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Originally Posted by Athos

It's a simple concept. You will need to elaborate on this comment.

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The palestinians become stateless person by their own volition, instead of using peaceful means to gain ascendency in the longer term

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At the same risk, you refuse to understand that the UN had no right to remove a population from their lands to award those lands to a different population. What is so hard for you to grasp?

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what you fail to grasp is the UN removed noone. The UN legitimised a situation that already existed

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Who did the lands belong to? Martians?

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see you are resorting to the rediculous. Before the British mandate, the land belonged to the Ottoman's (Turks) who took it from the arabs, so the arabs had not "owned" it for centuries. They were allowed to have a largely nomadic existence under the Ottomans. I suppose that you consider they owned Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon too

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It IS/WAS Arab land exclusively! Whose do you think it was? Martians again?

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I think the Turks would have an opinion on that. The arabs have as much chance of reconquering the land as we have of conquering Mars

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This is so mind-bogglingly stupid, it is impossible to reply to it.

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yes discussions of martians usually is


What I am saying is your argument is blatantly anti semetic or blatantly semetic depending on which side of the genetic fence you sit. You cannot argue for the arabs without arguing for the jews, they are each one side of the same coin. I am personally happy the jews were returned to their ancestral homeland and I cannot argue against their occupancy for the same reason I cannot argue against my own occupancy of this continent. I am continually confronted by the argument this is aboriginal land in the same way you confront the jews with the argument that it is arab land. Neither argument is valid

Isn't it just like the humans with power, authority and influence to carve things up the way they see fit? The UN as a body is no different, and decides things according to the inner machinations of its most influential members. Maybe it sounded good then, when the decision was made, but sure could stand some tweaking now since the affected parties can agree on a solution on their own so the underdog Palestinians, absent big brothers, allies, and backers like the Israelis Have fewer less appealing options.

A decided and maybe unfair imbalance for sure.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Isn't it just like the humans with power, authority and influence to carve things up the way they see fit? The UN as a body is no different, and decides things according to the inner machinations of its most influential members. Maybe it sounded good then, when the decision was made, but sure could stand some tweaking now since the affected parties can agree on a solution on their own so the underdog Palestinians, absent big brothers, allies, and backers like the Israelis Have fewer less appealing options.

A decided and maybe unfair imbalance for sure.

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If the palestinians agreed to live peacefully there would be no issues eventually, walling off the west bank has considerably reduced conflict but while ever Hamas seeks the annilihation of the jews the problem cannot be resolved. What needs to be done is gaza bulldozed and its inhabitants relocated, a territory swap so the palestinians could have contiguous territory

The Palestinians didn't want to live peacefully under Israeli rules. Still don't. Even a rat fights back when cornered, and out numbered.

speaking of a two state solution each with defendable borders, tal, as things are now the palestinians are divided a situation neither party wants

The Palestinians have always been a loose collection of settlements making them ripe for conquest and exploitation. The perfect target for conquerors and bullies. We wouldn't be here if they could defend themselves from Israeli expansion.

Come to think of it Clete, non of us would be here if the natives could defend themselves against the invaders to their lands. Guess we can't blame the Israeli's from doing what every other sovereign nation has done before, and still doing.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

The palestinians become stateless person by their own volition, instead of using peaceful means to gain ascendency in the longer term

I am personally happy the jews were returned to their ancestral homeland and I cannot argue against their occupancys

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I started my usual rebuttal of your nonsense when it occurred to me this is going nowhere. As I previously said, you just repeat your falsehoods until it gets really tiresome. The facts are blindingly obvious, yet you refuse to see them. What in the world is going on with you?

Then I got it! A tipoff was your "personal happiness" when "the jews were returned to their ancestral homeland".

The answer lies in your Bible belief which has nothing to do with the facts. In your view, the Bible says the Jews will return to Palestine which they now call Israel. The prophecy promises the Jews will be converted after a Jewish state is established, and after the Second Coming of Jesus. This will occur only after the Jews have their own nation/state. Maybe other reasons also, but the point is made - your Bible tells you so.

A part of Christian Protestantism - fundamentalists - have made an unfortunate agreement among themselves that God is to be replaced by the Bible. Clearly a violation of the First Commandment, but the evangelical fundamentalist community would never see it that way. How could they? To them, the Bible IS God.

(Oddly, Catholic Christianity has done something similar. In their case, they have replaced God with Mother Church. This is particularly true among the clergy - not all, but a goodly fraction.)

You should know that the Jews are very aware of this silliness, but are willing to accept it in return for the support it offers to Israel.

I think we can now end this seemingly endless discussion.

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I think we can now end this seemingly endless discussion.

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by all means; our discussion was fruitless. I don't accept your contentions regarding the Palestinians or the Church. Christians do not worship the Bible or the Church

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Christians do not worship the Bible or the Church

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Of course, too many do, thus the yelling and screaming about having to wear masks and social distance when attending church services. Far too often I've read about ministers who reassure their members, "God will protect you from Covid-19."

Church is believers, not a building. Matthew 16:18.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Christians do not worship the Bible or the Church

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"Worship" is the wrong word. If it were that obvious, there'd be no debate. The situation is more subtle than that.

Here's an example: In the Catholic Church child abuse sex scandal, it doesn't take a theologian to know that God would want the abuse to stop and for the offenders to receive their just desserts. Instead, these criminals were transferred to other parishes to save Mother Church from the notoriety of a major scandal. Mother Church was placed above God.

As for the fundamentalists and the Middle East conflict, God would surely have wanted a solution that was fair to the Israelites and fair to the Palestinians. However, the solution turned out to be a "might makes right" solution. Not an answer God would have given. The fundamentalists support this answer because it reflects a Bible prophecy concerning the end times. The Bible was placed above God.

Do I speak for God? Of course not. All I do is try to discern what are obvious principles of morality while ignoring the politics of any given moment.

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Originally Posted by Athos

As for the fundamentalists and the Middle East conflict, God would surely have wanted a solution that was fair to the Israelites and fair to the Palestinians. However, the solution turned out to be a "might makes right" solution. Not an answer God would have given. The fundamentalists support this answer because it reflects a Bible prophecy concerning the end times. The Bible was placed above God.

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And that prophecy has been majorly taken out of context.

and the swamp wins again. Clinesmith got a slap on the wrist by FISA judge James Boasberg for intentionally altering evidence . He ADMITTED to falsifying the evidence !! Boasberg sentenced Clinesmith to 12 months probation and 400 hrs community service.

His reasoning is preposterous . Clinesmith changed an email confirming Carter Page had been a CIA source to one that said the exact opposite....explicitly forging the words “not a source” before he forwarded it. Clinesmit's hatred of Trump is obvious. Don't forget that Mueller pulled him from the investigation after Horowitz found text messages from Clinesmith expressing hatred of Trump. When Trump won he texted 'the crazies had won' . In another text he wrote 'viva la resistance ' The idiot judge gave him the light sentence because he reasoned Clinesmith LIKELY BELIEVED his alterations were the truth and therefore it was an honest mistake .

As Quid likes to say 'come on man' !!! You want to know why I don't respect the judiciary ....here is an example . George Papadopoulos made false statements and served jail time . Judge Sullivan refused to drop charges against Michael Flynn even after the DOJ had dropped the charges .

So if someone lies to the FBI they get hounded and end up in jail . But if an FBI attorney lies to FISA .....aint no big thing !