I was referring to the exorbitant costs due to an unnecessary war in another part of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
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I was referring to the exorbitant costs due to an unnecessary war in another part of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
England just had its first run on a bank. Norther Rock. America is right behind you. We will have a few runs on the banks here soon I'm betting. After the government bails their Wall Street sweet hearts out, we won't be able to afford free anything. It's all campaign caca.
Like you say education is a good thing, and the question really is who should pay for it at the post high school level.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The taxpayor or the student, most of whom are over the age of 18 and, therefore, can take on choice and responsibility instead of expecting to be spoon fed and waited on all their life at the taxpayors expense.
I thought you were a libertarian?
If you go to any major research university, in the hard sciences, you will find an over representation of Asians and Indians. Most of whom are foreign and are busting their butts to get an education, not expecting it free. What is wrong with American raised students that they are not willing to sacrifice and work hard for their futures? Why is Obama appealing to this?
I got my bachelors at 20, got my post grad degree before 25, went on to underpaid professional training, and was not in "the real world" till close to 30. All the while accumulating debt from school loans. My generation and the generation before me, in my field went through this.
With the current state of the economy - ? Recession, sinking dollar, the war in Iraq, the subprime mortgage mess, rising gasoline and food prices... baby boomers reaching 65 now and the expected increase in entitlement spending, let alone the solvency of the Soc Sec system in question,
Medicare Spending to Surge - WSJ.com
How realistic and responsible is it for Obama to put out the idea of"free" college?
How is it going to get paid for ?
And this is before we even get onto Obama's tax stance.
Tax Delusions
"In short, Obama is a "tax-and-spend" liberal, while Hillary is a "spend-and-tax" liberal. If either actually launched their gargantuan spending plans on the basis of imaginary revenues expected from taxing the rich, he or she would quickly end up having to tax the stuffing out of the middle class."
On weekends at Chicagoland libraries, there is an over-representation of Asians (Indians are Asians). Where are the white kids? Hmmm, they are at the fast-food places flipping burgers (for Tom probably) and working as cashiers at stores in the malls. Why are they working instead of studying at the library? They are earning money to pay for their snazzy cars and the gasoline guzzled and the insurance required--the snazzy cars that they need to get to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Now, ask around to find out how the Asian students get to school and the library and then home again
Yes wondergirl you do have to question the priorities of some of the "white kids" . (this is actually getting a little too sterotypical for my liking) . I was flipping burgers and doing anything else I could from the age of 12 to earn money ;not to buy fancy cars ,but to pay for my college education . Maybe I should feel wronged because I wasn't entitled to a "free education" . Had my parents been poorer I could've probably at least gotten a guaranteed low cost loan .They couldn't pay for my schooling because of many factors including high medical expenses for my sister (kidney failure). But somehow I do not think I was entitled to it. My folks were responsible for me until I was 18 and I did not expect them to be responsible beyond that . Anything they did past 18 like letting me live in their house was a bonus that I am forever grateful for . When I went to school I continued to "flip burgers"(worked in the college cafeteria) and in the summers took any job that would pay $$ . One summer I did camp counselor in the day and ripped tickets at the theater by night. Other jobs included maintenance at Grumman Aerospace,road construction ,and I worked at an injection molding plant making water coolers(that job really sucked.) .The couple of years my family lived in Iran I travelled to visit them .Even there I tried to find work (the Peace Corp turned me down ) . Perhaps if I got my education for "free" which again means that I pick someone else's pocket on my behalf,then I would not have as well rounded experiences.So I in no way feel slighted because my education was not "free" .
"Land of the free and home of the victimsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
by Ernest Istook
February 29, 2008 |
I wish I were a victim. Then people would give me things, and government would take care of me.
That's a dominant message on the presidential campaign trail, where some candidates preach that we have become a nation of victims, and that government is the only shining knight who can ride to our rescue.
Sadly, we've fallen to the point where this argument often works.
Using the politics of fear rather than hope, these candidates want to expand a failed war: the "War on Poverty," which has cost America trillions but produced no victory. They now are calling for a permanent surge of programs to cover the middle class - an expansion of the same failed strategy that has given us a permanent underclass that depends on government.
They hope to lure more Americans into this quagmire by convincing them that we are victims.
According to Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, America is a place where the middle class is repressed.
Here's the heart of the Clinton argument, in her website's words:
Hillary has a plan to restore America's middle class. After six and a half years of Bush administration policies, the middle class is struggling to succeed in an economy that is leaving more and more Americans behind.
Income inequality has risen to the highest levels since 1929, and wages have stagnated. In the meantime, health care premiums and college tuition have skyrocketed, squeezing middle-class families who have largely relied on their home equity to make ends meet. The burgeoning problems in the housing market further threaten many middle-class families.
Obama describes it this way on his website:
While wages remain flat, the costs of basic necessities are increasing. The cost of in-state college tuition has grown 35 percent over the past five years. Health care costs have risen four times faster than wages over the past six years. And the personal savings rate is now the lowest it's been since the Great Depression.
For both candidates, the answer to all these problems is a rush of new government programs that makes Lyndon B. Johnson look like Ronald Reagan:"
Enjoy: Land of the free and home of the victims
I too worked my tail off from age 12 (raking leaves and such till I could get working papers at age 16) but that was for my gradeschool and high school tution. I worked during the week and all weekends. And proud as heck for it. And feel better for it. That's why when it came for college, I was just too darn tired. Literally.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I just want all of our children to have as much opportunities as possible. I agree, no handouts, but let's come up with some sort of plan where those that are willing, rich or not rich, obtain higher education, but yes, must pay back in some sort of way.
Those parents who wish there child to go to the more "elite" colleges will then need to pay for it themselves.
Just like grades K through 12, you can opt to attend for free or if you wish other, you have to pay.
Let's try something. Give it an attempt to work before coming up with every reason not to.
Let's meet in the middle.
I worked from 12 on up through college... but I think there should be a balance of responsibility...
My daughters had to work for play money, but school has been her primary job, and helping her be able to focus on this first, and then play money second (including cell phone bill, gas, etc) was a good in between.
Shell pay for school after she grads, and we've assumed a financial obligation as well. In the end.
This is how it should be, a family looking after family. This business about the government paying for education is a Faustian bargain, and really is immoral, stealing from Peter to pay Pam.Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2171
My parents were divorced and Mom had 5 girls... poor Dad.
But I feel so guilty for saying I paid for HS tuition when Mom fed and clothed me an all.
When I worked 1/3 of my pay went to Mom... 1/3 in the bank (that's what covered the HS tuition) and 1/3 she let me keep :).
I did however get a reduction in my tuition because of my circumstanses and the grade school picked up the difference (that didn't make me feel real good, but I am very grateful)
Three of the girls went to live with Dad and the two of us where with Mom (Dad was much less strict :). So that's why I had to pitch in as well.
I wouldn't trade it for anything. Because every little thing I am grateful for because I know how hard it is to come by.
Even back then if college was an option - as I said, I would have passed. It was for many reasons, but my mind just seemed to reject Acadmeics from entering. LOL I am not putting myself down. Religion and English classes I loved... the rest... major brain block.
Love is priceless. When I watch Hillary or Obama or W advocating for more government in education, health care, farming, take your pick, it is not about love. It's about stealing, legal theft. You can wrap and market these programs however you wish, but in the final analysis it's all about April 15: pay or go to jail.
Now govt did help us...Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Loans through the dept of ed for four years. Sure they get some interest, but by the time you wade through the layers, you know they aren't making money... its still taxpayer sponsored in the end. But.. a program that certainly helped reasonably when I needed it.
We didn't get a free ride... we didn't get hammered financially, tho' part of that was reasonable planning on our part.
But we'll just have to see what happens in the next two years when the ripples of the credit crunch keep spreading... isn't over yet... just beginning
I don't think it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a brilliant idea, only thing I would change is "...every..." part because I think only the poor and middle class shouldn't have to pay. Let the Rich put out some cash!! It should be put in effect immediately, because Im going to college this fall :)
I think that it is a good idea, as long as there is an agreement that one has to get certain grades in order to receive the financial aid. Obviously no one deserves to have their college paid for if they're failing classes and just there for the "party experience." I'm a college student right now, I get mostly As and a few Bs, and I receive little financial help at all even though my parents are unable to help me pay for college. When I graduate, just with my undergrad degree, I'll be over $40,000 in debt, all to be educated in something that will ultimately give back to society - it's as if one is paying their future employer. Even if university costs were scaled back quite a bit, to a reasonable amount, would be extremely heplful. It's sad that education is a business now.
No such thing as a "free education " someone is paying for it.
And yet, that's exactly where the "enlightened" want to take us. I've often wondered if they're so enlightened why can't they see the evidence of Socialism's failures that's right in front of their faces? Or is it that they know it and just don't care because it's all about consolidating power? I say it's the latter...Quote:
Socialism doesn't work very well.
Hello speech:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I don't know... We're on the precipice of possibly the WORST DEPRESSION ever experienced by modern man - which was, by the way, caused by the EXCESSES of unfettered capitalism.
That's right in front of your face, and you don't see it.
excon
You have to be drinking or smoking or injecting... ; 'unfettered capitalism'? Show it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
And Socialism is the answer? I have yet to see any "unfettered capitalism" in my lifetime, businesses are regulated out the wazoo. Besides the usual regulatory agencies involved, my place of business has to comply with OSHA, NFPA, MSHA, ANSI, NIOSH, USCG, DOE, State and local fire marshals and perhaps the mother of all governmental agencies aside from the IRS - DOT. You should see what we have to go through to work at the local nuke plant. What "unfettered capitalism" are you referring to, and besides the regulatory failures I acknowledge, perhaps loaning thousands and thousands of dollars to people who can't pay it back would be a good practice to end?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Perhaps if there was some unfettered capitalism then the housing bubble would not have happened. The demand side of the market was created by Congress and the Presidents of the last 2 decades who, with good intentions, tried to make home owners of people who could not afford it.
Really off topic here, but when was anything that the government handed out FREE?
If a person really wants an education it can be done. My oldest daughter went to school full time while holding down a part time job to pay for the school. Was it an ivy league college? Nope. Two years at Community college, followed by her bachelors from another school and now at 38 with two kids she is enrolled in a masters program from a well respected university. Not one cent from mom and dad. Does she have to work hard? You bet, but she has done it all on her own. NO HANDOUTS FROM MR OBAMA EITHER!
The handouts would have been from Bush and his predecessors, not Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
My younger son went to college out of high school, used his savings and also took out four govt loans which he is now paying back thanks to the job his college degree got for him.
Apparently, it won't be a handout. From Obama's web site --Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
"Make college affordable to all Americans:
Obama and Biden will create a new American Opportunity Tax Credit worth $4,000 in exchange for community service. It will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students."
Hello again, 450,Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Then who DID your daughter get her handout from? Your state government? Your city? Do you NOT understand what a "community college" is? I suppose you don't.
You probably think your toothpaste is safe because it was made by a good old American company. But, you'd be wrong about that too. It's safe because some stinkin liberal passed a law to GUARANTEE that it's safe!
But, I digress.
excon
Ah, yes, liberals: and what law would that be? What department of your sacred regulators looks after toothpaste? They are much more interested in what we think, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, George:Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
They're from a little known bureaucracy called the Food and Drug Administration. You probably never heard of 'em.
Damn Democrats!
excon
Koolaid be dammed excon you really are funny. She paid for every credit hour she earned out of her own pocket.
Some people might call them junior colleges because they do not offer a four year degree. But they also do not offer courses in binge drinking, rape, or any other nonsense that has nothing to do with an education and everything to do with keeping tenured professors who do little more than teach one class a semester and drag down hugh sums of money employed.
Why is it you find it hard to fathom that some people have common sense and do not want government in their pockets stealing the money they earn?
Hello again, 450:
Please try to stay focused... I wasn't talking about their CURRICULUM and neither were you. Curriculum is NOT the subject of this thread. This thread is about government subsided education. Toward that end, I was addressing my remarks about how community colleges are FUNDED.
They're HANDED money BY the government to subsidize education... You seem to really HATE that Obama wants to give away your tax money to subsidize education, but your daughter TAKES tax money to subsidize HER education. Yet, you somehow seem to think it's different. You even BOAST that she doesn't take government money.
Well, it's NOT different - not even close.
I ask you again, do you understand community colleges? I don't think you do.
excon
Sounds like a damn Democrat: toothpaste is a food and/or drug.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Deleted
You know excon, if you would quit dipping into that koolaid that you so proudly claim to have not drank, you would understand my point.
Of course I know that colleges are partially supported by my tax dollars. Even though you may think so I am not an idiot. What Mr savior to all is wanting is so far beyond that it is not even funny. His proposals like all others put forth by the socialist left is to take away all incentive to work and instead turn us into a bunch of mind numbed robots AKA communist Russia. Is that what you want for our country? A country founded on the principal "if you work hard, you can rise above your current social and economic status and become anything you set your mind to".
Ummmm, please read up on that a little more. Work and repayment are part of his plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
WG, isn't that what is already available in the form of student loans? Many of which are never paid back by people making large incomes but simply do not or quit paying the loans and the government, our same government who now wants trillions of dollars never goes after?
Do you have stats on how many student loans are defaulted on and how many are paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
I don't understand your point in the "our same government" part of the sentence.
In a press release, Secretary Spellings announced that the FY 2006 national cohort default rate is 5.2 percent. The Department also released a summary of the FY 2006 official cohort default rates by state, by institution type, and a graph showing the trend in national default rates. A briefing on the national default rates was provided with the announcement of the FY 2006 rates.
Give a "free" education to the masses and I would be willing to bet the rate would be closer to 30%
If people who cannot afford to buy a house today were given an education what makes you think they could or would repay student loans? Or more aptly, what sorts of jobs would all these "liberal arts" graduates get? Flipping burgers at micky dees for 8.50 an hour.
Wow! McDonald's pays over $8 an hour?? I should quit my low-paying tax-supported public library job that I've had for 24 years and get onto McD's management team.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But Obama has not promised anything free to anyone.
Really! So what do you call this? "The House of Representatives approved an $819 billion economic stimulus package Wednesday, dealing the new Obama administration a legislative victory...." http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...stimulus-plan/Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And this: Wed. Feb. 13, 2008
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Wednesday signed a multibillion-dollar economic rescue package on Wednesday that means $300 to $1,200 rebates for many American households. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143814/
Like the article says (as per Obama), it's an investment that will produce returns, and is not a gift. Plus there will be checks and balances this time, not like the handout Bush gave, the handout the banks have stuffed into their vaults, the handout no one is benefitting from.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Quote:
Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service
My only question is what exactly 100 hours of "community service?"
Is it in ACORN?
Is it faith based?
------------------------
There is already a needs based program via the late senator Pell.
Also there is the "hope" credit.
There is also military service - don't forget that one.
---------------------------------------------
List of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why don't they suggest that the colleges set aside a certain percentage of their endowment toward reducing tuition? Why should the taxpayor [ that pays for everything the politicians promise ] pay for everything?
Harvard charges about 31 k per year yet they have a 34 billion dollar endowment.
How are the academic big wigs any different than the wallstreet tycoons or auto execs?
G&P
Probably similar to what I supervise -- unpaid volunteer work. I also supervise unpaid work by court-ordered offenders (30-275 hrs.). They wash adult and children's library shelves (i.e. wash each shelf after moving the books onto a cart, dry the shelf, return the books to the shelf in the correct order), damp-wipe rotating paperback racks, damp-wipe the magazine shelves, clean interior glass, clean gunk and adhesives off children's dept. windows and glass walls, wash bathroom walls and stalls walls and doors, pick up trash and dumped cigarette butts off the library parking lot and property, keep the outdoor drains free of debris, shovel snow, keep the walkways and handicapped parking spaces free of snow and ice, separate and dump paper recyclables from trash, process books and other library materials, polish the bronze plaques throughout the library, clean each leaf on all our silk and live plants (they get very dusty from all the patron comings and goings), check the inventory list for each book in the library, clean all the toys in the children's dept. clean the thousands of DVDs and music CDs and audio (book) CDs, cut down cardboard boxes for recycling, clean all public-use and staff computer screens and mice and desktops and furniture, clean with Murphy's soap all library furniture wood (oak), clean all interior stairwells both public and "hidden" (used during tornado warnings, etc.), tie up the oldest magazines that have been withdrawn, haul withdrawn because outdated or unread-for-five-years books to the Dumpster... I'm sure there's more...Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
I have a five-page checklist of work that must be done daily, weekly, monthly, and occasionally.
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