyone from Chile to have commented on that situation from their own perspective. I only know what history and the news has said about it.. I only know people from the more northern countries in South America and most of Central America. ( and a few from a lot farther east and west.)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Terrorism is what the bad guys do to the good guys

Who determines who the good and bad guys are?

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Originally Posted by BMI

Who determines who the good and bad guys are?

I have two lists.

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Originally Posted by BMI

Who determines who the good and bad guys are?

Hello BMI:

The ones with the biggest guns.

excon

So ex what you are saying is the bad guys determine who the bad guys are?

Hello C:

Nope. I'm saying that history is written by the victors..

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello C:

Nope. I'm saying that history is written by the victors..

excon

Well who else is going to write it, the vanquished are often not to be found. Not many books have been written on the subject of we were defeated

I haven't read the entire thread. I got to page 12, and it got so far off track I gave up.

I myself will not celebrate the death of another human being, no matter how evil that human being is. I do wish justice had been served, but I don't believe that murdering him was justice, and yes, it was murder.

I have to point out something that I find amusing. Most of the people that have stated that they won't celebrate the death of a human being, aren't Christian. The majority of those dancing on his grave are Christian. I'm talking about this thread only, not the entire world (before someone debates this).

That's a real eye opener right there.

The death of OBL was poetic justice or perhaps, natural justice, he died the same violent death in fear he offered so many others. No virgins for him!

The world has the right to celebrate the death of a tyrant just as they celebrated the death of other mass murdering tyrants. That he was obviously assassinated makes no difference. If there was more of this form of justice perhaps we would be quickly free of the tyranny of terrorism

The entire world isn't celebrating. That's the point.

Am I sad that he's dead? No. But I'm not going to celebrate the death of another human being. I've been around death far too much in my life to celebrate the death of any living thing.

You say that there should be more assassinations. More forms of this "justice". So, you're saying to abandon all the laws put in place and just go around killing anyone we think is a threat? What if you're wrong? I'm not saying that OBL was innocent, but abandon the law for one man and chaos ensues.

That's a very scary thought.

There will always be evil in the world. Killing off everyone you deem a threat won't put a stop to any of it. In fact, it may just make matters worse. Now they have a cause. Their supposed leader was assassinated. Do you really think they'll just walk away from that?

I don't think that's cause for celebration. It will get worse before it gets better. How can it not?

Now you are carrying the thought too far, I said nothing about abandoning the laws for ordinary people but my view is that those who don't respect the law should not be protected by it. It is my belief that those who step outside the law forfeit its protection.

In WWII deciency and "law" had to be abandoned to bring the Japanese to the point of surrender. The demise of Bin Laden is no different, this has been a war against a hidden cowardly enemy. We are now at the point where things can get better, where former allegiences might be abandoned, and the radical islamic jihad may be preached a little less and ultimately fade away

Perhaps his death will hasten the end of this war against jihadistan. What I don't see is a lot of mourning going on for him from the ummah. That is good news anyway you slice it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Perhaps his death will hasten the end of this war against jihadistan. What I don't see is alot of mourning going on for him from the ummah. That is good news anyway you slice it.

And we are seeing so many educated Muslim young people rejecting the old authoritarian, theocratic ways.

Yes indeed . I've watched the Libyan thing closely and I see no indication of an embrace of Islamism. They sound like liberty loving people to me .Not sure how all this will pan out ;but I'm hopeful.

Not sure what this means for Iran and their liberty loving people, but the top ayatollah thinks the Mahdi Hatter is "under a spell."

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Not sure what this means for Iran and their liberty loving people, but the top ayatollah thinks the Mahdi Hatter is "under a spell."

Gee... its taken them this long to start to grasp Adolf's elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor?

When the Mahdi-hatter spoke at the UN and saw the glow of the 12th Imam ;and the attendees transfixed not even blinking their eyes ,I knew he had a screw loose.

Back on the Jihadistan front, the Pakistani Taliban vowed to fight on...

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"After the martyrdom of Sheik Osama, the mujahideen will continue jihad to complete his mission with a new zeal," Rehman said, referring to his fighters.

"We have the same target, program and mission," he added. "Our enemies are NATO, Jews and Christians."

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now you are carrying the thought too far, I said nothing about abandoning the laws for ordinary people but my view is that those who don't respect the law should not be protected by it. It is my belief that those who step outside the law forfeit its protection.

That makes no sense. So, you're saying that everyone that's suspected of murder doesn't have the right to have the law defend him/her? I'm saying innocent until proven guilty. That's the law. If we just go by what people assume, start killing everyone we think is "evil" or "don't respect the law", then my post was accurate. We're abandoning the law.

If we waive the rights of even one person, then that's going to far IMO.

Problem is there is a declared war. Its not simply an action to arrest a criminal to bring to justice like a deadbeat dad or even a bank robber.

That takes it to a whole different level, and according to the international rules of war.. it IS legal to not only target, but to kill the leaders of the enemy... as well as the enemy that is encountered.

Al Qaeda isn't a ring of car thieves, or even human traffickers. They have declared war, and waged attacks to that end.

Otherwise... WWI, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and in fact every war that was ever waged in history would be considered the very same thing.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

That makes no sense. So, you're saying that everyone that's suspected of murder doesn't have the right to have the law defend him/her? I'm saying innocent until proven guilty. That's the law. If we just go by what people assume, start killing everyone we think is "evil" or "don't respect the law", then my post was accurate. We're abandoning the law.

If we waive the rights of even one person, then that's going to far IMO.

No I didn't say you didn't have a right to a defense. The French long ago abandoned the pretense of innocence and so have the Chinese. If there is enough evidence to bring you to trial then it is for you to make the defense not the state's obligation to defend you. But there are people who don't respect the law, the Mafia, the gangs, the drug cartels, terrorists, seriel killers, people trafficers such people have set up their own law and our system allows them the pretense of innocence. Where I come from we have modifed the concept a little, if you are a member of a proscribed organisation you are guilty of an offense.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

But there are people who don't respect the law, the Mafia, the gangs, the drug cartels, terrorists, seriel killers, people trafficers such people have set up their own law and our system allows them the pretense of innocence.

You forgot certain presidents, administrations, etc.

The flaw in this line of thinking is the belief that this was a law enforcement event. Smoothy is right... OBL is KIA

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The flaw in this line of thinking is the belief that this was a law enforcement event. Smoothy is right ...OBL is KIA

Of course it was a law enforcement event, the original victims were 100% civilian. Only a dingaling like George Bush could think it was a war. There are two different things OBL and Afghanistan, linked but different. The reason it took so long to prosecute OBL is the military were used to do the police work, and for the record OBL was killed in inaction

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Originally Posted by paraclete

of course it was a law enforcement event, the original victims were 100% civilian. Only a dingaling like George Bush could think it was a war. There are two different things OBL and Afghanistan, linked but different. The reason it took so long to prosecute OBL is the military were used to do the police work, and for the record OBL was killed in inaction

Any country in the world would consider that an act of war. Besides, they committed other acts of war prior to that. Some of those WERE against the US Military... Some were US Federal Employees. It wasn't one single act or limited to one single day. It was just the one that finally opened the proverbial "can of whoopass."

Personally... If "I" was the president... he would have been dismembered on VIDEO. And then fed to hungry hogs for the world to see, no Muslim funeral at all. But then, I wasn't in the position to do that. That's not talk... that's EXACTLY how I feel about it.

Osama Declared war on the USA, he actually announced it on video and audio recordings... he and his minions committed SEVERAL acts of war against the USA. We were within our rights.

And besides even IF that didn't apply... WE have, believe in and practice capital punishment in this country (and it applies to everyone). Thank god. He was simply shot and killed while resisting arrest if that makes you feel better about it. End of story. There was NO way he was getting out of this alive. No matter HOW it was approached.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Any country in the world would consider that an act of war. Besides, they committed other acts of war prior to that. Some of those WERE against the US Military...Some were US Federal Employees. It wasn't one single act or limited to one single day. It was just the one that finally opened the proverbial "can of whoopass."

Personally....If "I" was the president...he would have been dismembered on VIDEO. And then fed to hungry hogs for the world to see, no Muslim funeral at all. But then, I wasn't in the position to do that. That's not talk....that's EXACTLY how I feel about it.

Osama Declared war on the USA, he actually announced it on video and audio recordings.......he and his minions committed SEVERAL acts of war against the USA. We were within our rights.

And besides even IF that didn't apply....WE have, believe in and practice capital punishment in this country (and it applies to everyone). Thank god. He was simply shot and killed while resisting arrest if that makes you feel better about it. End of story. There was NO way he was getting out of this alive. No matter HOW it was approached.

Look I could declare war, what would it mean? Not much, since I don't possess the resources of a country and an organised military. Al Qaeda was as much an idea as a paramilitary force. They made a didn't in a few places and a hole in New York but really it was a few spectacular events, terrorist acts, and they succeeded because they had the world living in terror for ten years. What was needed to catch them was good sound police work, not thousands of soldiers kicking down doors in the middle of the night.

As far as OBL is concerned, good riddance, he died as he lived, that is justice and so may all of his ilk perish

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Look I could declare war, what would it mean? Not much, since I don't possess the resources of a country and an organised military. Al Qaeda was as much an idea as a paramilitary force. They made a dint in a few places and a hole in New York but really it was a few spectacular events, terrorist acts, and they succeeded because they had the world living in terror for ten years. What was needed to catch them was good sound police work, not thousands of soldiers kicking down doors in the middle of the night.

As far as OBL is concerned, good riddance, he died as he lived, that is justice and so may all of his ilk perish

Personally, I think killing as many of the wastes of human flesh that thought like they did as well was appropriate and justified. In fact there are still too many of them still drawing breath to suit me.

Of course I also a big believer in not picking a fight with someone that can kick your butt. Unless you are ready to get it kicked.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Personally, I think killing as many of the wastes of human flesh that thought like they did as well was appropriate and justified. In fact there are still too many of them still drawing breath to suit me.

Of course I also a big believer in not picking a fight with someone that can kick your butt. Unless you are ready to get it kicked.

Usually the only people who do that are religious extremists or fanatics.

It will be interesting to see the outcome in Yemen, that's where al qaeda seems to have boots on the ground at the moment. Interesting how they can only thrive in these backwards places