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Originally Posted by cozyk

You left out your solution for the percentage of kids that fall under the umbrella of parents that DON'T teach their children.

"Again and again and again, I have always supported APPROPRIATE intervention under APPROPRIATE circumstances. I don't however believe most parents in this country are incompetent so the government, PP and everyone else needs to get the hell out of the way and mind their own business when it comes to parents raising their children."

I believe that was my solution for both sides, the responsible and the irresponsible. I didn't define "appropriate intervention." That's hard to define and each case is different, but I think a middle ground is possible.

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No one is putting limits on how you raise your children, what you teach them, etc. If you are doing a good job with that, then you have nothing to worry about do you? So what are you so upset about?

I can teach my children my values all I want - for now - but when the school or another entity teaches them contrary values against my wishes that is unacceptable. What's so hard to understand about that?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I knew someone would ask that. Responsible parents should be left alone to raise their children WITHOUT interference from ANYONE.

You ask for it. No one is knocking down your door to raise your child. No one is kid napping your child and sitting them in a PP room. Why are you so paranoid that someone other than you is trying to raise your child. Something is not right here. You are way too emotional about this. I don't think we are hearing the whole story with you.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

What has PP done to you that illicits so much hatred and venom? They haven't touched my life at all.

I've been over this many times, the clues are in my earlier posts.

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I've taught my children about love, sex, commitment, birth control, and good planning in general, which covers decisions about sex. If they hear other things out in the world, I couldn't care less.

That's your decision, I couldn't care more.

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Why, because I know they get it. If they are taught correctly, then it doesn't matter what they hear on the street, in the locker room, in a sex ed class, or from any PP lit. They have the knowledge. For kids that don't, I hope they get the right knowledge.

You must believe kids are mature and not very impressionable. I know better. And to illustrate my point...

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Dodd and Obama’s Oversight: What if a Minor Wants to Charge an Abortion?
Posted at 2:36 pm on May 29, 2009 by dougpowers
[ Abortion ] Send to a Friend | printer-friendly

Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut, the mortgage opportunist who allowed AIG bonuses to stay in the stimulus bill and then later bashed the people who got the bonuses (but who was also happy to accept AIG’s campaign donations), demonstrates his priorities in a new campaign ad.

In the ad, President Obama touts Dodd’s leadership in passing credit card reform, and expresses pride that kids under 18 can no longer get a credit card without parental approval.

But, Dodd and Obama do believe that that same kid should be able to cross state lines for an abortion without parental approval.

So, rest easy — if you have a minor daughter, she could kill your grandchild without your permission, but she won’t be able to buy clothes at the mall with a Mastercard afterwards. Whew!

But here’s a question that may lead to the ultimate dilemma for the liberal politician: What if the pregnant minor wants to charge the abortion?

Back to the drawing board for an amendment: No minor shall be issued a credit card without parental approval unless said card is only used at Planned Parenthood, or for DNC campaign donations.

That's the difference between me and people like Dodd. I don't believe kids under 18 should have a credit card OR an abortion without parental consent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

You ask for it. No one is knocking down your door to raise your child. No one is kid napping your child and sitting them in a PP room. Why are you so paranoid that someone other than you is trying to raise your child. Something is not right here. You are way too emotional about this. I don't think we are hearing the whole story with you.

First of all I'm not being emotional, I'm telling it like it is. Sounds to me like you're implying I'm unstable or unable to see this clearly. Trust me, I see it very clearly, I'm just not intimidated. I believe the most innocent among us deserve every ounce of passion I can muster in their defense.

Secondly, do you really not care whose programs are being installed in your child's school? How do you feel about abstinence education?

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I believe that was my solution for both sides, the responsible and the irresponsible. I didn't define "appropriate intervention." That's hard to define and each case is different, but I think a middle ground is possible.

What about in the mean time?
Just let them learn the hard way?

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I can teach my children my values all I want - for now - but when the school or another entity teaches them contrary values against my wishes that is unacceptable. What's so hard to understand about that?

[/QUOTE]

"Values" are not being taught, facts are. Values come from what you have instilled in them. Are you leaving out some of the facts? Are you concerned that if they receive a full education, that they will not adhere to the values you want them to follow?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx;1765622[QUOTE

]I've been over this many times, the clues are in my earlier posts.

Actually, I'm waiting on something concrete, not clues. Give me something to work with.

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That's your decision, I couldn't care more.

Is that what you meant to say? Or was it that you couldn't care less?

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You must believe kids are mature and not very impressionable. I know better. And to illustrate my point...

I fail to see how this has any connection to sex ed or PP or anything like that. I personally think the credit card bill is a fantastic thing, but it has nothing to do with teaching your children about the birds and the bees. Sounds like the writer of the article had to dig pretty deep to twist a bill as good as this one into something to get the righties riled.

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Secondly, do you really not care whose programs are being installed in your child's school? How do you feel about abstinence education?

[/QUOTE]

I totally believe that abstinence education should be taught. I believe in teaching all there is to know about the subject. Knowledge is power.

This puzzles me a lot. I don't understand why people that are so totally against abortion are the first ones to limit the methods of birth control.

"I'm against abortion, yet I preach abstinence only" as a form of birth control. I MAY agree to certain appropriate sex ed under very stringent conditions. But other than that, if the parents don't teach it, and it doesn't fall within our approved sex ed curriculum, then best of luck to you." You may be a mommy or daddy to a poor child unlucky enough to be born to a couple of clueless teenagers.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I totally believe that abstinence education should be taught.

Hello again,

If sex education is effective, you don't have to teach abstinence. How NOT to get pregnant becomes abundantly obvious.

excon

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Originally Posted by cozyk

What about in the mean time?
Just let them learn the hard way?

Let families be families and kids be kids. Stop encouraging them in their sex lives.

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"Values" are not being taught, facts are. Values come from what you have instilled in them. Are you leaving out some of the facts? Are you concerned that if they receive a full education, that they will not adhere to the values you want them to follow?

Are you really that naïve? You don't believe PP and their "anything goes as long as it's 'safe sex' mentality" isn't teaching them values?

[QUOTE=cozyk;1765678]

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx;1765622

[QUOTE

Actually, I'm waiting on something concrete, not clues. Give me something to work with.

PP not only performed my daughter's abortion without giving her even an inkling of an option, they "treated" her medically without having a clue that she might be HIV positive... unto the point of near death. They're incompetent idiots, and this was in San Diego, CA, not exactly hicktown. They deserve every ounce of my cintempt, and that doesn't even include any of the other vile things they've done to others.

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Is that what you meant to say? Or was it that you couldn't care less?

I meant it as I said it.

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I fail to see how this has any connection to sex ed or PP or anything like that. I personally think the credit card bill is a fantastic thing, but it has nothing to do with teaching your children about the birds and the bees. Sounds like the writer of the article had to dig pretty deep to twist a bill as good as this one into something to get the righties riled.

Good Lord, open your eyes. It's OK to allow teens to have an abortion without parental consent but not a credit card??

[QUOTE=speechlesstx;1765888][QUOTE=cozyk;1765678]

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx;1765622

[QUOTE

PP not only performed my daughter's abortion without giving her even an inkling of an option, they "treated" her medically without having a clue that she might be HIV positive... unto the point of near death. They're incompetent idiots, and this was in San Diego, CA, not exactly hicktown. They deserve every ounce of my cintempt, and that doesn't even include any of the other vile things they've done to others

I knew there had to be more to it. That you weren't telling us everything. I'm sorry that your daughter not only went through this but also felt the need to get an abortion. I have to wonder why she did not come to her parents when she discovered she was pregnant? Is it because you possibly taught her that abstinence was the way to go and since she obviously didn't practice that, she felt ashamed? I could be very wrong, but your daughter did decide to go to them, they did not come looking for her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

I knew there had to be more to it. That you weren't telling us everything. I'm sorry that your daughter not only went through this but also felt the need to get an abortion. I have to wonder why she did not come to her parents when she discovered she was pregnant? Is it because you possibly taught her that abstinence was the way to go and since she obviously didn't practice that, she felt ashamed? I could be very wrong, but your daughter did decide to go to them, they did not come looking for her.

I have told this here, more than once. And it could be she didn't come to us because she got caught up with a scum of an abusive guy and lived in fear of him, not us. She made bad choices and has to live with that, but that doesn't excuse PP's incompetence.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Skell, I am under no illusion that abortion will ever be banned (unless we go the Sharia route) and I don't recall having ever fought for an outright ban so I believe this argument is just a diversion. I want to change the culture that has cheapened the unborn child down to a mass of cells with no value and abortion rights approaching religious status. Changing hearts and minds to see the infinite value of an unborn child is where it starts and when that happens I believe society will be the better for it.

That's very noble of you and it would be great if you were successful. Im serious. But how does howling murder and genocide achieve this? If you guys weren't so aggressive with your views then perhaps people would listen a bit more.

Well you guys have one less 'murderer' to worry about. Unless of course you count the murderer of the 'murderer'. In that case it's even.

Abortion doctor shot dead at his church

Oh and Steve just one more quick one. I read a lot of posts just now but I'm sure somewhere in them I'm sure I read that you wanted something that resembled 'common ground'? No? Funny isn't how you lambasted Obama just last week when he called for the very same thing in his speech at Notre Dame.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Well you guys have one less 'murderer' to worry about. Unless of course you count the murderer of the 'murderer'. In that case it's even.

Abortion doctor shot dead at his church

That story is popular at Digg:
Kansas abortion doctor killed

Check out the comments. The users at Digg are mostly younger tech-savvy types than the people the Current Events forum here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skell

That's very noble of you and it would be great if you were successful. Im serious. But how does howling murder and genocide achieve this?? If you guys werent so aggressive with your views then perhaps people would listen a bit more.

Skell, I don't generally howl murder and genocide, but after roughly 49,551,703 abortions since Roe what would you call it?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Skell, I don't generally howl murder and genocide, but after roughly 49,551,703 abortions since Roe what would you call it?

Hello again, Steve:

I don't know how you can call it that, and still deny you're going to put the perps in jail.

Maybe if we talked about that, you'd stop calling it murder - or not. Just looking for common ground here.

excon

Put all the women on death row I say!

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Originally Posted by Skell

Oh and Steve just one more quick one. I read alot of posts just now but im sure somewhere in them i'm sure i read that you wanted something that resembled 'common ground'? No? Funny isn't how you lambasted Obama just last week when he called for the very same thing in his speech at Notre Dame.

You'd have to be more specific, I don't recall lambasting Obama last week for calling for common ground on abortion at ND. Nevertheless, Obama calls for a lot of things but so far his actions don't seem to match quite a bit of the rhetoric.

I knew Dr. Tiller's murder would here front and center today, but even ABC news granted that both sides of the debate find this tragic, so don't try to lay this at our feet.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I knew Dr. Tiller's murder would here front and center today, but even ABC news granted that both sides of the debate find this tragic, so don't try to lay this at our feet.

As is your situation, it's tragic but please don't lay it at our feet.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I dunno how you can call it that, and still deny you're going to put the perps in jail.

Maybe if we talked about that, you'd stop calling it murder - or not. Just looking for common ground here.

I do believe it is murder when an unborn child is intentionally killed but I don't "howl" murder and genocide as a primary argument. Now can you answer my question? What would you call roughly 49,551,703 abortions since Roe? Health care?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

As is your situation, it's tragic but please don't lay it at our feet.

Well gee NK, that might have some teeth if I had done that. And bvy the way, what on earth does your insulting opinion that the users at Digg are "mostly younger tech-savvy types than the people the Current Events forum here" have to do with anything? Say something relevant for a change.

Ok Steve, I'll let you cool down.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Ok Steve, I'll let you cool down.

I'm plenty cool, so what does your users at Digg comment have to do with anything?

Another view, different from the neocon bias of these threadstarters.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Another view, different from the neocon bias of these threadstarters.

You say that as if there's no liberal bias around here. LOL!

Ok, Steve.

In regard to Tiller's murder, no one on the right (except for that lunatic Fred Phelps) is calling for violence and/or intimidation in the abortion debate. John Yoo, who has been neither charged with or convicted of anything, is being stalked, harassed and threatened by the good leftists in Berkeley.

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Neighborhood Alert: Berkeley Home to Possible War Criminal
By Cynthia Papermaster
Thursday May 28, 2009
From time to time I receive alerts, usually by email, from the Berkeley Police Department and neighborhood groups, about criminal activity in Berkeley. I like getting this information. It helps me be on the lookout for criminals and is a good reminder to lock my doors and windows.

Last week the Grizzly Peak neighbors of John Yoo received a “Neighborhood Alert” regarding Professor Yoo, in the form of a flyer letting them know he lives among them and providing information about his crimes, namely providing unethical and shoddy legal advice and cover to Bybee, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. for illegal interrogation methods and the inhumane, degrading treatment of detainees—“unethical” because Yoo advocates breaking the law and “shoddy” because the memos were so ineptly crafted that they were repudiated and rescinded.

Unlike a sexual predator or burglar, Mr. Yoo is a criminal whom the police are not likely to point out to Berkeley citizens, though his crimes are horrific...

... there is a growing group of Berkeley citizens who are standing in witness in front of Yoo’s house on a weekly basis, starting this Sunday, May 31, at 2 p.m. Join this group on Grizzly Peak for an hour or so. If there’s any justice in this world John Yoo is going to have problems living a normal life now, unless he apologizes to us all.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

... is being stalked, harassed and threatened by the good leftists in Berkeley.

No one says they are "leftists" except you, not in the article or anywhere. Check your hatred at the door please.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

John Yoo, who has been neither charged with or convicted of anything, is being stalked, harassed and threatened by the good leftists in Berkeley.

Hello again,

Even if they ARE leftists - SCREW John Yoo!

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

No one says they are "leftists" except you, not in the article or anywhere. Check your hatred at the door please.

I've never seen anyone here claim to be a "neocon" but that doesn't stop you from using the term disparagingly about us.

Nonetheless, one would have to be completely out of touch or in denial to not know these people in the article including the author - (and I quote) "People for the American Way, ACLU, Act Against Torture, Human Rights First, National Religious Campaign Against Torture, MoveOn, democrats.com, CREDO, World Can’t Wait, the National Lawyers Guild Committee Against Torture, CODEPINK, Progressive Democrats of America, Voters for Peace, Common Cause, and afterdowningstreet.org" - are liberals, progressives, aka "leftists."

Everyone knows that Bill O'Reilly killed George Tiller.

O'Reilly's campaign against murdered doctor | Salon News

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

Even if they ARE leftists - SCREW John Yoo!

excon

So you have no problem with vigilante justice?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

everyone knows that Bill O'Reilly killed George Tiller.

Hello tom:

And, who could blame the dude who yelled fire in the theater, either??

You guys are really out of touch.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So you have no problem with vigilante justice?

Hello again, Steve:

So it went from stalking and harassment, to vigilante justice...

Dude! It was probably just some stoned hippies carrying signs, lighting candles, and singing cumbya.

I say again, SCREW John Yoo.

excon

Out of touch ? Not at all. O'Reilly reported on this doctor because his practice was under criminal investigation.

Do you or Gabriel Winant even know if Scott Roeder watched his show ? No you don't . And yet this murder is used to smear O'Reilley because he pointed out the particularly barbaric practice of "Doctor" Tiller.

Why isn't the press emphasizing the fact that his specialty was late term abortions when there is no question about the viability of the baby ? No ;instead there is a nonsensical linkage to the anti-abortion movement itself .

This from the same people who think the bombings by the Weather Underground was patriotic protest and that Bill Ayers is an American hero.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

out of touch ? not at all. O'Reilly reported on this doctor because his practice was under criminal investigation.

Hello again, tom:

There is a difference between REPORTING and WHIPPING people into a frenzy.

Neither YOU, nor the loons at Fox noise know the difference.

excon

PS> This is reporting?? O'Reilly compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a "baby killer," and warned of "Judgment Day"... He's pathetic!

Excuse me, they're "peacefully" doing what they can to get the "war criminal" Yoo fired, convicted, disbarred and otherwise "have problems living a normal life."