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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Edit: Yes sir, I knew this. If the minimum wage was such a wonderful anti-poverty tool, why did the White House cave?

Keep spinning it however you want, my point remains solid as a rock.

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Your thesis exists on a false premise. One of the strongest economies in the world exists within the strong control of pay rates through government enforced administration and minimum pay standards. Was there pain in putting it into place? Yes, are there things we don't manufacture anymore? Yes, is unemployment endemic, NO! Contrast this with your own circumstance.

Your problems exist because of porous borders and a slave owing exploitative mentality, not minimum pay standards

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Your problems exist because of porous borders and a slave owing exploititive mentality, not minimum pay standards

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Yes, those porous borders of Samoa are a pressing issue. Don't you have your own problems to deal with?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Yes, those porous borders of Samoa are a pressing issue. Don't you have your own problems to deal with?

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Yes we have some porous borders in the region of Christmas Island too, but those illegals don't cause employment problems, as to problems, what problems?

The only problems we have with indigenous Australians is how to integrate them into the workforce, most of our unemployment is the long term unemployment associated with people who have opted out. Our society just doesn't have employment for those who's skills are more attuned to the stone age and hunter-gathering. The bleeding hearts overseas don't like to hear of kangaroo and camel culls, which these people could do effectively and it comes with a minimum wage. Doging also pays well. They have free places available in university but how to get them to reach the educational level where they can avail themselves of it is beyond our advanced technology. Fact is my boomerang won't come back! And it is a big problem

SO I tell you what, you solve my problems and I'll solve yours. No Plucking Worries Mate!

Got to love it... it's like that cloud that follows Eyore . Everywhere they attempt to hold one of these climate pow-wows the weather follows them around throwing monkey feces at their logic and rationale.

Gore Effect Strikes Cancun Roy Spencer, Ph. D.

The old previous record low was bested by 4 degrees F .
Here are existing Record Lows and Forecast Lows in upcoming days:

Today: 53 °F (2003)
Forecast: 51°F

Thursday: 60 °F (2000)
Forecast: 59°F

Friday: 60 °F (1999)
Forecast: 55°F

Saturday: 57 °F (2003)
Forecast: 53°F

Sunday: 55 °F (2008)
Forecast: 51°F

Double down on that Tequila! Got to keep warm!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Everywhere they attempt to hold one of these climate pow-wows the weather follows them around throwing monkey feces at their logic and rationale.

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Hello tom:

If I didn't understand science, I'd look around and say they're throwing monkey crap at the logic and rational of the people who say the earth is round.. After all, you can plainly SEE that it's perfectly flat.

excon

Hello again, tom:

Yes, I have more to say...

I understand you object to the idea of man made global warming. I don't know if that belief is inspired by your religious views or your political views. I suppose I could include in that list your views on education, but I can't believe that anybody, in this day and age, totally rejects the field of science. Yet, the essence of your posts appear to do just that...

I wonder what the objective of your position is. I think it boils down to protecting the oil companies AND the way of life they provide... I think you perceive that global warming advocates attack your way of life, and if they prevail, your way of life will DECLINE.

If we weren't running out of oil, I'd agree with you... But, that fact alone means your way of life WILL automatically decline if we don't find a replacement for oil. The left wing isn't responsible for this fact. Al Gore didn't invent that fact. It's just so.

If your objective in this debate is to prevent government from investing into the exploration of THAT replacement, you're hastening the very decline you purport to want to preserve...

If your objective in this debate is to confirm your religious views, then no argument I could make would convince you... If your objective is to indict science, or how science is taught, I don't know how to counter that.. Or maybe you only reject THIS part of science... I don't know. I only know you object.

Please forgive me for putting words into your mouth if I did. But, I really don't know what you have to say about it, except that you object. Help me out here.

excon

Did it ever occure to you that the basis of my objection is that the science itself is flawed and corrupted... that in fact it is this consensus thinking by the leading climatologists that more resembles a religious view than my scepticism ?
That the most probable reason for this consensus thinking is because the scientist are supporting the views of those who butter their bread ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Did it ever occure to you that the basis of my objection is that the science itself is flawed and corrupted ..

That the most probable reason for this consensus thinking is because the scientist are supporting the views of those who butter their bread ?

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Hello again, tom:

It DID occur to me tom. That's why I included an indictment of science itself in the list... You confirmed it...

We disagree. Oh, I don't disagree that SOME scientists misrepresent science in order to pad their own pockets... The lying SOB scientists who worked for the tobacco companies come to mind.

And, I don't disagree that science makes mistakes...

But, to say that a world wide CONSENSUS of scientists willingly CORRUPT their science because of their benefactors, strains the bounds of credulity. It's an indictment of the entire FIELD of science... I just don't believe that a WORLD WIDE CONSENSUS of scientists are going to prostitute their life's work. I just don't believe it. You DO understand, that science is ABOUT the pursuit of truth. THAT is their product. It's the ONLY thing they make. Otherwise, they're just PR hacks.

Which brings me to my other question... WHERE did you learn to distrust science? My bet it was in church. Certainly, they don't teach that in school... Besides, if you DON'T trust a CONSENSUS on science, on what do you rely when you take a pill or fly in an airplane?

excon

Scepticism is the very foundation of science. I learned that in science classes I've taken through college. My church does not teach a divide between science and religion. It occures to me that often it is the opposite... that it is certain scientists that are intolerant to religion. Oh yes I agree it is reciprocal with some religions ,but not mine.

But back to climate science. You may not have noticed;but the link I posted is from a former NASA PHD climatologist who is also a skeptic of AGW. Certainly you are not saying his observations are clouded in anti-science prejudices ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the link I posted is from a former NASA PHD climatologist who is also a skeptic of AGW. Certainly you are not saying his observations are clouded in anti-science prejudices ?

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Hello again, tom:

Please... I bring a WORLD WIDE CONSENSUS. You bring ONE guy.

excon

It would be too time consuming to list the scientists who are skeptics... Suffice it to say that momentum is moving in their favor . The legitimate science just doesn't support the consensus ;and the consensus scientists ,led by the Goracle ,have failed at their Torquemada-like purges and demonization of anyone opposed to them .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

led by the Goracle ,have failed at their Torquemada-like purges and demonization of anyone opposed to them .

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Hello again, tom:

I'm just asking questions here...

excon

I didn't say you .I said "consensus scientists" (which could be the oxymoron of the year)

I wonder if they even read any of this stuff??


Earth may be entering a new Ice Age

Science: Another Ice Age? - TIME

"Mini Ice Age" May Be Coming Soon, Sea Study Warns

Real scientists' real fear: the coming ice age

Here you go, Ex, All you need to know about Mann-made global warming in one poster.

SO Ex you idea is that the majority is always right? I expect you are somewhat miffed that the majority has spoken in favour of not supporting your political views.

You have tangled up your myths and you are in favour of economic collapse just so we can solve some mythical problems, Peak oil, if it exists, will be with us soon enough and solutions will emerge even if that includes the use of existing technology such as the bicycle and eating what is produced locally. Climate changes, did the Romans worry about why it was hotter, no they got on with conquering the world, so did Ghengis Khan, but we have developed the chicken little ideas of the Chinese and want to build barriers to our problems, to overcome the invading CO2. Our economies should not be turned over to solving problems we cannot surmount but dealing with real issues.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You have tangled up your myths and you are in favour of economic collapse just so we can solve some mythical problems, Peak oil, if it exists,

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Hello again, clete:

Well, ONE of us is tangled up. We're running out of oil You're not sure. I want to do something to AVOID the surprise you seem willing to endure... If you want to see a collapse, do NOTHING.

excon

Ah ex, you rithe from one myth to another. We are running out of oil, not because it doesn't exist in abundance, but because we restrict our access to it to placate those same people who would have us decimate our economies trying to prevent something which even if we stopped burning fossil fuels right now, would, they tell us, continue for a hundred years.

We have listened to the myths and every time they revise their opinion, please note I said opinion, the calamity they predicted previously has somehow been miraculously averted, not because of timely action, but because of inaccurate data and modelling which rendered their hypothesis as myth.

True science relies on proven data and reliable testing of hypothesis, but what we have here is the pseudo science of the environmental lobby. Now the data in my possession tells me that what we are trying to overcome is short term natural trend. Has the link between temperate rise and CO2 been conclusively proven by correlation. Ie; more CO2, more temperature. No! It hasn't excepting in a laboratory. The reason is that there are in nature as there are in life, mitigating factors that cannot be predicted.

I have more concern regarding the effect of supervolcanoes and plate tectonics than I have on the effect of CO2 induced climate change. I have seen the predictions for North America, why waste your time trying to control the weather?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Has the link between temperate rise and CO2 been conclusively proven by correlation. ie; more CO2, more temperature. No! it hasn't excepting in a laboratory. The reason is that there are in nature as there are in life, mitigating factors that cannot be predicted.

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Actually yes it has been proven. And it was part of the model that the scientists used. But in this case it was a runaway situation. The so called greenhouse effect is attributed to not this planet but to Venus. And that along with the data and theory from a scientist in the late 50's is where all this began. But at that time it was put out there to avoid an ice age (go figure). It was proposed that to increase the levels of CO2 gases could prevent us from having one. I remember from my childhood being told of a coming iceage.

So what I want to know is when is Goldielocks going to come along and tell us things are just right?

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

So what I want to know is when is Goldielocks going to come along and tell us things are just right?

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Now Cal you know that is in noone's interest to do that. Without a crisis it isn't possible to get anything done.

It is quite possible that we will have another iceage when the great conveyor shuts down because of Global Warming. Oh wait! Report just in, that's not going to happen. Shucks! Another crisis averted.

Do you know why we haven't got this thing licked? We haven't declared a war on climate change. We must employ the ultimate solution immediately. Ridiculous isn't it? But in fact that is the proposal before us.