Unions are not sacred cows. They are the difference to being dictated to, and talked with.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
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Unions are not sacred cows. They are the difference to being dictated to, and talked with.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You obviously misunderstood the analogy, the Unions are the faithful, the sacred cows are their cherished conditions. What the Governor is trying to do is to slaughter the sacred cows, the conditions the workers have won through barganing. The Governor is using a different form of barganing where he denies conditions formerly agreed and seeks to establish a new norm by decree. I don't suggest he is right to do this, far from it. Such tactics are Union bustingQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Sorry I did indeed misunderstand. We should have negotiated the meaning of sacred cows.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I deal with the facts... but the left doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
If a unionized public servant being dictated to is slavery... then what is the taxpayer that's being told how much they WILL hand over to them? Extortion?
What is a non-union employee that's told what he will and won't do by their boss... or they are fired is that slavery too?
slav·er·y /ˈsleɪvəri, ˈsleɪvri/ Show Spelled
[sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.
Use slavery in a Sentence
See images of slavery
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Origin:
1545–55; slave + -ery
—Related forms
pre·slav·er·y, adjective, noun
—Synonyms
1. thralldom, enthrallment. Slavery, bondage, servitude refer to involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master: to be sold into slavery. Bondage indicates a state of subjugation or captivity often involving burdensome and degrading labor: in bondage to a cruel master. Servitude is compulsory service, often such as is required by a legal penalty: penal servitude. 4. moil, labor.
FACT - Walmart negotiates its discounts in huge volumes... THey don't buy things by the case, or even a shipping container... they buy entire production runs. So of course... they get the lowest price. Does anyone HAVE to sell to Walmart at the prices Walmart wants to pay... nope. I challeng you to prove any instances of strongarm tactics of "you will sell it to us for this price or we break some kneecaps" by Walmart.
FACT - Dirt farmers aren't going to work in factories because they would be shot if they didn't. They do it because it pays better money. They do it by choice. Its not slavery if you can come by choice and can leave by choice.
FACT - Unions had a BIG part of the mess states are in... because previous democrat administrations gave the unions whatever they wanted and in turn the Unions gave the democrats large ammounts of money that was exterorted from their rank and file... many of whom did not agree with WHO was getting it. State empoyee Pension funding is a HUGE financial burdern for most states... this includes Teachers.
FACT -... the housing bubble and crisis was a result of Democrat policies that everyone is entitled to get a house if they can actually pay for it or not... it wasn't rich people who could.
FACT - Welfare recipients, Illegals and the Lazy people don't create jobs... the wealthy do. Poor peole don't found and run most businesses, much less most businesses that hire people.
FACT - Wisconsins debt is VERY real... Just like Californias... New Yorks, and a number of other states. The people the argue there is no debt are the same people that ignore the proven fact Obama quadrupled the national debt in just 2 years, and fixate on the much smaller debt of a previous administration over 8 years.
FACT - Every State gives tax breaks to get or keep employers. Business taxes are always passed on via higher product costs.
How about taxing Hollywood, How about taxing major league sports the same way the left wants to punish Businesses.
How about not allowing Unions to contribute to political campaigns.
How about making Congress, the Senate and the Executive branch subject to every one of the same laws they impose on the rest of us.
Hello smoothy:Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Let me ask you about THIS fact.. When you negotiated your salary, does your boss think you extorted him?? Is he HANDING over his money to you, or do you earn it?
I don't know why the right wing has so much trouble with English.
excon
Hey... it was the left that brought up having to negotiate wages as being equal to slavery.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
When I negotiated my salary when I first got this job... there were over 800 other applicants (yes they gave me an exact number after I was hired) they could have chosen any of them if they didn't like what I wanted. I wasn't the only applicant. The fact they picked me and what I asked for indicated it was a good deal for them. And there were no threats and intimidation involved.
And who makes or produces those runs? Yeah some underpaid and overworked third world non educated worker in a sweatshop, who just wants a bowl of rice.a day, and twice if they are lucky. How does 20 cents a day rise you above slavery? Workers don't negotiate, they do or they go hungry. How is that a choice?Quote:
FACT - Wilmart negotiates its discounts in huge volumes... THey don't buy things by the case, or even a shipping container... they buy entire production runs. So of course... they get the lowest price. Does anyone HAVE to sell to Walmart at the prices Walmart wants to pay... nope. I challenge you to prove any instances of strong arm tactics of "you will sell it to us for this price or we break some kneecaps" by Walmart.
Survival and wanting better for you and yours is a natural human condition, and like you,they want a choice to be better than dirt farmers.Like you negotiated YOUR contract and they accepter, that's what unions want to. To negotiate, and yes unions have options, when the boss doesn't agree, as does the boss when he doesn't agree.Quote:
FACT - Dirt farmers aren't going to work in factories because they would be shot if they didn't. They do it because it pays better money. They do it by choice. Its not slavery if you can come by choice and can leave by choice.
That's not a fact, and be they democratic or republican, the states problems were caused by wall street, not main street. You just think that main street should pay, because wall street says SCREW YOU! In case you haven't noticed, all the unions have negotiated, or will to negotiate all the finances that have been put to them, ALL!! From the Auto industry, to the teachers union. Now that's a fact!!Quote:
FACT - Unions had a BIG part of the mess states are in... because previous democrat administrations gave the unions whatever they wanted and in turn the Unions gave the democrats large amounts of money that was extorted from their rank and file... many of whom did not agree with WHO was getting it. State employee Pension funding is a HUGE financial burden for most states... this includes Teachers.
Untrue, the bubble was greed induced starting at wall street, and that's a fact. They took the easiest route, and lied about value as they LET anyone sign up and things were great until the banking crisis hit the fan, which was about wall street, not main street. They screwed every bank in the world and got off Scott free for now, but rest assured, every dog will have its day.Quote:
FACT -... the housing bubble and crisis was a result of Democrat policies that everyone is entitled to get a house if they can actually pay for it or not... it wasn't rich people who could.
So haven't you noticed the recession the wealthy have caused is making more poor people? What have the wealthy done to correct that problem?Quote:
FACT - Welfare recipients, Illegals and the Lazy people don't create jobs... the wealthy do. Poor Pele don't found and run most businesses, much less most businesses that hire people.
This president saved the world economy, and the wealthy people sat on their money.Quote:
FACT - Wisconsin's debt is VERY real... Just like Californias... New Yorks, and a number of other states. The people the argue there is no debt are the same people that ignore the proven fact Obama quadrupled the national debt in just 2 years, and fixate on the much smaller debt of a previous administration over 8 years.
Mo money, mo money, how rich can you get? How much more should workers give after the rich so called job creators have gotten richer, without getting off their big rich asses? That's why there is a deficit. Just look at the tax cuts and who gets them. There is your deficit. Trickle down economics has never worked, and has always lead to a recession, or depression, that's history, and those are facts, and that's the goal of the right wing.Quote:
FACT - Every State gives tax breaks to get or keep employers. Business taxes are always passed on via higher product costs.
How about taxing Hollywood, How about taxing major league sports the same way the left wants to punish Businesses.
Check your tax code, they already do.
How about not allowing Unions to contribute to political campaigns.
How about not allowing corporations and right wing supply side fat cats not to contribute to campaigns either?
How about making Congress, the Senate and the Executive branch subject to every one of the same laws they impose on the rest of us.
We agree, right down to health care like they have.
Thanks for the laugh of the day. He could've saved the economy if he reversed TARP after he was sworn in and let the zombies die.Quote:
This president saved the world economy, and the wealthy people sat on their money.
Instead he prolonged the agony... and then ,like a good community organizer ,he and his cohorts in Congress stole even more of our tax money to give to zombie states to
Shell out to his buddies in the public service unions .
You and others here are quick to condemn the rich at the same time you defend the actions of a President who has gone along with the crony merchantilism he claims to oppose. Why is it that all he knows to do is get advice from Goldman Sach operatives (or more recently from JP Morgan's William Daley) ?
It's your President who perpetuates the system that allows banks to operate with no sense of moral hazard. Had they been allowed to crash and burn we would've been no worse off ,and most likely much better than we are today.
Plus they fail to recognise... Obama IS one of the rich. Want to bet he isn't handing over HIS money for the greater good of the socilist movement, and has plans to protect it? I don't know how much he actually has but I know it exceedes $5 million dollars in savings alone, not counting all the oil stocks he's pushing higher so he can cash in before he or someone else wakes up and lets us tap our own oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Oooooooo the Mesiah is one of those he pretends to hate so much.
Underpaid by WHAT standards...Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Silicon Valley, Manhattan, Washington DC? Or are we talking about Calcutta, Louisiana, or Sudan.
Before you toss around that number... I am underpaid by the standards of certain locations... but I don't live or work there... nor do the places that produce these goods.
Wall street was the cash cow of the Democrats... not the republicans. Look at campaign donations to prove it... those are public record.
So are Lawyers... in most lawsuits it's the lawyers that get the most money... not the people who deserve the awards.
You don't NEED unions to negotiat... in fact when a union is involved... the individual doesn't negotiate AT ALL... a union thug does it under a pay up or else threat, you take whatever you get. In some cases LIKE teachers Unions... once you have Tenure... you can do almost anything and you can't be fired... like THAT is really good for anyone. And incidentally... Union negotiated pay increases don't keep pace with private industry in many cases. I've been on both sides... I got far higher annual raises as a non-union worker than I did as a Union worker. And at least as a non-union worker... I wasn't handing over around $100+ a month for someone else to bribe officials of the party I detest with MY money.
The Real Estate Bubble contrary to Democrat propaganda started under Clinton when there was a lawsuit forcing banks to give mortgages to people with poor credit histories... because it was unfair a high credit risk individual should be denied his right to screw a bank out of huge sums of money when they don't pay their mortgage.
Fanni mae , and Freddie Mac had both ands and feet in that and OBAMA was they gave the most money to Obama. Chris Dodd was in it up to his nose.
But then... CBS, NPR, CNN and MSNBC have never been guilty of telling the whole truth. They regurgitate what the DNC tells them to say, word for word.
Thanks for making my point fellas. If you are stuck on the right, and I am stuck on the left, why not meet in the middle and honestly negotiate so we both can benefit? Or else neither of us makes progress.
So it is in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Ready to negotiate yet??
Anyone notice that Ohio just pushed it through and let WI deal with the publicity?
The more I read about this, the more I'm realizing that our entire economic system is inherently flawed--mostly because of a distinct lack of ethics on the part of big business.
And before ANY of you argue against that, please be aware that I can name at least 10 companies that have acted in a horrible manner to society in the last 30 years, and probably more. The lack of social responsibility and screwing the public to continue to get richer is what makes most people completely against big business.
I've been trying for over a year to figure out a way to boycott GE. You know what? It's pretty much impossible. They own too much to get away from them.
Morning, Synn:Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I notice everything...
If leaving the state would have stopped the legislature in Ohio from ramming this piece of crap through, the Democrats WOULD have done it. Unfortunately, even WITHOUT the Democrats, the Republicans HAVE a quorum in Ohio, and would have voted it through anyway.
But, the Wisconsin Democrats can still win... If they don't, they'll be snatching DEFEAT from the jaws of victory. The public is with them, overwhelmingly. The wind is at their back. All they have to do is open their mouth... They'll go down in history as the Wisconsin 14 who SAVED America. There will be schools named after them.
But, they won't. One of 'em will cave. Personally, I don't know what's wrong with a hotel in Chicago.. They allow conjugal visits in Chicago, aren't they?
excon
There is no room for negotiation. For the states this is an existential issue. Walker has given fair warning.Pink slips go out today.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
There is so much other crap in the Wisconsin bill, that it seems that the delay gave us all a chance to really start reading it, and the people there are seeing that they are about to get screwed all together. Like paying for kids in private schools, with already rich parents and taking 900 million of the public schools?
Add that to the Ohio house shenanigans, boy what's going on in this country?
The one to watch though, is Bully boy Christie in NJ, the cops are demonstrating in Trenton over his bill.
You can start by not watching the pin heads at MSNBC... and opposing Obamacare ;a proposition largely the idea of GE and their 'healthymagination'campaign.Quote:
I've been trying for over a year to figure out a way to boycott GE. You know what? It's pretty much impossible. They own too much to get away from them.
It was no surprise that when Immelt left GE he went through that revolving door into the White House .
Obama names GE's Immelt head of new jobs council - The Oval: Tracking the Obama presidency
Christe can't do much until the good people of NJ dump the Dems in the Legislature.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I've been against Obamacare from the first. You think I'm a democrat a lot, when I'm not. I'm closer to a Centrist than anything. In fact, I'd like to see political parties banned entirely. And I absolutely did NOT vote for Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...9-percent.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:
Somehow, I think if the job numbers wouldn't have been positive, it would have been Obamas fault. But, since they're rosy, you guys take the credit..
Besides, curbing a woman's right to choose does NOT increase jobs, and that's the only thing the right wing congress has done.
excon
Nearly all of those jobs listed are unskilled labor, or low skilled white collar. Health Care was the only area I saw that required a degree--and most of the areas in health care that are hiring are the 1-2 year degrees, NOT the 4-12 year degrees.
I see nothing there about IT or engineering. I don't see anything about art and design areas (architecture, photography, advertising, etc) at all.
Great--the low skilled people can go back to work. A little.
Those with higher degrees who used to make 6 figures (and who are collecting the highest "salaries" on unemployment---those people are still stuck looking for a job that isn't the equivalent of a Walmart greeter compared to their old job.
Woohoo... great job politicians! You've managed to convince ME that you want us all to be drones grateful for our hotel lobby desk clerk jobs!
Do they not deserve jobs too ? Manufacturing jobs and construction both made big gains . I think I'll take them over art and photography if you don't mind .
Sure they deserve jobs too! And they probably NEED the jobs more.
Now someone get me the numbers on how many people were laid off over the last several years in those areas.
I'm just saying that it's all well and good that those areas got jobs. But there are a LOT of areas that are still struggling, and many of those areas are the upper middle class jobs, rather than the lower middle to upper lower class jobs.
The first thing he did was give tax cuts for the rich and holler broke, when they had a looming surplus coming, while many of his fair minded colleagues balanced their budgets in other states by raising taxes on the rich, AND making less drastic cuts to the private unions AND the cities, AND without cutting rights, giving away utilities to campaign contributors, AND paying for private schools for the rich kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Come on talan why so glum ? Look at the unemployment numbers today... it's Friday night... lets party!!
YouTube - "Happy Days are Here Again!" (Ben Selvin and the Crooners, 1930)
Right... lets triple the taxes for the rich and businesses in Michigan and drive out ALL the wealthy people and business then who will be there to pay for all the welfare bums and entitlement programs then. Because they will ALL leave and go someplace less socialistic.
They are rich after all and can afford to... or do you just recommend jailing them and just seizing their assets for redistribution to people who can't tie their own shoes before they can take what they earned and move?
We don't have to triple the taxes of the rich, just bring them into a better alignment that is conducive to better circulation.
Hmmm the "RICH" already pay MOST of the collected taxes now... you want a better alignment... make the 38% that's not paying any pay their share... or even better... FLAT TAX where everyone pays an equal percentage of their income. THAT is as perfectly aligned as you can get.
Conducive to circulation where everyone gets a benefit, and passes it on, is better for all, and would end the hoarding that causes the imbalance in the economy.
And poor people can't BUY a politician to make laws for them or can they? And by your line of thinking they have all the money so they should pay for deficits, and shortfalls, especially since they caused them.
What they can't be expected to fix their own mess? Why do I have to bail out a rich cat who screwed everything up?
So its rape the people who worked hard to be a success to give it to those that didn't make the effort or sacrifices needed? Typical Socialism.
WHy make ANY effort if its going to be taken from you. I suppose everyone should be paid the same regardless of what their job is too? Doctor or janitor.
Its not rape to expect the rich to do their part, nor is it rape for them to fix their messes. How is it socialism to expect someone to act responsibly?
As far as doctors and janitors, the are equal under the law. Two humans who work hard at what they do, at honest labor. But should the janitor pay for the doctors mistakes? Why does one have more value as a human than the other? Oh that's right, a Swiss bank account makes the doctor a better human than a paycheck to paycheck janitor.
We are not talking socialism, just being fair and put the blame where it lays, at the hands of those that profit on the backs of others and whose greed, or disregard, has caused all this screw up that a dwindling middle class is paying for. Look who cares how rich someone is, but when I screw up there are consequences, but when a rich guy screws up he is rewarded with more, and I pay for it. How is that fair?
The janitor didn't screw the economy up, why should he pay to fix it??
Okay, I'm more "Who is John Galt" than most people I meet. I'm ABSOLUTELY against socialism.
But I hate the fact that the rich can get richer using off-shore labor instead of being forced to use their tax cuts to hire here in the U.S.
Fine, give companies tax cuts. But make those tax cuts CONTINGENT upon hiring x% of U.S. workers, and x% of their suppliers MUST come from a U.S. company, operating on U.S. soil. And those cuts are ALSO contingent upon the company operating in the state they take those cuts in for X number of years---and I'm thinking more like 20 years than like 2 years.
The fact is that the rich keep getting richer because they can pay 3rd world country labor costs and sell at United States prices.
Im sure your not talking about these people are you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
The Poster Child For Worker Exploitation, Walmart Considering Offshore Outsourcing Jobs | The Economic Populist
I don't shop at Walmart, partly for that reason.
The only thing I buy at Wallyworld is ammo. Other then that I try to buy and support my local people as best as I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
So... make the 38% who pay nothing now pay their share... they consume an inordinate amount... let them pay their fair share. Something they haven't been doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
THe typical liberal is always generous with SOMEONE Else's MONEY.
THis is a novel concept for the left... but how about people paying their own way for once, instead of expecting someone else to be forced to pick up the tab.
Welfare bums who have done nothing their entire lives but collect a check and breed like rabbits AREN'T entitled to the money of those who have worked their butts off their entire life.
Show me a rich guy who actually pays 38% of his income taxes, and I will show you a guy who is to dumb or cheap to have an accountant to take advantage of loopholes, and tax breaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Warren Buffett pays less taxes than his secretary.
I can show you a lot of them... but then... do YOU define rich like Obama does... or the rest of us do.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Besides that 38% number are peole who pay NO income tax... and worse get money handed to them they never paid in the first place.
People who pay no tax shouldn't be getting thousands Back from it too.
Let them pay the same percentage they demand those of us who work hard pay. And No... I'm not rich even by Obamas rather lax standards.
You got something against the working poor? Try raising a family off a McDonald's and Walmart salary, with two kids. They work as hard as you do I'm sure.
If they're going to McDonald's, they're NOT that poor.
A family of 4 takes $20 to feed at McD's, and if you can afford THAT, you aren't poor enough to get Welfare.
*I* can't afford McDonald's except on a special occasion, and I make considerably more than the poverty level.
People do not DESERVE new things and meals out. People do not have the RIGHT to have nice things or spacious living quarters or McDonald's fries or whatever.
Welfare is meant to put food in bellies (not necessarily TASTY food--but healthy food) and a roof over your head. So what if your kids have to share a room and you have to shop at Goodwill? If you're living off the taxpayer dollars, you SHOULD be wearing hand-me-downs and eating Kix cereal and macaroni and cheese instead of Banquet meals and steak dinners.
And frankly, some of those people living on that Walmart salary need to learn to use their birth control correctly (or just USE it to begin with) or keep their zippers up. If you can't afford to FEED your children, you shouldn't HAVE children--and if circumstances mean you take a step down, you shouldn't have MORE children.
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